Receiver Brian Hartline, asked by Jacksonville writers this week about what it’s like playing here, said: “It will be interesting to see if I’m going to enjoy watching this team get better and get onto a better situation or I might find myself in another offense.” Asked what he meant by that, Hartline pointed out his contract is expiring. But he strongly suggested he wants to stay: “The organization’s great. I love playing for my coaching staff [and] I think we’re headed on the right track.” Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sports-buzz/#storylink=cpy This could be interesting. It sounds to me like Hartline might be expecting a pay grade higher than his talent level. If he was a bigger part of the solution and a clutch, go to guy he would have shown a lot more of that in the last 4 years. The WR crew has to be upgrade, it will be upgraded, and I doubt that Ireland will want to pay him more than what a 3 or 4 caliber WR should get. Maybe that one huge game went to his head in an otherwise unremarkable season .
IMO Hartline should be re-signed at a rate comparable to the significantly above-average #2 receivers in the league.
Hartline is an average WR and should be paid accordingly. If he is looking to be paid anymore than thay you let him walk.
I think that's what an above average #2 WR implies, and I agree, if he demands a lot of money, then bye-bye
Fair enough. Maybe I read too much into it. But I took above average to mean borderline #1. I could be dead wrong, shou may not of meant that at all. IMO, no way is Hartline even a bordeline #1. He's not even close. He's an average at best #2, very good #3 and should be paid that way.
I think the thing about Brian Hartline is where are you going to find a replacement? (On any street corner, you *******. Hartline is stupid and boring and slow and wasn't drafted high and doesn't hit ANY women) I think it's hard to find a player you know will be productive and fit the system who you can reasonably slot financially as a #2 receiver in free agency, and drafting one is going to leave at least a very big hole short term and result in a holding pattern at wide receiver.
I mostly agree. I just don't want to over pay his stupid, boring, slow, low-drafted, non-hitting-women ***.
I don't really agree at all with your premise that Hartline is an average #2. I don't think that really stands up to the production of #2s. I think it's also worth mentioning that Hartline still has upside. He's playing with a rookie quarterback not lighting the world on fire, in his first year of an offense, and didn't have any training camp/preseason.
His numbers this season are skewed by one big game. In many other games this season he's been largely invisible.
No, but it's not likely. Look, I'm not advocating getting rid of Hartline. I like him. I just think he is miscast in his current role as a #1. And if he wants to be paid like it - or anything close to it - we should walk away.
Our third most productive WR has 83 yards on the season, which averages out to around six yards per game. That explains a lot imo.
Pay him Bess + inflation money. Otherwise let him walk if you don't plan to go heavy in free agency and try to recoup a pick. If some team is foolish enough to give him a solid contract we could get a late 4th for him.
Eliminate that game and average what he's gotten without it over 16 games and he ends up with 896 yards on a season. He would not have to go on a particularly uncharacteristically productive stretch these final three games to get 1k. No, I don't think it does. I think you'd have a point if Hartline were getting a huge target workload, or if he were performing inefficiently. Neither is the case.
I looked it up, and in 7 out of 13 games so far this year Hartline has 50 yards or less, and for the season he has 1 TD. He's a reasonably productive WR who had a huge, career game that has pumped up his stats. Hartline and Bess on the field together don't scare anyone, and neither is a go-to clutch player. They're threes and fours, his own GM admitted to that. Money has to be spent on the defense, money has to be spent on better WRs, and Hartline imo should be happy to get a reasonable contract. He's a competent WR, but nothing special. When it comes to the WR crew I'm more excited to see what Rishard Matthews can do tomorrow than anything else.
So what exactly does that mean? Is that different from the production of players in the same position as Hartline? Is the composition of his year somehow abberent, when you consider even without his big game it was pretty possible for him to still end up with 1,000 yards? I like how there are two contradictory, yet omnipresent narratives regarding Bess and Hartline. They are productive only because they don't scare anyone, yet our lack of weapons means shutting them down is easy and consequence free. Teams can shut Bess and Hartline down anytime they want, but they don't because they don't respect them, and that would be...mean, cruel, and unsporting? No he didn't. No one is arguing that the Dolphins don't need more talent at wide receiver. That doesn't mean you should denigrate Hartline or Bess come up with ridiculous theories for their success or performance or success because they don't get your juices flowing as a fan. Brian Hartline is a pretty average starting "#1" wide receiver, and he's quite a bit above average league-wide. Denying this I think pretty clearly contradicts Hartline's performance this year, and the actual in-practice performance of #2 wide receivers. The number of teams with two 1,000 yard wide receivers, or who have the capability to reasonably produce that is much lower than you and others seem to believe.
It would be interesting to take a survey and find out how many GMs would want Hartline as their #1 WR, or even their #2. I can't imagine one GM out there who could say with a straight face that he'd be happy to have Hartline as a primary receiver. And I can't really imagine than many GMs at all would be happy with Hartline as a #2, but at least that discussion is a bit more down to earth and at least semi plausible. We have a crap WR squad and Hartline and Bess are more role players thrust into starting roles due to a lack of roster talent than anything else. They're competent, but they're rarely difference makers who can actually provide synergy to an offense, and they don't keep defenses from crowding the LOS. Pretty much everyone sees this. They'd be adequate in reduced roles, but as a starting tandem they're weak and they hamper the entire offense. One less than threating WR on the field is plausible, two is a problem. I'm curious to see what happens when Ross and the FO are asked to vote on how good Hartline really is with checkbook in hand. That should be interesting. And as to the whole 1000 yard thing, if you think that it's ridiculous to think that the third most productive WR in the team is averaging SIX YARDS PER GAME and that effects Hartline's productivity- well, you're entitled to your opinion.
...and ironically, they attribute it to Hartline and Bess, rather than to the very raw rookie QB who's throwing them passes.
Well, it goes both ways and Tanehill certainly isn't without fault. I don't really see a hate fest when it comes to Bess and Hartline, just a general consenus that we'd be best served as a team by increasing the WR talent level and having both of them play lesser roles. Hartline and Bess are pretty much what they have been for the last 4 or 5 years- decent wide receivers. They're larger pieces to the offense this year because Chad Johnson got canned, Naane flamed out and Marlon Moore is a non factor. Truth be told, both Bess and Hartline have performed better this year than I expected. But that doesn''t change anything in terms of our WR crew being one of the worst, if not the worst in the NFL and in dire need a talent infusion. And if we have to spend big money and draft picks on that position, that pretty much indicates that the incumbents aren't getting the job done. Creeping towards 1000 yards doesn't make either one of them playmakers, just competent receivers on a team that is utterly devoid of a legitimate third option. Hopefully Rishard Matthews can change that.
This is really an appeal to authority we can't really answer, and is more reflective of the belief around here, which I'm not sure is really reflective of anything bigger. I don't think any GM would be satisfied with the overall composition of the Dolphins receiving targets, but Hartline/Bess as being unacceptable in any meaningful role is not something that is really supportable by anything tangible. Not by the composition in terms of talent of highly successful passing offenses, or for that matter anything that doesn't fall under a measure of fan hype. There is no measurement of "threat". The idea that Hartline and Bess produce only because they're not considered threats does not stand up to the fact by that measure with have nothing close to other threats. If Brian Hartline and Davone Bess are not drawing adequate scrutiny from defenses, no one is. What then? Are opposing defenses being charitable? That third most receiver has nothing to do with Bess and Hartline. If either of them were going to end up with 130+ target workloads, then that would be worth consideration. It's not a particularly big stretch that Brian Hartline is as productive as he is next year as a #2.
You know Shou... Ironically, the raw rookie (without BM) without a true # 1 WR, is only 91 total passing yards (for #1-#3 WR, BH, DB and MM) behind last years numbers... and that was with Mat Moore and Henne too... Not bad for a rookie don't you thinK...
I would be satisfied with HL and Bess being our # 3 and 4 receivers if we get a true #1 and a real threat at TE
You're right, it's not a stretch because if Hartline were truly #1/top target material he'd be seeing greater production as a #1 than at #2, not equal to it.
Your earlier statement: "There is no measurement of "threat". The idea that Hartline and Bess produce only because they're not considered threats does not stand up to the fact by that measure with have nothing close to other threats. If Brian Hartline and Davone Bess are not drawing adequate scrutiny from defenses, no one is. What then? Are opposing defenses being charitable?" -- First of all, that second sentence of yours makes almost no sense. Second, as to the concept of being a receiving threat both Bess & Hartline have a whopping combined 2 touchdowns and aren't exactly consistent go-to receivers in clutch time. Stating that there is "no measurement of threat" is just semantic nonsense. Third, opposing defenses aren't being charitable- they're often putting 8 men in the box and stifling/constricting our offense to the point that it's been described as a terminal red zone offense, because Hartline and Bess are not threats and do not stretch the field. 1000 yards receiving on the year isn't some kind of magical number, it's around 60 yards/game over the course of a 16 game season, and there is always garbage time yardage to consider. It's not necessarily a reflection of prime time, clutch play- or either receiver being a legitimate threat.
I don't think it's too unclear. Brian Hartline and Davone Bess are apparently productive because defenses don't feel the need to try and take them away. If not Hartline and Bess, WHO are they trying to take away? No one? It sure as **** isn't Reggie Bush. He does a good enough job taking himself out of games. Touchdowns are not a meaningful measure of ability. There are both talented players who do not produce touchdowns, and not particularly good players who produce a lot of them. You're still arguing the same contradictory ideas. Brian Hartline and Davone Bess are productive because defenses don't respect them, and because they don't respect them defenses are somehow able to take away "__________________", where the blank is a complete and total mystery in the context of what else teams are going to feel the need to shut down. Also putting a safety in the box doesn't have a tremendous amount to do with respecting or not respecting either the passing or run game in the modern NFL. It's as much a method as improving your pass defense as anything in the modern NFL.
If Hartline performs no better as a #1 target than he does as a #2 target, then I'm obviously left questioning his ability as a #1, top target.
See, this is exactly the fundamental disconnect I'm talking about. Antonio Brown has one noteworthy year of production in his NFL career: 2011- 69 receptions, 1,108 yards, 2 touchdowns. Brian Hartline is on pace for the following this year: 76 receptions , 1138 yards, 1.23 touchdowns Somehow, Antonio Brown is double as good as Brian Hartline. Why? Because he's not currently on the Dolphins? Because his name has been on TV more? The intellectual argument is so much less developed than the emotional it isn't even remotely funny.
I'm going to quickly respond to these points and then bow out of this discussion, because it's turning a little too close into what I imagine debate camp would be like, ie less than enjoyable and a waste of time. -- H&B are decently productive because they are decent receivers and there are no other WRs to take up any slack, leaving almost the entire body of work to those two. 60 yards per game or so isn't anything to write home about - it's not just the quantity of yards that counts, it's the quality. Bess had a good game against Seattle, Hartline had his career game. Other than that both have been pretty vanilla, but Hartline did have a couple other 100 yard games, which was nice. Defenses are loading the box and trying to take away the running game, to answer your question. -- Touchdowns aren't an end all and be all measuring stick, but they are important. As to the issue of them not being go-to or clutch receivers, you didn't touch that one- no surprise there, because they aren't. -- You keep harping on this point that I'm saying B&H are productive because defenses don't respect them- that's not the case. What I am saying, repeatedly, is that we basically have no 3rd or 4th WR options, so B&H are dividing nearly the entire WR yardage pie between themselves. There are for all intents and purposes no other WR options. Opposing defenses are disrespecting B&H, loading the box and playing tight to the LOS, which has an effect on our running game and our short passing game because we can't regularly stretch the field. That's the major consequence of defenses not respecting B&H, but logic would dictate that having a S close to the LOS should make life easier on B&H. And what price do the defenses pay? Giving up 60 relatively inconsequential "whoopey doo" yards to B&H per game? Big deal. And of course the whopping 2 TDs. --As to this: "Also putting a safety in the box doesn't have a tremendous amount to do with respecting or not respecting either the passing or run game in the modern NFL. It's as much a method as improving your pass defense as anything in the modern NFL." You're kidding, right? If that safety isn't being used to blitz, 8 in the box is a reflection of choosing to defend the run because the deep passing threat isn't so great. Is your point of view basically that since B&H might get 1000 yards receiving each- 60 yards per game or so- while being piss poor at scoring TDs and rarely game changers- and therefore must be very good WRs? And the main evidence is this 1000 yard mark? Consider that question rhetorical, because I don't want to spend any more time on this. They are average receivers- Bess is an average 3rd down slot receiver who shouldn't be starting and Hartline is a decent #2 at best. And I repeat, at best. in my book he's a 3 or 4. Jmo of course.
And in those years, Antonio Brown was receiving passes from Ben Roethlisberger, who had a 90 QB rating, whereas Brian Hartline is receiving them from a rookie with a 72 rating. Sometimes I think you're better off using posts like the one responded to above to identify whom to put on ignore, rather than responding to them.
Antonio Brown averages 7 million a season. That's a slight over payment, I think. Hartline should get a similar deal. 5, maybe 6, million a season.
Brown did that on a team with three legitimate WR threats, a solid TE, and an offense that loves to run the football. Brian Hartline is doing this in his fourth year on a team with two WR's that should be playing on an NFL team. Raw numbers mean jack **** and the sooner you guys realize that, the sooner we can actually have a sensible conversation about this. This is just like the James Jones debate. The guy has 9TD's on a team with a plethora of receiving threats and over 600 yards, but because one number is smaller than the other, Hartline must be better and all TD's must be disregarded because I say so.
You could sign Hartline, and then sign Jennings. You have Jennings, a clear cut #1. And you bring back Hartline, who is a huge upgrade over a rookie, and a clear cut #2.
