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Barry Jackson Sports Buzz

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jim1, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    It would be relevant to the topic in general (as in Drew said something about that topic too), but just not to whether or not my info about them having JPP as the #1 DE on their board was accurate. Since you responded to my post, it seemed as if you were saying, "Drew talks crap so we should disregard what you heard."
     
  2. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Going from base to Nickel inherently involves switching a front seven player for a defensive back, but if Misi isn't really a good pass defender it's another player. If he replaces Burnett and Dansby, he's replacing a true linebacker who is on the field nearly 100% of the snaps.

    There's no problem with Misi being a two-down linebacker at the position he's at, but I think there are at very least concerns and considerations when you've got to have a Nickel substitute for a guy.
     
  3. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    How much, and how often???? Nobody has yet to quantify such a claim, and establish any type of objective expectations.
     
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  4. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    NJ
    Let's not conveniently leave out that Matt Moore was 6-6 as the starter last year with an 87 Rating

    And Chad Pennington facing a tougher schedule in 2009 started the season 0-3 with a Rating of 76.

    These factors are left out by you far too often

    EDIT: And Pennington's Rating in the playoff game in 2008 was 53
     
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  5. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    The point is that when the team got good quarterback play, it won, which is no different from any other team or any other GM in the league.
     
  6. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    NJ
    True. But it's worth noting that good QB play is easier to come by when you're playing .500 teams and below.

    Pennington and Moore were both unable to provide good QB play against > .500 teams. That could have something to do with lack of talent around them. It's the drum many have been banging on for a while.
     
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  7. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Well hell, Ryan Tannehill, as a rookie with a 73 QB rating overall, with that presumably "low" level of talent around him, just beat a 6-4 team. His QB rating in that game was 97.

    Let me know when we're playing like the Redskins, who are below .500 with a QB whose rating is above 100. That's when I'll be convinced we have a problem with the talent around the quarterback.
     
  8. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    NJ
    Our supposed biggest game of the season (against Indy) with playoff implications, our QB had a rating of 90+. The defense was incapable of getting off the field on 3rd down.......no matter how long the distance. Our coverage was awful. That game displayed to me that we lack talent in our defensive backfield, notably our CBs.

    Would that game not qualify as example you're looking for?
     
  9. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    How about any of the several Pro Bowl players who were picked between the #12 pick we traded out of and the Odrick pick.
     
  10. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    That's a phenomenal post.
     
  11. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Not everything has to be quantified to be valid.
     
  12. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Why hasn't it been quantified though?
     
  13. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    So you're saying the expectations of an NFL GM should be to never pass on a pro bowl player? Does that mean every GM is bad? Creating such a binary choice is ridiculous. There isn't a 1 or a 0 outcome. There is an spectrum of potential outcomes, ranging from great to terrible. Suggesting that because the decision wasn't great it is terrible is just intellectually dishonest. Instead, one would be better off determining where along the spectrum the decision falls. Nobody is suggesting that trading down for Odrick and Misi was great, or the best choice.
     
  14. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    What I would be looking for to confirm the idea that the talent around Tannehill is responsible for how the team is doing are objective data that show that, despite how Tannehill himself is playing, the team is doing significantly worse than other teams whose quarterbacks have played similarly.

    Instead, what the objective data show is just the opposite, that the team is playing no more poorly than would be expected with a rookie QB who is playing like Tannehill has. In fact, I researched this myself and did a thread on it here:

    http://www.thephins.com/forums/showthread.php?73384-The-Talent-Surrounding-Ryan-Tannehill&highlight=
     
  15. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Because Merlin gained weight to play DE and he wore it poorly, as if he moved more naturally when he was under 300. He came out of Clemson at 276 pounds. Had the training goal been to get him to a solid, conditioned 265, around where a strong side 3-4 LB can play, I think he'd be having a very good career. Instead he was bulked up until he looked sluggish. Terrible decision.

    Jared Odrick is different IMO. He was already 296 in college and moves like a guy who is unnaturally quick for a big strong lineman. I don't see any linebacker in him. Nowhere near the athleticism in space, or hip movement laterally and backwards that wold have me wanting to convert him to LB. to me he looks like a pass rush DT in a four front.
     
  16. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think that's really an appropriate standard for a pick being a success or failure. A minority of draft picks in the early rounds will be worth what it took to select them in trade at any point during their career.
     
  17. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    If he does it this year I will boycott 2013. Hate to say it but my time is at a premium now with my new biz, and if the team is built to be mediocre with mediocre talent as the philosophy then I'll unplug and spend time on my Tornto Rgonauts, Grey Cup champs.

    I can suffer through losing years when I believe in the philosophy and the. Program, but if I don't, then forget it.

    Go for stars, not hole-fillers.
     
  18. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Unless you're hedging because you don't trust your ability to evaluate accurately.
     
  19. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Only those who care to see it so are seeking the answer.
     
  20. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    The Redskins are great on offense, but poor on defense. The Dolphins have two wins where they only scored 17 points. The Redskins, meanwhile, have two losses where they scored 28 and 31 respectively. That's the difference.

    If you're gonna lack talent, it's better to lack it on offense than defense. At leas if it's on offense, you still have a chance to steal a couple, as the Dolphins did against St. Louis and Cincinnati.
     
  21. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Never did any of what you suggest.

    Did state why our pick could be construed to have premium value as an asset. Unless opportunities to pick possible pro bowlers is not a big asset?
     
  22. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    NJ
    I was initially speaking about Chad Pennington and Matt Moore.

    Why were they both unable to produce good QB play against >.500 teams. Why did Chad Pennington look so awful against Baltimore in 2008 in both games? Can't we attribute that to talent? Or was it Chad Pennington? Or both?

    On behalf of Tannehill, I'd like to look at the games individually. The big difference in the Seattle game and the Buffalo game was that we were able to run the ball effectively. Running the ball effectively will reflect really well on a QBs rating, IMO. It was also a big difference int he 1st and 2nd half of the Indy game.

    I, for one, don't think the receivers are as much of a problem as the OL (notably Incognito, Martin, and to a lesser extent Jerry). And it's the same problem now that we had in 2008 which is why Pennington was unable to have any type of success against a team like Baltimore, and why our running game went through a 4 week period this year where they were unable to generate 2.0 YPC.

    Fix that, or continue on the success we had in the first few weeks and last week against Seattle, and watch Tannehill's rating (or any QB running the offense for that matter) climb
     
  23. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    It's certainly one Standard you could use. Don't people evaluate a stock's performance based on the idea that its value increases, not decreases? If your financial advisor consistently chose lots of mediocre stocks that rarely increased in value, wold you keep him or switch to the advisor who puts you into half as many investments but they usually increase more in value?

    If you are looking back at more picks (than most teams) and saying this player is worth LESS now than when we got him, then you're doing the GM thing wrong.
     
  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Yes, and the same logic as to why that pick is a premium asset (pro bowler being available) also dictates a 2nd or 3rd round pick as premium assets.
     
  25. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Yes, but before you do that, you need to actually quantify what other advisors are doing. You don't just say "I'm not happy with my returns, I'm switching advisors". 99% of financial advisors are under-performing the market.
     
  26. PhinsPhan23

    PhinsPhan23 New Member

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    See, I don't agree with that. I think we need a CB and a pass rushing specialist and focus all of the other picks in the first 3 rounds (which would be 3) on offense. We can make do with our current 3 LBers and I'm ok with letting Clemons develop one more year to see if he can turn into a solid FS.

    I want to see this team get a big WR target and potentially a TE to go along with a lineman or two. This offense needs more help over the defense, especially if we can address the pass rush opposite Wake.
     
  27. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think you can work backwards from presuppositions and come up with a valuable method for analyzing draft success. What you're suggesting is basically a model where a very large majority of draft picks are failures.

    Apply those standards to a draft and see what you get. For demonstration purposes, look at the 2008 1st round draft:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_NFL_Draft

    How many players by those standards would be successful? Even ignoring their individual draft spot, how many of those players would be worth a 1st round pick in trade(excluding the rarity and logistical difficulties of executing the trade) at any point during their rookie contracts?

    By my estimation, pre-slump Jake Long, Matt Ryan, Chris Long, and Ryan Clady are really the good cases. That's what, 12.5%?

    If you apply the standards of being more valuable, you've got what? Matt Ryan maybe?
     
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  28. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Well first, Baltimore wasn't just better than .500. They were 11-5 and went to the Conference Championship and lost the game by single-digit points. So I guess you can attribute that to talent, but if you're judging Jeff Ireland on the standard of needing to beat a team that missed a Super Bowl by single digit points, I'd say that's a pretty harsh standard.

    But you do realize that the average QB rating for a rookie is 73. Under those circumstances, defenses are going to stack the box, take away the running game, and make the rookie QB (who's typically playing poorly) beat them. There goes your running game, and it's attributable to the rookie QB, not to the talent around him.
     
  29. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    it's the story of this franchise...pass on the playmakers who make the huge impact for expendable, average players who make little to no impact. it's become tradition at this point.
     
  30. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the Matt Roth experiment was pretty interesting. Basically you take someone who fits minimum standards of athleticism for a position and then find a way to make them inconvenient for opposing blocking schemes. The coverage elements of a 3-4 OLB(or a similar position) aren't that strong a disqualifying factor, and by lining them up where you do(next to a 300lb. 2-gap player in a 3-4, or someone playing wider of tackle in a 4-3), you're making it hard for teams to block these players with non-tight ends in the run game.


    Was it inherently a terrible decision, or a risky move?

    The best 3-4 DE's in the league right now are bulked up edge rushers. It's JJ Watt, Calais Campbell, and Justin Smith, then everyone else, and I think taking a guy like that and changing them that much is going to have a high risk of failure.
     
  31. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    You are the one with , "blinders" on when it comes to Ireland. He has been here as the teams GM for five years. The Dolphins record over this time is 36-39. This includes a record of 11-5 in his first season as the teams GM. The Dolphins have been a sub 500 team every year since their one winning season in 2008.

    It appears this team is headed for its fourth sub 500 season in a row. Other than the Chiefs, who are terrible, no other GM has done as poorly as Ireland over the last four years. I am at the point that I now see Ross as the real problem with the team. Instead of firing Sparano and Ireland after last season. He was ignorant enough to think that the lack of talent on the roster was all Sparano's fault.

    Ross stated before this season that he expected the Dolphins would make the playoffs and another losing season would not be acceptable. If this is true. I see no way he can retain Ireland if this team once again ends this season with a losing record. With crowds getting smaller at the stadium and the team continuing to be merely a mediocre team in the NFL, Ross needs to fire Ireland and hire a GM who actually knows how to build a winning NFL roster.
     
  32. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Well, if you believe "someone must pay" for that, I suppose you can target Ireland, without doing any further analysis of what he's done as a GM.
     
  33. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    NJ
    We saw the same games against Baltimore. You and I both know that Miami was far inferior.

    Of course I realize this. But just like you, I try to make sense of everything. Like why were we able to run the ball so effectively against Seattle's defense as the game wore on. A good defense. But when we face Buffalo and Indy and their supposed pathetic run Ds, we looked totally outmatched. Surely Seattle was stacking the box, especially given the fact that Tannehill really didn't do much in the first half or even in the beginning of the 3rd quarter. Why were we suddenly able to run the ball so effectively against a better defense?

    I'm not advocating that we have to come out every week and go 4+ YPC. My point is that having your rushing offense perform the way it did against Buffalo is a recipe for disaster unless you have one of the league's top 10 QBs which we can all agree Ryan Tannehill is not......yet.....hopefully
     
  34. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I admit that Ireland has made some good decisions in his five years as the teams GM. I just think his failures far out weight his successes. The fact that this team is still in a rebuilding mode after him being on the job for five years tells me all I need to know about his overall ability as this teams GM.

    Ross was the person who stated before this season that he expected this team to be a playoff team and another losing season would be unacceptable. Parcells, and Sparano, are no longer here to take the blame if the Dolphins once again finish below 500 for the season. Unless Ross is going to blame it all on the coaching and he once again fires his head coach, which I doubt he will do. The only option for Ross is to get rid of the one person who has been here since 2008 and is the man most responsible for the overall lack of talent throughout this roster.

    Attendance continues to decline and the team continues to to finish below 500, year after year. If Ross keeps Ireland after this season, most Dolphin fans will be extremely upset and season ticket sales will continue to decline.

    The only way I can see Ross keeping Ireland is if the Dolphins win out and finish the season 10-6 and they make the playoffs. So if they beat the Patriots twice and the 49ers next week. All they will have to do after that is to beat the Bills and Jags to finish 10-6. If they do this, I will certainly have to reconsider the job Ireland has done as the teams GM. All the Dolphins have to do over the next five weeks is prove me wrong. I hope they do.
     
  35. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is so ***-backwards. You're doing everything to argue your case but the thing that would theoretically be so easy and self-evident, while trying to make excuses for being unable to do so.

    It's my genuine hope that before the issue is resolved with any outcome that you people evolve beyond the equivalent of this:

    [​IMG]
     
  36. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    That's our GM in a nutshell.
     
  37. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I would say that was our GM under Parcells' thumb. Our GM unfettered is less rigid.
     
  38. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    The only cartoon on this forum is you. You are a complete joke and you don't even realize it. Of course, what can be expected from someone who guaranteed a winning record for the Dolphins before the season began. I sometimes think you have your head so far up Ireland's butt, you suffer from a severe lack of oxygen. That is why you so often make so many absurd comments on this forum.
     
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  39. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I guess this isn't any less supportive of what you're trying to claim than any other posts you make, so rock on.

    Also, by all means show me where I suggested anything of the sort. Just to help you out, I did pretty clearly make a prediction.
     

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