Since I started this thread (just after game four), Brian Hartline has caught 28 passes for 335 yards, or 11.96 yards per reception. I'd say the jury is still out.
I don't think it should be: http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=2012&type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=119
He's capable of sneaking behind single defenders that fall asleep on him. Unfortunately Davone Bess isn't even capable of that. Hartline is not scaring anyone with his straight up speed, keeping a defense spaced out. As Mike Mayock said last night with Bess and Hartline on the field the defense remains compressed, like you're in the red zone no matter where you are on the field.
So wait, so what exactly is the thresh hold for "deep threat"? Is it Desean Jackson's .2 touchdowns per game adequate, then? Why did you even post that?
Hartline is a good receiver but if he's the main deep threat focus on your team its going to be a long year. Great WRs and good deep threats score points. We can move the ball but we can't score points with the passing game. Hartline has proven he has value and honestly if we had a legit playmaker at the WR position I think he and Bess are ideal 2nd and 3rd WRs.
Brian Hartline is not a deep "threat." He occasionally catches a deep pass, but so does Wes Welker. Hartline is a good WR though, and can get behind a defense. But when I think deep threat, I don't think Hartline. I think Wallace. I think Vincent Jackson. Desean before his recent slumps (and still is). Julio Jones. Is Hartline in that group?
In terms of actual on the field production this year? Yes, absolutely. That doesn't actually appear to hold any weight though.
Hartline and Bess are making decent (not great, but decent) contributions to the passing game. Unfortunately, no one else is making any more than minimal contributions. We need a lot more from our passing attack than that.
I dont know if he is a deep threat but he is a fashion threat. If this site would let me post pics I would provide evidence.
Right, but how many passes has he caught that were thrown deep in the past six games? The stat at that link is catches of greater than 25 yards. It doesn't say how far the ball was thrown.
Hartline is a scoring machine with 3 touch downs in the past 168 quarters going back to December 2009.
Let's assume he isn't a deep threat. Is he a good receiver regardless? I'm leaning towards saying he is.
I think he definitely is, but I think when you're talking about making the proper personnel moves for this team going forward, you have to view Hartline as a starting possession receiver and Bess as a #3 slot guy, with the need then being for a speedy deep threat opposite Hartline. On the other hand you can sit back and hope, with Ryan Tannehill's further development, that Hartline does next year what he did in the first four games this year, but I don't think that would be prudent. If he plays well deep from the possession role, great, that's just gravy, but I think you have to go forward with the idea that someone with elite speed needs to be on the field at WR.
Are you insinuating Hartline is a deep threat b/c he's tied with DeSean Jackson & Brandon Marshall for 25+ yard receptions? I'm sorry but that removes the situational aspect of the coverage being faced. If Hartline faced the type of coverage those 2 guys routinely see, his number of 25+ yard receptions is likely 0 or close to it. That's why during the past 5 weeks, outside of a 35 yard catch verse a poor Indy secondary (and the safety no where to be seen), he hasn't had a reception longer than 17 yards, meanwhile defenses can focus on taking away the run. Being a legitimate vertical threat should be felt through his mere presence on the field and the way defenses are forced to respect that aspect of his game, which in turn should help open up others. Hartline doesn't do that, at all. There's no DC in the league preaching to his defense pre-game and during half time, "Guys, whatever you do make sure #82 does NOT get by you out there b/c we simply can not let him beat us today, nor let him dictate the game." Hartline might sneak by a corner from time to time but he does not stretch a defense and create more space for others. He allows defenses to play us exactly the way they desire rather than forcing them to alter their game plan. That's not the sign of a vertical threat.
What other players have the had such a high number of 25 yd receptions with these "situational circumstances" you claim Hartline enjoys?
Jared Cook ran a 4.49 at the combine, and he's matched up on linebackers and safeties most of the time.
Hartline isn't really a threat at anything, he's not a deep threat or a red zone threat. if he's your best WR, your offense probably sucks. if he's your 2nd best WR, you're probably going to be asking for an upgrade pretty soon. now if he's your 3rd best WR, that's not bad.
I agree, of all the non legitimate vertical threats who receive less or minimal coverage attention, Hartline is probably near the top of that list as far long receptions goes this year..... but that doesn't make him a vertical threat in the truest sense of it.
Who are non-legitimate vertical threats??? I've never been familiar with this classification of player where you make a lot of plays 25+ yds, but are not considered a deep-threat?
Yeah, no. The "extraordinary coverage" argument rarely has any grounds at all. Brandon Marshall undeniably sees more strenuous coverage looks than Brian Hartline. The people in that club are few and far between on a weekly basis. Mike Wallace ain't on that list. He puts his pants on one leg at a time every morning like Brian Hartline and every other wide receiver that isn't Larry Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, etc. Brian Hartline isn't succeeding because teams are playing cover-1 and rolling the safety away from him while a cornerback(who is clearly drunk as fffff) has a short zone and hands him off to open field. Mike Wallace is not successful despite constant designed double teams and a dude in the stands shining a laser pointer in his eyes. I'm sitting here and watching NFL Rewind on Wallace's best and worst games and he's not succeeding or failing while having everything but the kitchen sink thrown at him coverage-wise. I saw a game where teams didn't have a safety playing deep over Wallace on multiple receptions.
I'm not sure how you can classify a receiver as a deep threat who has 1 TD per 47 targets and whose bulk of career 25+ yard receptions fall during a 4 game stretch this year (against single coverage to boot). A receiver who occasionally gets by a corner in single coverage isn't a "deep threat"; he's a receiver who occasionally gets by his corner vs single coverage. If he were a true deep threat, opposing defenses would respect him as such and in turn bracket him routinely, but that doesn't happen. On the rare occasion he is bracketed (which defenses can afford to do since he's arguably our best receiver), he's completely removed from the game. What'd Brian rank in 20+ yard receptions in 2011? Tied for 70th with 4.6 forty Davone Bess and behind our TE Fasano.... and that was against single coverage with Brandon Marshall drawing a ton of attention. Is that the definition of vertical threat? How about we first have a full season of football played before pointing out Hartline's 25+ yard ranking b/c every game we get further away from week 4 the further he's been dropping in that category?
....and how often would you say Wallace sees a shift in coverage or bracketed coverage compared to Hartline? WADR, what has Hartline done in 6 games verse good corners this year (and in mostly single coverage to boot)? Answer: 35 targets with only 16 catches for a measley 240 yards and 0 TDs. That's an average of 40 ypg, a pedestrian 6.85 avg, and a poor 45.6% catch rate....... but he's apparently a "vertical threat" b/c, amidst that lackluster display, he had 3 catches of over 25+ yards. Please excuse me if a heavily disagree.
Because I thought it was funny that anyone would consider Hartline a consistent deep threat. He's a solid possession receiver. No more, no less.
So is every NFL receiver who can occasionally beat a corner deep now considered a deep threat? Is that the broad standard we're going by? So then what classification do we use to distinguish those receivers who get deep more often/consistently & actually make plays in the face of extra coverage? Vertical assassins? Vertical devastators? Vertical terminators? Vertical "I'm gonna beat you deep even though you're trying to stop me from beating you deep" threats? I'd like to poll every DC to find out how the NFL would rate Hartline as a vertical threat on a scale of 1-10 in comparison to Mike Wallace, with 10 being equivalent to Wallace. I'm guessing the average answer would be "Huh?".
He doesn't occasionally beat a corner, though. You were just provided a list that states he's near the top of the NFL in 25+ yard catches.
I doubt there is any significant difference. There's not a lot of reason to bracket cover Wallace because he's route-limited. You don't need to in/out him because he's not really a threat in the intermediate, and high/low it's the same general deal. The "low" isn't much of a threat. He gets thrown a bunch of screens, but I don't see how you need to double team that? Wallace I'm sure gets a lot of man coverage with a deep safety on his side of the field, probably more than most, but so what? There are teams where that's the predominant coverage on anyone. I'm not sure that's all that telling without a comparison to another receiver. Looking to Mike Wallace's contribution against "good corners" on PFF I'm not sure he is much better. He appears much more frequently matched up with #2 corners. He didn't have any targets against Champ Bailey or Nnamdi Asomugha, lost pretty decisively against Nate Webster and Brandon Flowers. Can you really hang your hat on 4 receptions for 68 yards against Antonio Cromartie?
That's not correct in terms of actual on the field occurrences. Calvin Johnson has two touchdowns, and Steve Smith one. Are they not deep threats this year?
Fellas, we watch every game, Hartline is a deep threat, but is he enough of one to effect defenses? I'd say no, he is a bit like Steve Largent, he can catch down the field but not run off safeties allowing the underneath stuff to work.
.....and I just provided a few stats that shed a little more clarity on the subject. And what about being tied for 70th last year in 20+ yard receptions? I suppose that doesn't count? So now his entire career as a "deep threat" is essentially being determined by what he did over a 4 game stretch this year vs not so good coverage? Again, there's no arguing what he did (or didn't do) in the 6 games where he actually faced good coverage (and with little to no safety help over top). 16 catches in 35 targets (45.6%). 240 yards (40 ypg) 0 TDs 6.85 yards/target True vertical threats don't put up pedestrian numbers like that.
Last year he had Marshall on the other side. Hard to be near the top when you don't get the ball much. Plus, Henne was his QB. Hard to put up numbers when you don't have a very good QB. Your numbers didn't really show me anything. Who you may consider a bad corner, I may consider a good corner. You need to show the names, not just the numbers.