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The Official 2012 Boston Red Sox Thread

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Ray Finkle, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I think your "point" that the Red Sox are not a smart FO is rather silly to begin with with no real strong evidence to support your theory. You can only point to their record this year as "proof" that they're not smart however the guy (Billy Beane) you said you would hire to smarten up the Sox FO sported records of 76-86, 75-87, 81-81, 74-88 and 94-68 in the past 5 years in a weaker division. Missing the playoffs or failing to win a WS doesn't equal non-smart FO.

    I know you like to group the ownership into the FO, which is fair, however since the ownership group took over 11 years ago in 2002 the franchise has averaged 91 wins each year, made the playoffs in 6 of those years, won 2 WS titles and had only 1 losing year. You realize most fan bases would kill to have an 11 year run like that? The only franchise off the top of my head that have had equal or better runs have been the Yankees and Cardinals. Yes the last 3 have been disappointments because they failed to make the playoffs but non smart FO doesn't have that type of long term success.

    Again every FO, make good and bad moves. It's impossible to find any FO that's perfect or always "wins" their trades, signings and draftings. Name me a FO/GM and I will give you a list of bad moves.
     
  2. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    RF, will say this, to me the Sox FO was brilliant at first, then really dropped off as things became more stable and they lost their edge and willingness to play young talent.

    Strategically the Dodgers deal makes sense, it is the sort of move that should not have happened b/c they probably should not have went so deeply into the FA/Trade market when they were winning all of the time they made smart deals just not big name deals.
     
  3. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Yes this is definitely true. Theo and the FO were great at signing or trading for under valued players on short term deals (Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, Beltres of the world) and really most of the trades they made worked out for them, the big mistakes were Wily Mo Pena for Bronson Arroyo, David Murphy and co for Eric Gagne and possibly the Adrian Gonzalez deal (depends on what all the prospects from both sets of trades do). The problem was when they went to sign big ticketed FAs. The FO had no problem letting guys like Pedro, Damon, Lowe, Victor Martinez walk because they felt their best days were behind them or didn't think their demands would make sense but then they went ahead a spent big money on the same types of players, just from different teams. Theo never hit on a big contract FA in his entire tenture as Sox GM. He's best big signing was J.D. Drew.

    What they really should have done was after the 2008 season realized they were in a rebuilding year and instead of signing John Lackey and others, took a small step back and traded some of their players to restock on the future. It ended up happening 3 years too late but I think they're at that point right now.

    They still produced young talent even in those bad years, they still draft very well, though. The problem is the last 2 or 3 years their main talent wasn't major league ready, minus Middlebrooks this year. But each year they generally have 1 or 2 prospects come up to help the big league club. The next wave of talent is very promising.

    I just hope the Sox realize their past mistakes and never go through that again. I also think it takes a special type of player to be able to handle Boston and that's something they didn't either realize or put much thought into. I think that's part of the reason their big FA signings didn't work out too well.

    I've said it numerous times in numerous threads but the landscape in baseball has changed, teams can no longer focus on the FA market. They need to build from within starting with the draft. If those teams have strong draft strategies they can use those players as trade chips when the right player becomes available. I know it's easier said then done of course.
     
  4. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Nannie Nannie Boo Boo!!!!:tongue2:
     
  5. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    well said...better than I have been saying it. Thats been my point too. But I also love teasing about Sox and their failures in general the past...like the past 3 seasons, and this trade being a blatant quitting mid season - but for the reasons of getting out from under the bad decisions....and I do get the positives of the trade to get out from under all the BAD decision that led up to needing and being fortunate to pull off the trade....but love teasing about the fact they got into that situation in the first place.

    Yes, agreed, and part of my point that I have been teasing you over. I will officially bury the hatchet on my teasing from this point forward and lets see how things change going forward.

    Truth is, Ray Finkle, Green Monster and FinYank are my 3 most enjoyable Red Sox Fans I like to discuss things with on this board.:shifty:
     
  6. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    You don't have to bury the hatchet or stop teasing. I just think you're focusing in on the wrong things mainly harping on them quitting on the season, even when it was already a lost season at the time of the deal. But I don't want to get into that again.

    Bottom line is while I liked Theo Epstein and thought he was one of the best GMs in baseball, he did an awful job in the FA market when it came to giving out big contracts. Pretty much all of them have been failures with only John Lackey being the remaining contract left, and while I think he'll bounce back now that he's healthy I don't think it will be enough to justify 3 lost seasons. I mean a lot of those FA signings had big red flags to begin with but because the team had money they choose to ignore it.

    I think moving forward the organization needs to get back on track on finding those undervalued players and also using their farm system to trade for players that have controllable contract years and also can handle the Boston market. For all the bad FA signings Theo made, he's big strengths was the trade market. He brought in guys like Victor Martinez, Curt Schilling, Orlando Cabrera and Jason Bay and all of those players performed very well.

    Thankfully the Dodgers were foolish enough to take on all of that money and give the Sox a reset while also giving them players back. It's definitely a good start but there is still a lot of work to be done to bring this team back to being good again. However they do have a lot of pieces already in play its all about the players playing to their potential and getting luck and healthier.
     
  7. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    I am not focusing on the quitting - as much as using it as a knife in the back (that your FO self stabbed or tripped over themselves and it stuck in - whatever metaphor is cleaner to the point) and just twisting it but emphasizing the quitting for the fun of it, because of the mistakes since 2008 as you acknowledged. But its only teasing and not really emphasizing the quitting over the bad moves. Its just more enjoyable to play off the quitting for the fun of it.

    Bottomline, they got out from under all those moves in one fell-swoop..so onward to hot stove. I know like you and Green Monster the only other diehard RedSox fan being FinYank, you 3 have to be happy to have the dead weight of those contracts out from under you this off season.:wink2:
     
  8. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    FinYank, you're getting trolled.
     
  9. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Wait, he's not a Sox? nah!....but, based on his?, nah!....are you saying I misinterpreted his love?...nah!, cant be, because he clearly....nah!, you are pulling my leg,....arent you?
     
  10. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Word is Cody Ross wants a 3 year 25 million dollar deal. Good luck with that Cody. If a team offers you that JUMP ON IT!
     
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  11. GreenMonster

    GreenMonster New Member

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    I bet Ludwick will be looking for the same kind of deal. I would rather have Ross.
     
  12. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    With all things being even I'd rather have Torii Hunter for a year or two. He'd be my first choice if we're going to the FA RHH COF route. At least with Hunter he still plays an above average defense and is a good club house guy.

    I'd only go 2 years max on any of those guys though, whether it be Hunter, Ross, Ludwick or whoever. But only Hunter would be a starter in my mind. The other two guys are platoon players.
     
  13. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    True is I haven't been here much...eh I don't care, trivial things are fun to laugh at........I try and speak the truth unbiasedly about the Yankees....and I am usually right that's all I know....

    I have just found out I am having arthroscopic surgery in early Jan.....who the hell knows how long I will be out of work, I am going to lose alot of money, who knows how it will heal, I was applying for another job and I had to pull out....

    I am just effing pissed right now....

     
  14. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Shouright???

    LOL....

    Dude, bummer about the surgery, fingers crossed for you. Hang in there.

    Yeah, just teasing a friend in the slow offseason.:hi5:
     
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  15. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    I knew I was going to get a Shouright blast hahaha thanks for making me laugh....
     
  16. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Crap man that sucks. Good luck with everything, hopefully you land on your feet quicker than expected.
     
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  17. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Solid signing, was hoping the Yanks got him.....

     
  18. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Wow, very nice deal for the Sox. Wonder if that means Saltalamacchia or Lavarnway are on the trading block now. Or if Lavarnway could possibly move to 1st. Options are always good.
     
  19. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    There is a lot of buzz going around that the Sox have been shopping Saltalamacchia for a few weeks now.
     
  20. GreenMonster

    GreenMonster New Member

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    Ross is pretty solid, although he didn't hit this year like last year. Many less clutch type AB's, but I love the deal for $6.5 and 2.
     
  21. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Why??? Seriously, Why???
     
  22. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    pretty self explanatory....
     
  23. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    it explains a lot for sure, just didnt think you wanted it out in the open, but.....carry on!
     
  24. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    nope you are the cyber security genius in DC....u can understand it I am sure...
     
  25. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    this says it all......

    comedy gold!:hi5:
     
  26. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    What's wrong with David Ross?
     
  27. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    From a Yankees team perspective, not needed one bit is all.

    Ross is a nice rotational backup......how exactly does that fit the Yankees needs? Heck, the one position we have more depth then most others is backup Catcher.

    I have no issue from Saux standpoint if they feel he is an upgrade as backup rotational guy.....but he is not an everyday Catcher.
     
  28. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Ross is far far better than any back up catcher the Yankees have.
     
  29. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Totally disagree, especially for the contract and return on value.

    He is basically an equivalent the last 3yrs to production we already have as backup, and that doesnt include the depth of farm system either. Waste of money to invest differently in a position we have already.

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    [TD="align: left"]Ross, David C ATL[/TD]
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  30. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    That is fact, though.

    Romine had a sub.700 OPS in the minor leagues last season. Stewart was even worse and has never been anything more than awful at the major league level. Cervelli also had a .650 OPS in the minor leagues.

    Meanwhile, Ross has had a near .800 OPS over the last two seasons. Whether you think he's worth that contract is a different story, but he is in fact, much better than the Yankees backup catchers, and there's nothing wrong with Finyank hoping the Yanks sign him.
     
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  31. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Not a fact...would have been a waste, not much better, thats the fact...basically the same as pointed out. Thank goodness Cashman sees it differently, and knows better.
     
  32. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    It's undeniable fact. Suit yourself.
     
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  33. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    I like Ross for what he is, but he is not needed on the Yanks. Far more important things to deal with. Thats the fact of all facts.
     
  34. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    So we've gotten to the point where we're hating on the signing of a back up catcher, whose one of the best in baseball actually? And also comparing him to a player that has was so thought of last year that the team gave him 2 plate appearances last season?

    And Ross is clearly a back up, no one has ever said otherwise. I really don't understand the knock on this move. The contract is more than reasonable and its a short term deal.
     
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  35. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    I am not knocking the move from Saux standpoint.
     
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  36. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Yes I missed that. I don't agree with the Yankees having back up catching depth though, they certainly could have used Ross. A lot of teams could, it just shows you how weak that position really is.
     
  37. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Feeding trolls is bad for your health....
     
  38. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    But can be fun at times.
     
  39. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nick Cafardo ‏@nickcafardo
    Source: Red Sox made a push for both Jose Reyes and Josh Johnson, but Jays just blew Marlins away.
     
  40. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    While I don't really consider Cafardo to ever be a reliable source of information if true I would love to know which players were talked about. I'd have to guess Iglesias would have to be one of them. In the end I'm glad the deal wasn't made by the Sox simply because I don't trust Reyes to stay healthy long enough to make his contract worth it.
     

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