1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

West Coat Offense 101 [What Ireland & Philbin will be looking for in the draft & FA]

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Perfectville_USA, Jan 6, 2013.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Though you can argue that I was indeed "attacking" you it wasn't for being a new poster. I don't do that sort of thing, at all. I was "attacking" you simply because I perceived you to be attacking pretty much everyone around you, talking about how nobody knows anything, etc. I know that doesn't seem like a direct attack but it's kind of an indirect one and even if it's not directed at me specifically, even if I'm a stated exception (which happens), I tend to take offense on behalf of other folks. I guess I'm over-sensitive.

    Welcome to the forum. Your knowledge and the care with which you present it, is appreciated.
     
    Boik14, shula_guy and Bpk like this.
  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I don't think Omar Kelly is someone you should be citing for specifics on coaching. Just my personal opinion. I think the argument would be stronger if you had quotes from an actual coach saying that they use the term "pulling" to mean either of those things.

    I know this. When Omar Kelly asked Joe Philbin specifically about where they were going to find a "pulling guard" for their offense, Philbin shot it down and said in their scheme they don't actually have that many plays that involve actual pulling. He certainly seems to be under the impression that "pulling" is a specific blocking technique and not a vague term to be applied to any offensive lineman that has to make a second level block.
     
    ToddPhin likes this.
  3. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

    42,442
    24,982
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    you beat me to it.
     
    Bpk likes this.
  4. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I'd say the same thing if I had John Jerry as my starting RG.

    I wonder, though, if Joe Philbin's ideal offense wouldn't have more pulling from the guard.

    And, to be clear, which running plays does a guard pull on? I want to make sure I am talking about the right thing.

    As I recall from the little diagrams on Madden, which is sadly about 50% of my basis of blocking knowledge, HB sweep, toss, and outside zone plays looked like they had a guard pull. And to me, pulling means a guard runs behind and to the outside of the Tackle to execute his block.
     
  5. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Omar Kelly and Bill Walsh are in agreement.

    Poor Bill.
     
  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Alen already beat me to the punch but pulling occurs on plays that are called "power", and it also occurs on many "counter" plays. My understanding is that the different kinds of run plays would mainly be "counter", "power", "inside zone", "outside zone", and "iso". I'm probably missing a few, and my level of detail is frighteningly inadequate, but that's my understanding nonetheless.
     
    Perfectville_USA and Bpk like this.
  7. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

    23,327
    35,934
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Thats is too much of copyrighted material posted.Please reduce to two sentences and give us a link so that the members can read the whole article..
    Your own opinion however can be as long as you like.
     
  8. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,811
    20,365
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    A trap block and kickout block are not the same thing.
     
  9. Perfectville_USA

    Perfectville_USA Mr Perfect

    607
    302
    0
    Dec 27, 2012
    Syracuse NY
    Kick out block from what I understand, is when the guard releases his man, the tackle will crash down most of the time. The free up guard moves out, get's into the space and blocks the next level defender. [LB. S or CB]

    Dolphins will try to add athletic quick guards to do this, great example is: in the three cone drill [Guards that score high, will be the one's we will be taking a closer look at]

    I still think the Artis Hicks injury, really hurt us. Also we might have found a very rough diamond in Josh Samuda, I believe he was a undrafted FA. Who could turn into something. Then again maybe I'm being way too critical on Jerry & Incognito. I expected to see the same style of offense Green Bay used the past 3-4 seasons, not what we ran this past season. I believe the guards in-ability to get out and make plays, killed this year's offense.
     
    Bpk likes this.
  10. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,811
    20,365
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    Kick out is an inside-out block at the end of the line of scrimmage. Typically you see it from fullbacks or tight ends. They engage and drive the defender outside, with a goal in mind to have the defender's back facing the sideline.
     
  11. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

    24,029
    40,478
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    Plus, Sherman did not use the back much in the passing game at Texas A&M, and Philbin did not use the back much in the passing game in Green Bay. This is why I'm not convinced they are going to attempt to bring Bush back. He's not ideal for the offense as a zone runner because he has too much hesitation and east-west movement. Lamar Miller, long term, is more of a one cut guy that will stick his foot in the ground and get up the field. They definitely want their backs to be able to pass block though, which is why Miller did not play more as a rookie and why Donald Thomas did.
     
    Perfectville_USA likes this.
  12. Perfectville_USA

    Perfectville_USA Mr Perfect

    607
    302
    0
    Dec 27, 2012
    Syracuse NY
    The coaching staff got to get Lamar Miller up to speed on his pass blocking. I love to see what Miller can do, as the starting tailback next year.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I remain as intrigued with Lamar Miller as ever but I don't think you can head into 2013 with him as your only hope at the tailback position.

    And a backfield consisting of Lamar Miller and Daniel Thomas entails heading into 2013 with Miller as your only hope at the tailback position. Unless you particularly enjoy averaging under 4 yards a carry.

    I remain as high on Jonas Gray as a UDFA signing as ever, but he's still just a UDFA coming off a serious knee problem. I personally try not to operate under the impression that I've fooled the entire football world to that great a degree, until I see evidence of it.
     
  14. Perfectville_USA

    Perfectville_USA Mr Perfect

    607
    302
    0
    Dec 27, 2012
    Syracuse NY
    I think we still going to be in rebuilding mode, [know people hate that word] but I perfer to go young at a few postion like RB. Keep some cap space open for 2014, then see what happens. Also Reggie about to turn 29, if comes back at the right price? Yea, I love to see him back.
     
  15. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,811
    20,365
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    Well, they've been doing work on running backs. I know they've already done medical background checks on one highly rated RB.
     
  16. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

    24,029
    40,478
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    I agree with this. If Daniel Thomas could ever stay healthy, he could be a good inside zone runner. He can't stay healthy though.

    I guess the question is what kind of back will they want to be in tandem with Miller? Do they want a guy like Kenjon Barner/Joseph Randle, or do they want a guy like Monte Ball/Stepfan Taylor?

    Personally, I think a good fit for them would be Mike Gillislee from Florida.
     
  17. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,811
    20,365
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    Gillislee is a downhill guy IMO. He's a Power and Counter type runner a la Demarco Murray.
     
    ssmiami likes this.
  18. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

    30,224
    36,965
    113
    Dec 2, 2007
    Jersey
    Bush is 27. He's got plenty left. If I had it my way I'd keep the same running back group we had this year. Miller has shown some flashes and Thomas is at least a good goal line back when he's healthy. Reggie is a playmaker and has proved it the last 2 years. He may cost you some yardage sometimes but he'll usually make up for it.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I think everyone is doing a lot of medical work on that guy though because it's a key question on a key player in this Draft. But yeah I'm glad they're looking at the position.

    It's by no means easy to find a good tailback but it's also not amongst the hardest positions either. I love Gio Bernard, but down the road you might get good production out of Andre Ellington, Johnathan Franklin, Ray Graham or Dennis Johnson...four of my favorites. I've not particularly been a buyer of Le'Veon Bell but if you really want a big bodied pounder there's always Cameron Marshall. It's hard for me to trust Knile Davis because of his fumbling habits which are very strong, but if you as a coach think you can fix him he would be intriguing enough.
     
  20. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Looking around the league at teams that run ZBS, its becoming clear to me that RB is a lot bigger of a need for Miami than previously believed. The team really could benefit from a more consistent and better RB. I'm not sure anyone on the roster currently can give them that.
     
  21. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

    24,029
    40,478
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    Got to be Giovanni Bernard then.
     
  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Not a big fan for us to take..
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I don't think it's about health with Daniel Thomas. I think it's about consistent vision and instincts for the position. There are 'cradle' instincts that just aren't a part of his game.

    The easy answer to what type of back you want combining with Lamar Miller, who is clearly a speedster with limited tight red viability, is to get a pounder. That's why I love that we have Jonas Gray as finding the end zone was something of a specialty of his back at Notre Dame, and he's got the physical qualities to remain the kind of intriguing player that he was when he was highly recruited. That could be a Bryce Brown type of find. But like I said you never want to operate under the assumption you've fooled the rest of the NFL to that great a degree until you actually see evidence of it.

    However the reality is you just want talent. Get too far into "types" and "roles" and sometimes you lose the forest for the trees. I'm not trying to speak in obvious platitudes but I really do feel like this happens a lot. Andre Ellington is really just a superb player that should be able to gain yards and make an impact at the next level. I would hate to just not draft him because you're convinced you need a pounder, and so you go for a Christine Michael whom I feel may be a little overrated. The Dolphins did this with Daniel Thomas, taking him above guys like Kendall Hunter and Demarco Murray because he fit a mold...and that could be why they made that mistake.

    Among pounders though...I like Cameron Marshall of Arizona State. He'll be cheap, and he's effective. When you get a guy like him you know what you're trying to get and with him I think you get it. He's produced touchdowns on about 36 percent of his Goal to Go carries. Jonas Gray type absurd percentages aside, that's a pretty good long term percentage, and the kind of physically powerful tough running and tackle breaking that should lead into that number are evident on his tape. His long speed is a little underrated as well. That's the kind of effectiveness a Stepfan Taylor gives you at the goal line (37%), though a bit behind what a reputable power runner like Montee Ball gives you (45%), but at a greatly reduced price.

    But they come in all shapes and sizes. Andre Ellington for instance has given Clemson decent "all-around back" level (which implies 215 lbs types) of touchdown effectiveness (32%) while clearly being a smaller, yard-gaining scat type of back. That figure is going to be better than the Mike Gillislees (27%) or even the Johnathan Franklins (24%) of the draft. Similarly, although I think you could probably attribute this at least in part to some of the unique characteristics of the offense, Kenjon Barner probably has one of the best percentages of all (42%) in terms of converting Goal to Go carries into touchdowns, and it's not like we're talking about a dearth of carries either.

    I've consistently pointed out Ray Graham as a guy I like, and while I didn't know the percentages until I looked them up just now, one reason I like him is despite being a smaller guy that can clearly gain yards, he shows particular aptitude on the goal line at 42%.

    I've also consistently pointed out Dennis Johnson as a guy I love at tailback, really since the 2010 Draft it's been that long. One of the reasons is because of the tackle breaking ability and surprising power. You'd have thought that would show up in Goal to Go and carries near the goal line but he just didn't receive many of those opportunities due to the role they had him in. But then he gets those opportunties this year, and not so surprisingly he scored touchdowns on an amazing 7 of 9 carries in Goal to Go in 2012. That puts his career percentage the highest of those discussed at 50%, though at only 14 carries. But because of the low number of carries, you can cross-check a little bit with carries from the opponents' 9 yard line or less, and he's converted touchdowns on 9 of 20 of those attempts, which means he was 2 of 6 (33%) on carries inside the 10 yard line that weren't Goal to Go, which to me shows that this trend isn't just a product of a small sample.

    As more evidence that this tends to be something I like, I've brought up Zac Stacy and Latavius Murray before as two more underrated players I like. Again, didn't know the percentages until I just looked them up, but not a coincidence that they're both high at 43%.

    Dennis Johnson - 50% (only 14 carries)
    Montee Ball - 45%
    Giovanni Bernard - 43%
    Zac Stacy - 43%
    Latavius Murray - 43%
    Kenjon Barner - 42%
    Ray Graham - 42%
    George Winn - 41%
    Rex Burkhead - 38%
    Christine Michael - 37%
    D.J. Harper - 37%
    Stepfan Taylor - 36%
    Cameron Marshall - 36%
    Andre Ellington - 32%
    Robbie Rouse - 32%
    Jawan Jamison - 27%
    Mike Gillislee - 27%
    Johnathan Franklin - 24%
    Kerwynn Williams - 19%
    Theo Riddick - 17%* (only 12 carries)

    I'm not trying to use a stat as an all-encompassing indicator of whether a guy is any good or not. I just find it informative, especially at the very high end and at the very low end. I especially find it interesting that some of the guys that I tend to like because of the characteristics they show like Dennis Johnson whom I've consistently talked about for years and believe is in actuality one of the two or three best backs in this draft, happens to show extreme success in this area.
     
    dolfan32323 and Perfectville_USA like this.
  24. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

    18,044
    19,678
    113
    Dec 8, 2007
    Well away from here
    I second that, I read that and was a bit miffed.

    I think it should also be explained a good many people know very well the difference between zone blocking and man, and a whole lot more.
     
  25. Perfectville_USA

    Perfectville_USA Mr Perfect

    607
    302
    0
    Dec 27, 2012
    Syracuse NY
    What about Marcus Lattimore? Can he come back like Frank Gore did? He declared for the Draft. Could end up being a steal in the late rounds. If healthy you could argue best RB in college football. [nasty .. nasty... knee injury though]
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Not really for me to answer to be honest. The doctors have to give their opinions. My gut based on some of the initial assessments I saw is that you probably wouldn't want to touch him until very late in the Draft. But that's not based on much.

    Sometimes you can really benefit from a pick like that if you're convinced all it's going to take is time. The Dolphins got a nice boon out of Yeremiah Bell that way.
     
  27. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

    2,671
    879
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Chesapeake, Virginia
    You could look at the offense from different perspectives. You need a strong passing game in order to open things up for a good running attack. You also need a good running attack to balance things out and open things up for your passing game to be effective. We had weaknesses in both this year and both need to be addressed this year. Strengthen both and you will have a good strong offensive attack. In my own personal opinion Bush needs to be a change of pace back and Lamar Miller should be looked at as the primary running back. Is Daniel Thomas that second back to spell Miller from time ti time? We just don't know yet. They have tried hard to make Bush the primary running back and it just hasn't worked. We have a lot of needs on both sides of the ball but we will just have to see where their priorities lie.
     
  28. WhiteIbanez

    WhiteIbanez Megamediocremaniacal

    2,155
    837
    0
    Aug 10, 2012
    This sounds like the opinion of a wishful Canes fan. Miller hasn't proven anything except that he can pull off a few decent situational runs when called upon. He struggled in blocking assignments all season.
    Not to mention the leadership vacancy that would occur at the position if Reggie Bush leaves.
    Sure Lamar is a young player and will develop but the guarantees some fans are making on this guy just might be a premature ejaculation.
     
  29. Gunner

    Gunner Rock Hunter

    4,250
    1,262
    0
    Jan 5, 2008
    Mobile, AL
    Instead of starting another Jeff Ireland thread, I'll just post this here :D

    @AdamHBeasley is doing a play by play tweet of his press conference. I am guessing it will be aired on NFL Network during the live practice at noon eastern time today
     

Share This Page