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What Happened to the Running Game?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by shouright, Oct 14, 2012.

  1. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The running game went where the offensive line went. Nowhere.

    Fisher is a good coach. He game-planned for us correctly. He stuffed the box and left his backs to cover our receivers one on one; which, frankly, isn't hard to do. What happened is that his offense let him down and two receivers got open on two plays.
     
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  2. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    And I certainly agree with that. I'm not removing blame from the offensive line completely, hence the title of the thread, which is very general in nature.

    But, when you're getting thrown for losses as often as Reggie is, and your style gets in the way of picking up just one yard to kill clock and win a game two weeks in a row, you need to adjust your style IMO.

    It could also very well be the case that Reggie Bush simply does not run well in the NFL unless he has an offensive line that opens up the kinds of gaping holes we saw the first two weeks of this season. He could be the kind of guy who either needs to see a gaping hole right away, or he tries to do too much to "create" on his own and ends up being counterproductive.

    He has to realize, for example, that when the offense needs just a yard to kill clock, he probably isn't going to get a gaping hole, because the defense is going to be selling out to stop the run, and he's going to have to pound it in there to help the team. If he repeatedly can't do that, he needs to sit down on those occasions IMO, for the benefit of the team.
     
  3. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    I don't think the receivers were covered one-on-one. I think Hartline was bracketed by one safety, and the other safety was in the box, hence Marlon Moore's much-bigger-than-usual day, which included the wide open touchdown.

    Fisher gambled and lost, and Tannehill and Marlon Moore beat him. Philbin also beat him on the fake punt and with halftime adjustments that included screens all the way down the field to open the second half, which set up the TD to Fasano.
     
  4. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I hear what you're saying, believe me, I do. However, I think you're choosing to focus too much on one player. You end your post there with really, all that needs to be said. Reggie isn't the kind of runner that's going to pound the ball inside for a tough yard or two. It's not him. Everyone knows it. Yet we continued to try it. Instead of Miller, or Lane. Reggie to me, is a guy who can run between the tackles, but there's got to be room. If theres not, reggie looks for space outside, which is fine. However in those situations where you just want him to run into the back of a pile and try and move it, thats not him. It's never going to be. So, his instincts kick in to do whatever he knows his strengths are to try and get yardage. IMO, its on the coaching staff more than it is Reggie. Reggie is the type of runner he is, we should have been giving the ball in those situations to someone else. Do you want Reggie to put his shoulders down in that situation and give her hell... absolutely. So, I get what you're saying. It's just... not going to happen though. Its not his fault he's in there on those situations, but really, there was nowhere to go in those situations either. Even if Lane got that carry, or DT if he was healthy, we probably still wouldnt have gained those yards. The OL just got destroyed. They knew we were going to run it, they stuffed the box, they outplayed us up front all day. It is what it is really.

    Like I said earlier, what needs to happen is we need to get a bit more vertical with our passing game, get that ball downfield more, rather than these little 5 yard routes. Just open things up some more again, and I think we'll see the running game is just fine. Right now, teams are playing us to shut down the run, and let RT beat us. If Zuerline doesn't miss 3 FG's, they would have beat us. They dominated us really. Most times, we've got 6 guys in to block assuming there's either a FB, or TE on the field, it appears opposing D's are stacking withe box with 8, well guess what, thats man on man, with two extra's for the D to stuff the running lanes. It's over from there. Nobody is going to get positive yards. It's a combination of everything, not just one thing.
     
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  5. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Marlon Moore didnt really beat anyone on that play. The corner, Jenkins (I believe it was) was looking in the backfield and playing run. He essentially stood still and basically didn't even look at Moore as Moore ran by him because he was looking to play run 100% on that play. Jenkins beat himself, Tannehill and Moore made the easy play.

    It's a perfect example of teams gameplanning on D, to take out the run, because they dont take our short passing game serious enough. We need to open it up a bit more, or have guys get better separation. Hopefully Gaffney joining after the bye week (I hope) helps solve this problem.
     
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  6. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Then I think they should be looking for another starter, because it goes beyond those one-yard situations and to the idea that Bush may not be the right kind of guy for a zone blocking scheme, where the idea is to make one cut and head north and south.

    Denver under Shanahan used a ZBS for years and succeeded with just about any running back they put in there (e.g., Mike Anderson). As easy as it is to succeed with a running back who runs the way the scheme dictates, the last thing you want is a guy whose style is so poorly suited to it that you don't succeed.
     
  7. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Right, but there was also no saftey help on that side of the field, presumably because one safety was bracketing Hartline on the other side of the field, and the other safety was in the box. The corner may have erred, but there was nobody there to bail him out because the gameplan was to stop Hartline and the running game. If that's your gameplan, then you leave yourself susceptible to paying big in response to those kinds of errors by your corners.

    I think on the contrary it's that they aren't taking our deep passing game seriously enough, because there isn't anybody on the other side of the field who can make them pay when they bracket Hartline and put eight in the box to stop the run. Marlon Moore made them pay once like that yesterday, but it took an error from the corner to make it happen. With a better deep threat opposite Hartline, we could make them pay all day for defending us that way.
     
  8. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Running game has been pretty bad since Bush got injured. He hasn't had the same burst. Hopefully a weeks rest will help him get some of his burst back.
     
  9. Dolphins1Beatles

    Dolphins1Beatles Ziggy Stardust

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    They hopefully get it together during the bye week, and get healthy as well. Would like to see Miller used against the Jets.

    I doubt you'll see a player getting as open as Moore did against the Jets secondary, even without Revis. Getting Gaffney would maybe help.
     
  10. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Well then why is he running in a way that requires MORE burst?

    When you're trying to gain positive yardage in the NFL after reversing field, you better have all of the burst you normally have, as well as a whole lot more than the average back.
     
  11. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Only way he knows how IMO.
     
  12. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Well that's a problem then. I'd rather have a back with a lot more flexibility in his style and an ability to adjust it based on an appreciation of the game situation, especially in a ZBS.
     
  13. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Thats certainly fair. I think if Daniel Thomas were healthy, we'd have seen a lot more him. Unfortunate that isn't the case however. Hopefully Miller can get himself on the field soon as well.
     
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  14. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    It is? I thought it meant I wanted everybody to chase him down with pitchforks? :headscratch: ;)
     
  15. keypusher

    keypusher Well-Known Member

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    Agree, but Reggie was terrible too. It was a joint effort.
     
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  16. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension
    Jonas Gray coming soon to a theater near you.
     
  17. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    AMERICA!
    I wonder if we will see Jonas Gray activated after the bye?
     
  18. apatos19

    apatos19 New Member

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    I think you're correct in pointing out that neither Miami nor Bush, have the right idea when it comes to his role in the offense. I know he wants to be an every-down, rock pounder, put up a thousand yards plus, runner. But it is a huge mistake on both of their parts. You don't use a thoroughbred to pull wagons. If I were Philpin and Sherman, I'd find a package of plays that would utilize his speed in open space and run them. When defenses start to key on that, I'd use him as a decoy. Which worked very well, when he split out wide to left on the Fasano TD pass.

    I'd also use him as a third or fourth WR, to make use of thoses hands and speed.

    It wouldn't have mattered who ran the ball yesterday, though. The OL lost the battle for the line of scrimage and the Ram's cornerbacks shut down our WR's. They executed their gameplan, and we still won.
     
  19. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What you are claiming they are doing wrong is pretty much the only serious success Bush has had in his professional career.
     
  20. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    I'm not sure Jonas Gray is the answer:

    http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/jonas-gray?id=2533030

    I'd rather have Daniel Thomas in there. He's a guy who can run laterally, choose the hole, and then burst through it, even if it's only for a yard or two. Bush tries to create too much, and Gray sounds like he can't run laterally.
     
  21. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    If I have straw man arguments it's only because your words hold about as much weight as a cardboard bridge. I rarely use the ignore button on any forum unless I just can't stand a certain poster. I have no problem with you but I simply don't understand the point of bashing Reggie Bush right now. You refuse to consider any other possibilty other than your own as to why Bush has struggled these last few games. You are being very narrow minded about this. You don't just feel like Reggie Bush sucks...You know it and there is no changing your mind about it. Same thing with the Matt Moore must start forum you conjured up.
    I mean forget that he is nursing a knee injury, forget that we have faced some formidable defensive fronts the last three weeks, forget that Jeff Fisher planned to completely stop the run against us, forget that we don't have a legit deep threat at receiver to stretch defenses. You know that Reggie Bush sucks and thats all there is to it right? I mean thats the way it seems. It used to take a strong person to admit that they were wrong about something. Forget that because nobody is ever wrong anymore. Now it just takes a strong person to atleast "consider" other possibilities as to why something is going the way it is.
    Peace bro.
     
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  22. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Honestly, how do you know what I'm considering? You'd have to read my mind to know that, wouldn't you?

    If I wasn't considering any other opinions, I'd simply type my thoughts and never come back to the thread and respond to people.

    Let me ask you this: if I say I believe Reggie Bush is a problem right now for the reasons I've stated, and someone replies and says, essentially, "nah, it's just his injury, which is making him lack the burst he once had," and I believe that viewpoint is inconsistent with the fact that he's running in a way that requires MORE burst (i.e., reversing field in the NFL, which is rarely successful), if I respond by asking the person to make sense of that inconsistency so we can attempt to negotiate the issue, how does that reflect the lack of consideration of their opinion? If I wasn't considering their opinion, I simply wouldn't respond at all.

    I mean it's clear we could all be right and nobody knows the real deal here. I thought that was understood. I didn't think I had to reply with something like "you could be right" in every post in which something is debated, in order to make people feel as though their viewpoint is being considered. I try to do that sort of thing with the acronym "IMO." If you care to check through my post history, I suspect you'll find "IMO" in my posts more than just about any other person's here.

    With due credit to Stringer Bell, here's an example of how the kind of interchange I'm talking about CAN go on this board, when both people involved cooperate:

     
  23. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Facing pretty good run defense teams has a lot to do with that...the Rams were 3rd in the nfl against the run before we faced them...

    I think they need to do some different things with RB, Miller, Lane and Thomas to have an overall better run game. Funny how Thomas gets so much flak around here, but he's been hurt the last two weeks and ironically enough, our run game has been anemic as well. Is there a correlation (given that Bush has been hurting too) ? I don't know, but it is interesting at the least...
     
  24. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Have to admit Shou, I got the same feeling from your posts on RB...?
     
  25. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's not about the run defense we're facing. If Reggie Bush flat out had a crappy day because of the run defense, that's fine. It wouldn't be on him.

    The problem is that he's taking bad plays and making them worse by going backwards. He's getting greedy, gambling, and he's frequently losing and hurting the team.
     
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  26. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    And it's entirely possible that you're perceiving that I feel strongly about the issue and have my mind fairly made up about it, which I do. I'm sure you've felt that way about something before, no?

    If I see evidence to the contrary that makes me change my viewpoint on this issue, I'll be the first to come here and admit it. I did as much earlier this year when I totally re-thought my opinion about Brian Hartline as a deep threat, when before on this board I disputed that very thing in the face of disagreement by just about everybody who responded in a 20-plus page thread.
     
  27. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    This is precisely my feeling on this issue.

    Really I think the answer is just to respond to fewer people who raise an objection to it, because when you debate everybody, it makes you appear closed-minded and inconsiderate of others' viewpoints. From now on I'll just pick and choose to whom to respond, instead of repeating myself. In the end you'll see fewer posts from me in which it appears I'm "disputing" someone.
     
  28. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    It's still drive blocking. You have either zone or man blocking, but both entail drive blocks being made by the OL, whether it is a specific man or whomever is in the zone they are responsible for.
     
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  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Are you operating under the belief that our Oline has picked up the nuances of Philbin & Sherman's zone blocking scheme after just 5 games and is executing it on all cylinders, especially now that defenses are placing more emphasis on disrupting it?

    Is this the same Shanahan whose first year in Washington [2010] saw a rushing offense ranked 30th in yards, 24th in TDs, and 22nd in 1st Down % ? Appears as though Shanahan's backs weren't very good at converting 3rd downs.

    Just b/c we now employ a ZBS it doesn't mean we can snap our fingers and have the blocking firing on all cylinders, especially with defenses directing greater focus toward disrupting it. It's only "easy" (as you say) for a back to succeed in it if the blocking is there to allow them.
     
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  30. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    All I can say is that it was great seeing a fake punt done by us instead of seeing it done to us. Part of the difference between the Sparano and Philbin administrations.
     
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  31. jsizzle

    jsizzle Banned

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    It's all about having a coach who wants to play to win, not play to not lose.
     
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  32. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    But zone blocking (in contrast to man) is optimally effective via a specific style of running by its backs, is it not? What is your understanding of that style?
     
  33. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Actually part of what I'm wondering is whether the linemen are the type of athlete best suited to run that scheme, and whether their possible unsuitedness to the scheme is starting to be exploited now that there is some film of them running that scheme for other teams to go on.

    Right, but the back has to maintain the integrity of the system by being a one cut and go runner. He can't run laterally and then try to "create." That's not what the system calls for. He needs to run laterally and then get upfield ASAP.
     
  34. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Jeez, this whole thread can be boiled down to: nothing is wrong with the running game. But. Any DC who doesn't stack the box and force us to pass the ball should be fired. Immediately. If we had a credible threat on the outside we could take advantage of the stacked boxes or prevent them from happening altogether. We don't, so we'll see 8 man fronts all season long. Rocket science it aint.
     
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  35. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    A post by someone considered reputable on another site:

     
  36. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The blocking has had issues. The Dolphins have faced a lot of quality edge defenders that have been a huge challenge to Jonathan Martin and have negated some of the advantage you expect from Jake Long. Also, Richie Incognito has been ****ing terrible. It's been lukewarm, but I don't think there have been a lot of plays where someone has gone unblocked or stuff like that.

    Reggie Bush has made some flat out dumb decisions with the ball going through and looking at it on NFL Rewind. I think if anything, I was a little bit charitable. There are plays where there is nothing wrong with the blocking and he's ****ing up. The early -5 yard play where he reversed field vs. the Rams was super bad. The entire front side of the play was blocked.
     
  37. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    well this is becoming a merry go round on the miami dolphins offense and i am getting fed up with the common denominator which is Jeff Ireland we should not have offensiveline issues , we have spent many draft picks and this is never going to get better until we Fire Ireland and maybe Mike Sherman he isnt the answer as O.C the bottem line is we need a big sturdy back similar to Ronnie or Ricky because those gus were dependable.
     
  38. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    If I had to make my best guess at it, I'd say it boils down to the fact that Long and Incognito, and to some extent Jerry, are not suited to be ZBS guys, and Bush is making worse the aspects of their play that are being exploited by that.

    If they're truly going to run a ZBS, they need to get those lighter, nimble-footed guys in there, and they need a back who has a one cut running style and mentality. Right now there is lots of jamming a square peg in a round hole going on, which is to some extent unavoidable when you have a regime change and a scheme change.
     
  39. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The only one I can really agree with is Incognito being a scheme fit issue.

    Long is fine. He was a dominant run blocker in college in a zone scheme and I don't think he's performed unreasonably given the competition. Even in what's been graded out as his worst games by PFF, running behind him was still the most productive bet.

    Jerry is athletic enough. I don't know he's ever going to be more than an average to slightly above average guy, but he's not a bad fit.
     
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  40. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    How important do you think the mobility of the left guard is in this scheme?
     

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