Paul Soliai Is An Obstacle.... to our D-line's Improvement

You do realize you just named the elite DT's in the game right....not many of those out there

 

I'm not so sure, Aqua. All of them have like 4-5 dominant games that may or may not impact the game. They're almost always great at the beginning of the season, but they all go through stretches of mediocrity. Even Suh has stretches where he's a complete non-factor.

 

The way this forum talks about our Dline and Sean Smith you'd think we weren't the 7th ranked scoring D, #1 in redzone TDs, #1 in redzone TD percentage, 4th in points per play, 4th in yards per point, 4th in TDs per game, 7th in sacks, 7th in rushing ypc, and 4th in rushing first down percentage.

 

Don't get me wrong, I respect Soliai's contributions, but there are a lot of guys like that out there. That Star kid coming out in this year's draft comes to mind. I've never even seen him and I liken him to the rest of these guys.

 

I agree, if it were between Odrick and Soliai, I choose Soliai. Don't want to see what the run defense or how the linebacker core plays if the big guy ever leaves.

 

wouldn't it be safe to assume that Pat White was a Sparano want. I mean he went to NYJ and got Tebow to effectively bomb just like Pat white did. Seems to me like its safe to say that was all Sparano and the wild cat

 

Odrick should be a rotational guy, but because we foolishly used a 1st rounder on him, benching him would feel like yet another waste of a draft pick to some fans, but hey, first of all they should be used to wasted picks by now, and secondly putting average players on the field more often than they should be out there makes your team worse.

same issue with Daniel Thomas.

 

Why not just trade Odrick? He is not as good as Solai at this point. Not even close so there is no way, I want to move Solai when I could just take one of my draft picks and get a player to play opposite Wake.

Solai is not the best DT in the league but between he and Starks one of them draws a double team on almost every play. Getting someone who demands attention opposite Wake and you'll see the line improve big time......imo

 

Let's not outsmart ourselves. Creating holes to fill at some other time isnt wise. Solai is a pillar on this defense, and we're definitely not ready to replace him. Lets think of other ways to improve the team without losing its best players.

 

Just for a frame of reference, here are Soliai's PFF grades. I think their run defense grades especially for linemen are quite reliable.

2012: -1.0 run defense
2011: +2.8 run defense
2010: +12.4 run defense
2009: +1.3 run defense

Outside of 2010, he's been average. I don't think you can refer to going with a different player as creating a hole or screwing around with a strength when it isn't needed.

 

He wasn't very good when he played at DT. Suggesting that the Dolphins get rid of Soliai, one of their best players on the DL and replace him with a below average Odrick is absolutely absurd. I swear people who make comments like this are fans of the Jets, Patriots, or Bills and they would like nothing better than for the Dolphins to remain irrelevant.

If the Dolphins cut Odrick today, I don't think this would effect the team in a negative way at all. In fact this would give the team more cap space to find a much better player than Odrick for the defensive line.

 

IMO you need that Soliai type. I think our run D would suffer too much without him. I also don't agree that Ireland won't draft a situational guy. Before last year's draft he specifically said that he wanted production out of his picks in the first three rounds, but that that production could be limited to nickel situations at first. I see the choice as Starks or Odrick.

 

in all fairness to Jeff Ireland (who I hate) Odrick was drafted by another regime using the 3-4, not the 4-3...

 

What criteria are they using to give these grades?

 

Plenty of teams succeed without a Soliai type.

 

Solai has always played a critical role to help the defense limit rushing TDs; including when he struggled to break into the starting lineup. It's one thing to take some snaps away from him if you expect the offense to pass a lot between the 20s, but it makes no sense to weaken the defense's best attribute.

At the end of the day, Solai's role should make players around him better. It was a bit disappointing that Dansby and Burnett did not make more plays; however, perhaps that was due to defense having a significant number of players in new positions and depth provided by unheralded rookies. Going into a 2nd year of Coyle's defense with most of the players returning, it would be interesting to see if Solai can make play to free a gap for a blitzing LB or push his man into Wake's blocker.

I wish reporters would ask Coyle better questions for some insight on how he envisions the defense. With his years with Marvin Lewis, my hunch is that he highly values how Solai and Odrick ability to free up other players to make plays. Last preseason may have impacted how aggressive the defense played as the LB depth looked horrible. Fortunately, they enter into the next season with confidence to give more snaps to Misi, Vernon, and Kaddu. Moreover, I like to hear Coyle talk about Justin Smith and Geno Atkins. I wonder if Odrick's role is influenced by Smith's and if a disruptive DT can be found later rounds by looking for SEC player with average measurables (Ratliff, Kyle Williams, Atkins, etc).

 

Looking at the player on a play and grading outcomes.

 

Sparano was probably on board with the idea, but most indicators seem to point to Parcells and Ireland driving that bus:

Dolphins Might use Pat White to bring Spread Offense to NFL

Parcells regrets not taking Ryan, White pick

 

From what I recall, didn't Kevin Coyle say towards the end of the year that Odrick was just starting to learn the nuances of playing a 4-3 end in his system? Given that, and the fact that they like moving him around the dline, I can't see them being in any hurry to move him to DT on a more permanent basis.

I think where they go with the #12 pick might be more dependent on what they think of Vernon's ceiling.

 

I have to counter this with the fact that Ireland traded Vontae. He traded Marshall so I see no reason why he would not trade Odrick if he feels he can get a decent pick or that he thinks he can upgrade the DE position in the draft. Then he could trade Odrick for the sake of cap relief....

You take Solai out of the lineup and the line is much worse. You take Odrick out of the lineup and the line is almost the same. Less some depth

 

Based on what, exactly?

Where is this idea that Soliai is that good of a run defender coming from? Because he's big and fat?

 

Based on watching him play. Based on watching Odrick play the same position. You see him draw doubles quite often because it takes him out of the play. That leaves Starks open. The numbers you put up don't explain everything that happens.

For a big, fat DT, he moves rather well. This past season was not his best and especially near the end but I'd take him over Odrick all day long.

 

I think you're way disproportionately focused on when he is performing particularly well. Sometimes he does look quite good, it's just that those times aren't often enough to justify his paycheck.

Odrick and Soliai aren't comparable. They don't play the same position, and they wouldn't play the same position the same way if it came down to that. Soliai's style isn't inherently better, either. Being a guy who is going to be in a position to make himself available to blockers isn't really inherently more valuable when you're not winning it as often as you should.

 

They do play the same position at times! In a 4/3 scheme he is exactly the body type that's needed. I'm not even talking about his money. I could care less about how much he makes really. Being that the team is supposedley far under the cap. Like I said before, he did not have a great year by any means last season but thinking that Odrick can take his spot is a huge reach! Huge!

Find me a better player than him. By all means, cut or trade him. But do not create an even bigger hole to fill in hopes of getting a DE to pair with Wake.

 

I think there's still quite a big distinction between the 1-technique Soliai mostly plays and the 3-technique position Odrick plays when he is a tackle for the most part.

But what I'm saying is you can play the same position different ways. Jay Ratliff plays basically the same position with the same responsibilities Paul Soliai does, but he does so completely differently. Ratliff isn't taking on double teams and attempting to hold his ground and control the line, but he's a better Nose Tackle than Soliai.

But his money is an inherent part of the deal. The team is under the cap now, but teams who sign players to inefficient contracts do not successfully remain so for long.

Soliai is a free agent after this season. It doesn't make sense to move him now, but you've got to consider the future. You can use this year to draft someone and push them into the role.

 

I that kind of vein, I'd really like the Dolphins to explore Glenn Dorsey.

He's been a bit of a strange story. He's not at all a pass rusher, but the guy has been a really good run defender as a 2-gap DE, which I'd really not have imagined. The guy has gotten really good at engaging, moving his blocker, and making a tackle. I'm wondering if he isn't one of those guys who wasn't born a Nose Tackle, but will end up gaining a bunch of weigh and being a really good one at some point.

 

Kinda feel bad he was stuck in a 3-4 for this long.

 

Now drafting a future replacement is fine by me. But don't you think that the defensive line could use an impact DE before anything. That is of course if Starks can be resigned?

 

Odrick does not have to be traded but I wouldn't trade Solai at all.

 

It's pretty hard to gauge a DTs worth based on play outcome. If Soliai eats a double team and Dansby makes a tackle of a 2 yd gain, or if he blows up the center and forces the ball outside to Burnett or Misi, how is that grades?

I actually talked to the guy who's over the ratings system. He told me they have volunteers to watch film, grade players, and send on their findings. So it's not one person doing it w one set of criteria. It's dozens of people, with varying levels of competence doing it.

I'm not defending Soliai or attacking the ratings. It's a lot better than watching highlights. But I think their ratings are best used as a data point, like sacks or TFLs, not as a tool for judging how well a guy is playing.

 

The defensive line has to have an impact player opposite of Wake. If they can get one the defensive backs will have a much easier time. If the coaches think they have one on the roster they better keep developing because the sacks were down a lot last season. Wake needs it as well.

 

IIRC Vontae was a 25 and Odrick was a 29. But I agree, no one is giving up a 2nd for him. And it's not fair to say we got a 2nd for Vontae. We got a 2nd in the next years draft, the equivalent of a 3rd.

You make a good point about Odrick and not taking a DE in the 1st. IMO it'd basically be a demotion for Odrick or a sign that we don't intend to bring Starks back. The 3rd possibility is we plan to use the guy situationally, which I don't think is out if the question at all. Remember, between us and a division title stands Tom Brady. We need all the pass rushers we can get

 

What are Starks' and McDaniel's contracts?

I may like Odrick more than most here. I think he has talent. He is just out of position; drafted for another scheme.

 

I don't agree with the original premise of this thread, having Soliai doesn't mean we won't take a DE with our first rounder, makes no sense. If there is a difference maker available in the first we would consider him. I don't know if DE is our most pressing need so maybe it won't happen but it won't be because of Soliai.