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Ross: No. 1 receiver top offseason priority

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Serpico Jones, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    All players are trying to become their number one, you don't need someone upstairs telling you what your not in public..

    True or not, to a player, an owner doesn't know sh&$ about the game, all it does is create culture problems..

    Hartline is in a contract year, this is his livelihood, he doesn't need someone within the organization who doesn't know the game well enough, devaluing him..

    Now if it was said three weeks ago, Hartline coming off no camp and severe injuries, maybe he just blurted it out because he thought the unit was in dire straits, like a lot of folks did..

    Idk, I just don't think it's right from a chemistry standpoint, I want the players to want to play here and I feel things like this can disrupt a feeling of loyalty.
     
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  2. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    Talking about his age and that statement is what makes it seem more likely.
     
  3. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    I can't see it affecting them at all, tbh.
     
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  4. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    You are acting like he said he wants to replace Hartline or Bess. He just said he wants a #1 WR. Its the NFL, its a business. If people get their feelings hurt they are in the wrong business. What's your stance on hurting Sparano's or Matt Moore's feelings? Can you tell me any upgrade you want then tell me if you care about the feelings that are currently playing positions that you want upgraded? Let's not over react here. We all love what Bess and Hartline are doing and we all know we don't have a true #1 WR and we need one. Bess and Hartline will still be on the team when we get a #1 WR.
     
  5. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Just b/c Philbin wants to spread the ball around, it doesn't mean he's carefree about the talent & playmaking/scoring ability at WR, and just b/c Ross wants a top playmaking receiver [or #1 receiver as is often easier stated], it doesn't mean the WR has to catch 100+ passes and interfere with Philbin's offensive philosophy.

    Mike Wallace & Greg Jennings are playmaking #1 receiver types in the sense that Ross is referring to, but they don't need to eat a huge chunk of the offensive distribution to have an impact, nor Dwayne Bowe for that matter who caught 72 passes in 2010.... but for 1162 yards & 15 TDs. Nelson last year caught 68 for 1263 & 15 TDs, and that was in Philbin's offense.
     
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  6. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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    Has he really? Interesting. Thanks for the headsup.
     
  7. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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    I think the problem is the label "no. 1 receiver." I don't think Philbin or any coach would be opposed to upgrading the talent of any position on their team, labels aside. If Ireland can get a player who will improve the WR corps I doubt Philbin would oppose that. Would the Dolphins turn down elite talent at WR just because of a label we want to slap on a player? I have a hard time believing that, personally.
     
  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But Philbin won with Greg Jennings, who imo is a clear cut top 8 receiver..very talented player..
     
  9. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The problem isn't that they don't want the talent. If Calvin Johnson shows up at the doorstep, willing to play for little money, obviously they would take him. The problem is how much are they willing to pay for the talent.

    If Philbin wants the offense to spread the ball around, then there is a legitimate case that the team shouldn't break the bank to acquire a WR. You generally don't want to spend $30M+ on a WR that is going to receive ~5 targets per game. If you're spreading the ball around, that money would be better allocated elsewhere.
     
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  10. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    Spot on.

    All the "Number 1's" are behind in in yards right now.

    I don't agree with labeling the positions. It happens too much now.
     
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  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That doesn't change the dynamic that Philbin was on the same squad and won the Super Bowl with a player that had top 5 talent at the position, along with a very talented and emerging # 1 in jordy Nelson...
     
  12. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Well-Known Member

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    You are right in that this team won't break the bank for a wide receiver. I think this fanbase, and maybe even Ross are expecting a huge free agency due to all the cap space. Philbin has said many times that in Green Bay they never went crazy after FA's and instead chose to draft their players. I think Philbin really believes in this philosophy and I expect our free agency period is mostly spend resigning guys with maybe one or two pickups. However I think it is a good possibility we draft a wide receiver fairly early.
     
  13. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Mike Wallace, Jordy Nelson, and Greg Jennings aren't being paid very much by their respective teams. None of them were selected in the first round.

    Its really a false choice to suggest they don't want talent. The choice is what resources are they going to allocate to someone that isn't getting a high proportion of targets.
     
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't see it this way. First off it's a challenge to the player and that's not a bad thing. You want to be considered that kind of player? Make the plays. Don't drop the ball. When you catch a ball a yard away from the end zone and you'd being tackled solo by a DB, push for the extra yard like Reggie Wayne did, like Rishard Matthews did in preseason. When Ryan Tannehill hits you perfect off the scramble for a would-be touchdown, catch it. When you get hit with a perfect double-move pass, dig deep and run under it, run for the score. When your number is called 7 times and you're facing Antonio Cromartie instead of Darrelle Revis, why are you only catching 1 ball?

    NOTICE that the very week after Steve Ross made those comments to every single employee in the Dolphins building, Brian Hartline went out and had the biggest yardage week any Miami receiver has ever had.

    I don't think stuff like that has the negative consequences you imagine.
     
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  15. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Fair enough.

    But let's look at what Joe Philbin allegedly said.

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...ong-struggling-for-miami-dolphins-this-season

    This caught my eye earlier this week. It's an article about how Jake Long is struggling. But this line jumped out at me.

    Did Joe Philbin really say that? If so, it looks like all 3 are ragging on our players.
     
  16. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I don't think anyone would argue with acquiring a top-5 talent at WR. I think the argument is what you are willing to spend acquiring that talent, in relation to what you are willing to spend acquiring talent at other positions.
     
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  17. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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    So we agree that it isn't a question of talent but rather allocation of money? I'm OK with that. Personally, I wouldn't be upset with them forking out big bucks for an elite talent but I'm not the one in charge. As long as this team puts out the best possible product I am happy.
     
  18. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, but we have certain needs as well. Mike Wallace is phenomenal at what he does, but what he does is very limited. He runs a very limited route tree, he's not going to help our perceived red-zone passing issues, and he's going to be very expensive.

    Greg Jennings I think is a solid possibility, but I think it's pretty likely that the Dolphins would prefer to lock down their own free agents and find a receiver in the draft. They've got 5 "early picks", I think it's pretty likely they address it there.

    I'm said what I said with Greg Jennings in mind. Greg Jennings does not get that many balls thrown to him.

    Per PFF he's averaged 113 targets the last 4 complete years. There are about 20 guys a year who get that, more if you add in tight ends.
     
  19. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I think people take the whole "spreading the ball around,​ and no need for a top (or #1) receiver too literally", and I say that b/c the NFL only allows 11 offensive guys on the field per play, and, considering this offense frequently uses either 2 TE formations or TE/FB, it means we often have only 2 receivers on the field at a time...... and those should be our best 2 receivers. Therefore the passing distribution will be skewed despite having an offense predicated upon spreading the ball around.
     
  20. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't see the problem at all. He said this before the Arizona game, when WR was a huge question mark. Even with the recent emergence of Brian Hartline, an upgrade needs to be made as the depth at the position is terrible.
     
  21. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he would've fired Philbin under similar circumstances.
     
  22. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    so? I never said the position could only be solved with a 1st rounder.

    I never suggested they don't want talent. Quite the opposite.
     
  23. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    First, one can't rely on what Philbin says publicly about what he wants or doesn't want. This has no bearing. As with most coaches he will skirt the issue. WHen you don't have a #1 you are going to say, "we don't need one" to keep confidence up - so, of course, Philbin is going to say they don't want or need a #1 in his scheme when he doesn't have a #1! (Or when it is uncertain they will be able to find one). He is going to talk about what he wants based on what he has to keep the other WR's confident.

    And, even with a #1 WR (a Fitzgerald type) the system is still going to scatter the ball around and find the open man. GB had a #1 in Driver in the recent past and then in Jennings; but in each case other WR's had to step up and were highly productive (e.g., Nelson) so much so that Jennings did not need to be relied upon as much last year. That is the ideal - to have so many multiple options that the defense cannot key on one or two. This is what made GB's offense so potent last year as well as the Patriots with their two TE's (if they had a deep threat at WR they might have won the SB).

    Philbin's philosophy (as with GB) still stands - in terms of having multiple options with which to attack a defense.
     
  24. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Whether you agree or disagree what Ross purportedly said, this can only serve to motivate Bess and Hartline.
     
  25. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    No, that doesn't really seem to be the argument. Did you listen to Ross? He said the top offseason priority is a receiver. I didn't hear him say he wants to address the receiver position with whatever money is left over after addressing everything else.

    With 3 picks in the first 2 rounds to "acquire talent at other positions" and the reduced rookie wage scale to make it highly affordable, we certainly have more freedom to spend some of that $60 million on a receiver.
     
  26. RickyWilliams34

    RickyWilliams34 New Member

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    It's about time.
     
  27. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I don't consider Greg Jennings as being anywhere close to a "top 5 talent" at the position. Probably not top 20. He's a good player, but is nothing special physically in terms of size, strength, speed, jumping ability, quickness, agility/change of direction, etc. In terms of "talent," not production, he is nowhere near CJ, Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, AJ Green, Julio Jones, Roddy White, Percy Harvin, Brandon Marshall, Vincent Jackson, Desean Jackson, Mike Wallace, etc.
     
  28. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    I just said what I said because I remember people arguing that Ireland never addressed this need because Philbin didn't want it. All I am sayinng is that there's proof that Ireland wants to address the issue and now we see that Ross wants the same thing. I just don't think we were in a good position to fill that need this year and last off season. We are in a much better place to fill that need next off season and that's when we will. I just think its absurd to think it wasn't done because Philbin didn't want it.
     
  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    yes, and receiver is the most significant one.
    He's not limited at scoring, creating on his own, picking up serious chunk yardage, or keeping a defense more honest.

    That's a fair point.... although, IMO, with his speed & talent, he doesn't have to run a full route tree to be more effective than a guy who does [need to run a full route tree]. Case in point, since their 2009 rookie years:

    [TABLE="width: 600"]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD]


    Targets
    [/TD]
    [TD]


    Catches
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]

    Completion

    %
    [/TD]
    [TD]


    TD
    [/TD]
    [TD]


    Yards
    [/TD]
    [TD]


    yards/attempt
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]

    1st downs
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]
    1st down
    %
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]


    YAC
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Wallace:[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]315[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]190[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]60.3[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]27[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3457[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]11.0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]140[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]44.4%[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]1059[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: center"]Hartline:[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]248[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]138[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]55.6[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"] 6[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2184[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"] 8.8[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]101[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]40.7%[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]619[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    Respectfully, please tell me where Wallace's "limited route tree" seems to affect his performance & success.

    Sure he will. He helps it by scoring 25 TDs before you even get to it, so if we're having trouble in the redzone, the easiest way to avoid it is to score before you even get there. Just sayin.

    I agree that this route is most likely, and I agree with this approach, but if the money is available, as is a quality receiver, it'd be hard to ignore it, considering we can in turn use those high picks to bolster other areas of the team.

    ..... and just like Mike Wallace who also doesn't get many balls thrown his way, they're both still highly productive, which is great b/c we need a guy or two who can produce in 70 catches what most of the league would need 100+.
     
  30. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    While I mainly agree, just need to point out that this was a *no* media event. In house employees only. And they were probably told not to repeat anything outside of the meeting.

    The truth is, Ross is probably beginning to understand he says things that are 'dumb' from the perspective of public perception. He can;t seem to change his ability to not say this things, but give him enough credit that he has stopped saying them in public. He tried to say them behind closed doors this time.

    lol.
     
  31. LandShark13

    LandShark13 New Member

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    It could also serve to up the asking price on any potential trade knowing the owner maybe forcing the GMs hand. As I said earlier this sort of stuff doesn't need to be said publicly. Ross should just keep his pie hole shut.
     
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I hope not..I worry about things like this because I feel for the player..I know I wouldn't want to hear that if I'm part of a team, I'd want to be judged fairly at the end of the season, not the first game in..and at this point, if I'm Hartline, and I'm playing like the receiver Ross is describing, there's a bit of animosity, I worry that it could sway a tough decision down the line..

    I'm probably over analyzing, I just don't see any good coming out of it, but your thoughts on how it could motivate a player makes some sense.
     
  33. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Seemingly oblivious to the far greater impact HIM saying it has. It's like he is clueless. Like a ******ed pet elephant who loves you and crushes you out of affection.

    I'm more and more of the opinion that he is a buffo.

     
  34. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    When they talk about football, it sounds like they have a clue.

    Ross sounds like a teenager. Reactive.

    Rafael nailed it in that he sounds like a fan. But an emotional, impatient fan imo. The child-like fan who thinks we are going to the Superbowl when we score any touchdown.

    Head + Bone = Big-Boned Head.
     
  35. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    To be fair (and I am not a fan of Ross) it was a closed door, eployees only, no media meeting. Those are often necessary to keep corporate culture. Keep everyone in the company on the same page.

    The real problem in THIS instance is not Ross. It's the RAT.

    I still don;t like Ross as an owner though.
     
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  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I understand that Stringer, but when you win a title with a certain type of player, at a certain position, I would think that you would want to duplicate the blueprint?

    I would think Ireland's thought process has to be trying to figure out if He can win with two Bess's and two Hartlines, over one Bess, one Hart, and an alpha dog, because if He can, it allows him to use the great value for which he aquired them and build elsewhere..

    One thought that I have that I Can't quite figure out how to express yet, is how a GM feels about getting two receivers, with this kind of production and character, at the slot that he did..I'm not sure if we're really looking at what an achievement that is and how it relates to building a team, and not overspending on a position.
     
  37. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Agree... BUT:

    1) It was said two weeks ago. Before Arizona or Cinci.
    2) It was NOT said in public. It was a company meeting for employees only. A rat leaked the info.
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'll disagree with ya here bro, but I'm speaking about who he was when Philbin coached for them during their championship, I'm on record a few years talking about Jennings emerging into a star when no one was really doing so, I think it's fair to say he became a pro bowl player top,5 to 8 imo, my argument was always that he was a lot more talented and explosives then people thought.

    He's thirty now, with some injuries, so your list looks better to me now, but if we're talking about in their prime, I'm not taking Marshall, Vincent Jackson, over Jennings, and Julio was in college.
     
  39. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I think it more likely confirms the theory of Philbin not wanting a No. 1 and Ireland doing what Philbin has wanted. This town hall meeting happened just a few weeks ago, not during or before last offseason. I'm pretty sure if Ross had announced last offseason that the No. 1 priority was an Alpha receiver we would have at least made a contract offer to one. And if Ireland and Philbin are fully on board with needing an Alpha receiver, why is Ross having a town hall meeting of employees 2-3 weeks into the season to set that out as the top priority for next offseason?
     
  40. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    to maintain fan interest?
     

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