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Tony Boselli on Jake Long

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Paul 13, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    On the other hand, I can't possibly see an elite player purposefully playing at a level lower to not have the current organization want him back... If he wants to be elsewhere, he's got all the chips. At the end of the season he informs Irish to shop for another LT and he goes on his way. In watching him, I agree with Boselli, that his mechanics are off. Now are they off because of an accumulation of injuries or because he's being coached a different way of playing the position or whatever, perhaps, but he's not purposefully playing less than he's capable. That's something that a player at his level cannot do, even if he wants to... He doesn't appear to be playing to 'not get hurt' at all.
     
  2. sandcastle

    sandcastle Active Member

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    Any chance that Long's performance has been impacted by Tannehill's tempo and the offense's frequent audibles? In the past, Long has been able to 'game' the snap count to protect against speed rushers. Perhaps, when he doesn't have that edge, he overcompensates with a too large initial step.

    Long's average performance during mid season also coincides with Tannehill struggling with zone coverages. Perhaps, this caused another pre-snap tempo change, which has prevented Long to time the snap and demonstrate improved mid season play as he's shown in the past.
     
  3. UCF FINatic

    UCF FINatic The Miami Dolphins select

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    Texas A&M has two tackles that should be taken in the 1st to 2nd round this year...
     
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  4. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    Already addressed this....

     
  5. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    I give you ................................ Tony Sparano compared to Joe Philbin. Two unknowns yet one is a teacher and the other is not. That can only be seen after doing or not doing the Job.
     
  6. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    Except we aren't talking about Philbin, we are talking about Long's position coach, Jim Turner. The Philbin comparisons were brought up by others.
     
  7. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Jake Long as an offensive line coach would be all of your nightmares come true. Physically, Jake is fine. His problems are all in his head. When Jake makes a mistake instead of shaking it off it eats him alive all game. For those that said his biggest mental problem right now is getting the jump on outside speed rushers you are 100% correct. Jakes main focus and main mental flaw is just that. He is focusing on the outside and giving up the inside and also giving up, due to his being off balance, the outside.

    This is not Turners problem. Turner is a good coach. Jakes problem can only be fixed by Jake.
     
  8. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    I don't think it's probable for him to develop such a mental problem at this point in his career. I think the only two possibilities are: 1) playing more poorly by choice, and/or 2) declining physically.
     
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    With his injury last year, it is extremely probable for him to develop a mental problem at this point of his career. Especially if wasn't injured early on his career.
     
  10. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Yahtzee !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Physically he is fine as fine will be. Its all in his head. He hates the knee brace but will never take it off now.
     
  11. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    He's had those mechanics since day one. In fact years ago I said an opposing defensive player could get a great tip-off on whether we're running or passing by watching Jake Long's left leg right after the snap. He's always flared it back wildly like that, and he's always set up to defend the speed rush first off.
     
  12. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Yep and watching game after game he and the team are soooooo lucky he does not get called for it more then he does. Two instances Sun he had the left leg kicked up IMO well before that ball was snapped.
     
  13. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    Players Jim Turner has put in the league:

    Pat Ross
    Gosder Cherilus
     
  14. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    I cannot say which Oline coach put who in the league. Outside of a select Universities where the Oline coach has been there for a decade or more, its a crap shoot. SEC gets big recruits, BIG 10 gets big recruits etc. Lots of times it has to do with the talent or tradition on why the atlete commits not who the Oline coach is. Look around the NFL, most of the Oline coaches have not been on the same team for 10 years. Off the top of my head there must be a few but I bet its not many. Take Paul Boudreau of the Rams. Has bounced around but is a great Oline coach. Rams have little to nothing to speak of on the Oline and the man is making it work and this is his first year there. Was there in 2006 I believe but was part of a head chopping process due to them losing which IMO, was wrong. Paul Boudreau is one of the best out there and to my knowledge never coached at a big Div 1 school. Not unless you consider Dartmouth a big time football college LOL
     
  15. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh, you mean a team that recognizes a talented player, and actually WANTS them on their roster? You probably are correct. That being said though, basically every single team in the NFL would be lining up for Jake's services if we were foolish enough to cut him loose.
     
  16. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    Paul Boudreau is a PERFECT example of talent shining through and making the leap. And his first job was at Boston College(Big East). He took a step back to Maine, then up to Navy. After Navy he went to the CFL. From the CFL, he has been in the league since 87.

    Can you say the same for Turner?
     
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't know, I fu&&in love the guy and would do anything he asked me to do if I was a professional..
     
  18. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    No but Boudreau was scooped up by Fisher as soon as he took the HC job at the Rams. I would LOVE Boudreau here. Man can take lemons and make some kick asss lemonade out of them.
     
  19. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    That's an excuse-making answer. Joeckel & Matthews have outperformed & out-executed at least 30 Oline recruits ranked higher from 2008 (redshirts) to 2010 including 5 star #1 ranked DJ Fluker (2009 Bama), 5 star #1 ranked Seantrel Henderson (UM 2010), and #1 ranked Tyler Love (2008 Bama). By your argument the top 15 picks of this draft should all be offensive tackles if HS AA equals top 15 pick. Heck, by your own argument, Joeckel & Matthews shouldn't even be first rounders b/c these other 30+ higher rated recruits should've pushed them further down the draft.

    Furthermore, if we're going by your argument of level of recruiting talent = same level of draft status, then Turner actually did a better job of turning Joeckel & Matthews (#6 & #7 rated tackle recruits 2010) into top 15 draft picks than:
    • Alabama with the much higher rated pair of DJ Fluker & Tyler Love (#1 2009,#1 2008)
    • Notre Dame with 6th rounder Sam Young (2nd best tackle prospect from '06-'10)
    • Texas with Tray Allen & Paden Kelley (#1 2008, #2 2007)
    • Ohio State with Michael Brewster, J.B Shugarts, Mike Adams, and Connor Smith (#2,#3,#8 in '08....#7 2006)
    • Florida with Ian Silberman & Chaz Green (#3,#4 2010).... and Xavier Nixon (#7 2009)
    • Tennessee with Ju'Wuan James & James Stone (#2,#9 2010)
    • Florida again with Carl Johnson & Jim Barrie (3rd & 4th highest rated prospects from '06-'10)
    • Georgia with Justing Anderson, Austin Long, Trinton Strudivant (#5 2009, #6, 2006, #8 2008)
    • Auburn with 7th rounder Lee Ziemba (#4 2007)
    • ​UNC & undrafted Kevin Bryant (#3 2007)
    ......and Turner did so in a shorter period of time.
    Where are all the top 15 draft picks on that list? I guess all those coaches should be fired, eh? :shifty:
    Why does it matter (considering you're just gonna say it was ALL b/c of the lineman's ability and in spite of Turner)? lol
    If all that counts is talent then why are you complaining about coaching? :tongue2:

    So basically your argument is, "Turner sucks b/c he couldn't turn a bunch of small school offensive linemen, who weren't good enough to get into a major program, into NFL players."? Even at A&M Turner had nothing more than 3 star linemen to work with, not even a top 300 national prospect until Joeckel & Matthews (ranked #83 & 90 per ESPN) arrived who outperformed their consensus recruiting rankings I might add.

    Furthermore, someone must've been responsible for coaching up the 23rd ranked guard recruit in '09 into who is now considered the nation's 13th best center, unless you think these kids already know everything. LOL.

    It's amazing that A&M had the 4th best pass protecting line in 2011, 24th best rushing offense, and 7th best total yardage offense in spite of Turner's inadequacy as a coach.
     
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  20. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    no you didn't. :p
     
  21. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    It seems like you don't like Turner so you're throwing anything against the wall you possibly can, never mind the fact he previously didn't coach at a major program where he'd actually have some talent to work with. Instead he received the leftovers, and you're criticizing him for not turning piss into yummy lemonade. That's ridiculous & hypocritical, especially when your argument rests on emphasizing how talent is the biggest key to Joeckel & Matthew's elite level of production. By your own argument, if Joeckel & Turner are top NFL prospects b/c of their natural talent, then the same argument has to hold true for the opposite, that Turner's previous players didn't go on to the NFL b/c their small-school talent level was inadequate and held them back.


    Outside of Joeckel & Matthews, Turner has had minimal talent to work with, even at A&M..... but he still had 2 linemen drafted in '08 (4th round & 7th round), and after that it becomes skewed b/c he had Joeckel, Matthews, and Patrick Lewis starting and uneligible for the draft in '10 & '11.
     
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  22. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    I can't believe we're analyzing the hell out of Jim Turner as a way of making sense of Jake Long's performance.

    Is anybody's performance ever attributable to them, personally? :confused1:
     
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  23. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Ok Laces, so what's your excuse for Patrick Lewis (#23 ranked guard recruit 2010) becoming a FRESHMAN ALL-AMERICAN with Turner???? He obviously leapfrogged a lot of players to earn that honor.

    So let's see here, Turner gets a 2010 class of linemen that he parlays into:

    • a Freshman All American
    • a top 5 NFL draft pick
    • a likely top 15 NFL pick
    • a successful move of Patrick Lewis to center in 2011 where he becomes Honorable Mention All-Big 12 in his first season at the position.
    • the 4th best pass protecting Oline & 7th best total yardage offense.

    Yeah, Turner sucks. Epitome of suckage. :shifty: :tongue2:
     
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  24. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Sorry Shou ... love ya but ... that stuff on Long is just nonsense.

    Any and every player can reach a point where he can lose confidence. I've been around long enough to see great players struggle. All it takes is a few nicks and injuries (as Long has had) then getting beat a few times and it's a struggle. And, what he is doing, he is doing. Boselli is dead on with his analysis.

    Further, of course players need coaching even late in their career. It is easy to get out of whack. Look at baseball players; great hitters (even Albert Pujols struggled in his prime last year) or pitchers will need to make changes in stance and develop a slightly different set up or initial movement. Bodies get in synch and go out of synch - and much of it is mental.

    Look at the best pro golfers - they regularly go through swing changes as they develop bad habits here or there and need tweaks.

    The steps an OL OT takes can mean all the difference in the world in terms of giving up a sack or keeping a player just off the edge of the QB. it's a matter of split seconds.

    Beyond that, Long is not the quickest OT in the world. He's more of a RT who is strong enough and just quick enough to play LT. But, at the same time, we should retain him and really work hard with him.

    I would franchise him and seek to sign the other players to long term deals. If Long is willing to accept a reasonable deal, then sign him. Trying to find a good LOT is very difficult and can really crush a team. Plus with other big time needs at WR, TE, RG, potentially even RB as well as another pass rush DE and more DB's ...
     
  25. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    1 in 20 years of coaching offensive linemen. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut. Epitome of success right? That is what you are saying.
     
  26. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Maybe he knows he's on his way out and doesn't care.
     
  27. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    LMAO....not sure if serious....you list 2 lineman who were drafted in the year that he started coaching at aTm? Who is reaching now, or do you not realize that those picks were made based off of their play in 2007?

    Do you mean this Patrick Lewis?

    http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Patrick-Lewis-61357

    A guy that Buddy Wyatt was responsible for bringing in? A guy who was a center in HS? Are you pulling stuff out of your *** here to prove a point or what?
     
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  28. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    my question regarding Long is simply .... will he ever fully recover from the shoulder injury.

    other folks here can validate or not ... but he simply hasn't been the same since the shoulder injury - period.

    personally, i think a large part of his game was his strength and being able to 'punch' lineman ... and that doesn't 'seem' to be the same anymore. so could he be suffering from a lack of confidence as a result -- sure, it's plausible. the question is ... can it be corrected, either by getting his strength back - or by developing some better technique??

    but for 'paste' ... Big Jake did have a slight weakness - speed rushers his whole career. the few pressures/sacks he gave up were almost always against speedrushers. not a serious problem mind you ... but it was evident.
     
  29. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Entirely possible. Good points. :up:
     
  30. GRT8

    GRT8 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Agreed.

    Also, Shou does a nice job consistently making you look at every possibility in numerous posts and I respect that.

    There isn't always a clear concise answer on why something happens and how to correct it ...if there was, football would be an easy game to scout, manage and coach. We may not agree on everything, but one thing I do know....we sure analyze every angle here :)

    The tape shows that he is struggling for all the reasons everyone has mentioned; injuries, mental etc. I Personally believe injuries have taken a toll on him and he isn't the same player. These injuries have caused him to compensate and it's now affecting him in different ways ( technique and mental approach ). Can he rebound... Only insiders know that are close to him. I would guess he is franchised and not signed to a long term deal as its too risky.
     
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  31. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    "what have you done for me lately?"

    And again, thanks for ignoring the fact Turner had to work with college scraps for most of those 20 years, but when he actually had a big time program to work with he succeeded. It's a fool's argument to say a Top 5 pick, a likely Top 15 pick, and a 23rd ranked guard recruit becoming a Freshman All-American (all from the same offensive line unit) is anything BUT successful.
     
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  32. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    ahhh, so Turner didn't coach those drafted players during their final year?
    I guess he sat back eatin' tater chips and watching rewatching Full Metal Jacket on continuous loop? lol

    You're argument is so biasedly skewed it's silly. You'll dismiss everything in order to say Turner sucks b/c he didn't turn any of his small school players passed over by all the major programs into NFL studs. I see you also have nothing to say about the rest of my pertinent argument. I'll take that as your hoisting of the white flag. :wink2: :tongue2:

    Lewis was ranked 23rd per ESPN by the way. If you want to exclusively use Rivals as a measure to support your slanted argument, then you need to accept that your argument is entirely voided about Joeckel & Matthews being top 5 & top 15 picks based on talent alone (absent of Turner's coaching ability) b/c Rivals has them as the 39th & 48th best prospects of 2010, a distant cry from #1 overall which Joeckel presently is by many pundits. Also keep in mind this doesn't include the higher rated draft eligible recruits from 2009 & 2008 who would effectively push Joeckel & Matthews' original recruit rankings further down than 39th & 48th.

    If you factor in ALL of this year's draft eligible players from '08-'10 (includes redshirt) and rank them according to their original recruiting status, Joeckel & Matthews are likely closer to 80th+ overall, which is FAR from directly correlating to a high draft pick. By my math, 65 and beyond puts them in the 3rd round, not top 15.... but you go ahead and keep making excuses.
     
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  33. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    2/15 studs in 4 years in the program.....yup, thats success right there! :up:

    So you are agreeing that he is a **** coach and better talent bailed him out?

    It is equally foolish to say that he is a good coach made better because the talent level was better. And you obviously didn't bother to read the link that I posted to Patrick Lewis' Rivals profile. He is listed as a center . He was the #4 ranked center in the '09 class.

    http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/rankings/rank-2123
     
  34. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    Nope. They played in '07, while Turner was sucking it up for BC. Check it for yourself.

    And all you have is 2 guys once he hit a "big time" program. Think about that for a minute, 2 out of what? 10 each year minimum, so 200 guys minimum that he has coached. That is what, 1% success rate?

    Seriously? this **** again?

    http://rivals.yahoo.com/tamu/footba...eckel-88265;_ylt=AvIfiWIJ0BRFsd1rfeuQdsI8t5B4

    http://rivals.yahoo.com/tamu/footba...thews-80515;_ylt=AlKy9Q5OC3BFQB_SkY.sSoA8t5B4



    you keep on cherry picking........

    http://rivals100.rivals.com/aboutrankings.asp?Sport=1

    now tell me about these lowly ranked OL prospects that super coach(who only started to excel once the talent got better) got in the league........I'll go ahead and grab the popcorn so you can spin it.


    Better yet, how about you look at the phins total offense, rush offense and pass offense rankings from last year to this year and find a way to spin that too.
     
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  35. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    BTW, who cares if he was a center in HS. He played guard his first 2 years at A&M. If that's the angle you want to take it, if anything it that speaks of Turner's ability to move Lewis to guard and develop him into a Freshman All-American during his first year at the position, that is, unless you're new argument is the players coach themselves. lol. So..... thank you?

    ..... and who gives a s*** who brought him in? What the heck does that have to do with the Oline coach?
    Did Turner coach the 2 drafted prospects during their senior year or did he not? YES or NO?!

    Was Lewis converted to a guard by Turner and became freshman AA in the new position under Turner's coaching? YES or NO?!

    Were 2 of the highest rated tackle prospects coached by Turner their first 2 years? YES or NO?!

    Do you even believe the excuses you're coming up with in order to detach Turner from not 1, not 2, but THREE players' success? Yeah, it's ALLLLLLLL a coincidence that all 3 have performed at this high of a level; meanwhile UF's higher rated pair of 2010 tackles aren't sniffing this year's first round and their higher rated pair of 2006 tackles haven't seen a snap in 2012.
     
  36. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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  37. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    yeah, 2 top 15 linemen (plus a 4th & 7th) in 4 years IS success, duh! (especially when every linemen but Joeckel, Matthews, and Lewis were 2-3 star recruits IIRC, and like you said, talent is integral to success)
    WTH do you think qualifies as success?----> having every player (including the backups) as 1st rounders. Gimme a friggin break.

    Nice straw argument. Clearly tells me you have no rebuttal whatsoever. If you wanna play that childish game, I guess you're saying small schools should be consistently putting out NFL linemen. :unsure:

    So no comment by you on the 4th best pass-pro line and 7th best total yardage offense (which you can't have w/o a good oline)?
    Just give it a rest. You've done nothing to prove he's a crappy coach. Your entire argument is, "b/c I say so".

    yeah? And? I don't see anyone saying that. All I see is you saying he's a bad coach despite coaching up the 39th rated 2010 prospect into this year's possible #1 overall pick as just a true junior.... coached up the 48th rated 2010 prospect into a likely top 15 pick as just a junior..... and converted a high school center into a Freshman AA. Yup, that's definitely the sign of a bad coach. :unsure:

    I'll just wait for yet another smart-arsed, straw argument reply.

    and you obviously know nothing about Lewis b/c he played guard as a freshman & sophomore.
     
  38. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Anyone who blames Turner for Jake Long is a short sighted fool to begin with. Considering Jake's problems started long before Turner was ever here. It's just more exposed now because Jake doesn't get as much help from TE's, back chips etc as he used to because they got a rookie at RT.

    Only thing I don't like about not keeping Long is that your pretty much saying that our 1st or 2nd rounder is going straight to LT. Most likely our first as we don't have a capable backup who could in theory step in. Right now that backup is a converted TE in Yeatman. Honestly....franchise Long...give him a year to work it out. UNLESS..someone offers something nice for him and we can pick up a nice option in the draft.
     
  39. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    Do you understand that the 4th and the 7th are the coaching children of the previous staff? Do you fail to grasp that the 08 draft happens after the 07 season is completed? If you don't get that then this conversation needs to stop immediately.

    Where was this raised as a point? Are you pulling posts out your *** again? You have done **** to prove he is a good coach so quit acting like you have because there were a whole whopping 3 guys who stood out, and would stand out ANYWHERE they would play!!!!!!!!!!


    link it or shut up. I've posted links to their rivals profiles twice now. you want to use ESPN, that's fine, but support your argument with links at a minimum.

    OH NOES.....you got me.......seriously, just walk away before you look more foolish giving a coach credit for players he didn't coach.
     
  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Oh, thanks. So over the past 6 years that amounts to Turner coaching:

    • 1st rounder (#17), Gosder Cherilus................. (3 star recruit, 35th ranked tackle)
    • 1st rounder (#22), Anthony Castonzo.............. (2 star recruit)
    • 1st rounder & potential #1, Luke Joeckel......... (39th ranked recruit in nation)
    • 1st rounder & potential top 15, Jake Matthews. (48th ranked recruit in nation)
    • 3rd center drafted in 2010, Matt Tennant........ (2 star, 55th ranked guard)
    • 2 years coaching Lewis............................... (future draft pick; Freshman AA after transferring from C to G)

    WOW, so 3 lower-recruited players from his Boston College line were drafted?.... and now it looks like 3 more will be drafted from his recent TAMU unit (again with 2 more first rounders)??!!! That's awesome!!

    So over the past 6 years his coaching has seen 4 1st rounders? That averages out to a 1st rounder every 1.5 years!! He should be ashamed of himself!!! :lol:


    Hmph, so which college Oline coaches will have seen more of his players drafted in the 1st round since 2007? That's gotta be an important tidbit, no?
    Alabama has a chance to see 4 but it might only be 3.
     

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