1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Hartline wants 5-6 million per season

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Perfectville_USA, Jan 26, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. shouright

    shouright Banned

    22,845
    8,861
    0
    Dec 13, 2007
    Right. That's been done elsewhere throughout the thread.

    But it sounds like you sure did read that post thoroughly though, eh? ;)
     
  2. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

    1,160
    432
    83
    Dec 2, 2012
    M.I.A
    So to restate the conclusion that some have come to:
    1000 yard season- all Hartline. No credit of any kind for Tannehill.
    1 td- all Tannehill's fault. No fault to Hartline.
    Did I sum it up right?
     
    Phins28 and GMJohnson like this.
  3. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    I don't see a mass delusion that Tannehill is "all that" so far. He played well for a rookie, but he definitely needs to improve. I think that it's far more reasonable to think that he played ok, Hartline played ok, and both Tannehill and the WR crew need to improve.

    Hartline is a decent #2 WR and should be paid as such imo. I don't see him as being dumped on to make Tannehill look better, it's more that he's a competent WR but far from a spectacular one, jmo. Six mil seems awfully high to pay a WR of his moderate talent, money better spent in FA on a #1 WR, if possible.
     
  4. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    Ok let's throw out last year bc Hartlines production was hindered by his QB. How many people thought BH was worthy of a big time contract prior to this year.


    Dont everybody speak up at once.
     
  5. shouright

    shouright Banned

    22,845
    8,861
    0
    Dec 13, 2007
    I'd say you summed up the straw man version quite well. Good job. :up:
     
  6. shouright

    shouright Banned

    22,845
    8,861
    0
    Dec 13, 2007
    The reality of the situation, IMO, is that, in terms of their individual statistics, Tannehill played below average, as rookie QBs tend to, and Hartline played well above average.

    Personally I think Hartline's future is as an above-average possession receiver on some team. My interpretation of the word "decent" is an understatment with regard to his performance, especially with a rookie QB.
     
  7. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,632
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    This is still a circular argument. You've got to walk in with the idea that Hartline isn't very good for anything else to be acceptable, when if that's true it should be demonstrable on his own merits. Hartline produced like a starting wide receiver(besides touchdowns) in a context befitting of an starting wide receiver. The idea that he was only a starting receiver because of X, Y, or Z doesn't stick because he in practice performed like a starting wide receiver, and there's no evidence of some sort of illusory effect otherwise.

    Yes, I think Hartline is worth 6 million. It is within the context of the market of what other wide receivers have gotten under more dubious productive.
     
  8. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    I hope someone will make the argument that you are picking apart so that you can gush about how you're more clever than an actual person and not some straw man you've imagined to create in your head.
     
  9. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

    1,160
    432
    83
    Dec 2, 2012
    M.I.A
    It's has what been said.
     
  10. shouright

    shouright Banned

    22,845
    8,861
    0
    Dec 13, 2007
    Ask Packers fans what they thought Jordy Nelson deserved after his third year. Through those first three years, he averaged 33 catches, 423 yards, and 2 TDs a year. In fact he had exactly two TDs in each of his first three years.

    This is why the concept of "breakout year" exists. The next year Nelson had 68 catches for 1,263 yards and 15 TDs.
     
  11. shouright

    shouright Banned

    22,845
    8,861
    0
    Dec 13, 2007
    Like I said, JMO. :)
     
  12. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,632
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    You'll have to take me at my word because I'm sure as hell not going to go look it up, but I had Hartline pegged as having a pretty good chance of being the guy he's turned into since his late run after Brandon Marshall was injured in 2010.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Is this your attempt at a deflection? Does it bother you that 5 people thanked me for saying what everyone is thinking?
     
  14. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    I respect your view but c'mon man, except for TDs? That's not only the most important stat but it also omits the numerous evaluation points that don't show up in stats, overall impact on the game being most important.

    **** the numbers for a sec, What does He do to make us more likely to win games? He doesn't score we know that much. Does he create space for others thru route running or blocking, play special teams, make big plays, what does he do? I honestly don't see it, not 6 million dollars worth of it anyway.
     
  15. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    So fine, pay him #2 WR money, which is above average for an NFL WR I would think- I could agree with Hartline being an above average possession receiver. But imo he's not a true #1 or even close, one who should command a bunch of money. I think that Hartline should be thrilled with 3-4 million per year. It's not a matter of dumping on him, just the reality that if he were a better and more dangerous WR we wouldn't have a crying need for one of those right now.
     
    shula_guy likes this.
  16. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    Ok word taken. But I didn't see a jump in a ability this year, I saw a jump in opportunities, ditto for Reggie Bush. We got more of the same from those guys, more numbers bc they were our best options but they didn't really do anything they hasn't done before.
     
  17. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    I'd rather give 8 million to Bowe or Wallace and draft a WR or 2 and add that to Bess, Binns, Matthews etc than pay BH 5 or 6 million. If we pay him what he wants we basically price ourselves out of signing a true number 1 type ands were stuck hoping some rook can come I. And solve the WR problem we had this year. No thanks.
     
  18. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,632
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    It's not at all an important stat.

    It is not important that a wide receiver produce touchdowns. It's important an offense does. The Dolphins offense did a good job scoring touchdowns in the red zone last year. If Hartline is an awful red zone threat, it's not really that big of a deal. Find someone else to do it. They don't have to be expensive, or good at anything else. You can get a guy whose broke down like Plaxico Burress to do it.

    Alternately, you can find guys who are quite good but don't produce much in the way of touchdowns, or some years produce very little.

    He advances the ball, and runs bread and butter routes extremely well in the offense. It's the fundamental stuff.
     
    shouright likes this.
  19. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,632
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    No, I think it's funny, and it's even funnier that you're complaining about me deflecting from the topic at hand.
     
    Anonymous and shouright like this.
  20. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,632
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    That's fine, but it's not inherently a negative. If more opportunities results in more production and not a loss of efficiency, then it's a sign he should have had those opportunities in the past.
     
    shouright likes this.
  21. The only increase that increased targets has led to is more total yards. He has performed consistently average in passes caught that were thrown his way and his YAC is about 3yrds per catch which is slightly below average. His TD totals are almost nonexsistent. I would like to know how many 1st downs he made with YAC.

    In his defense I will say that considering that he missed most of TC, had to learn a new offense, and perform in the role of the #1 wr, I think he did very well. I do not think this was some great break out year for him but I do think he has proved himself to be a very reliable set of hands that RT can count on. I would like to see him resigned at a reasonable price. $4 million seems like a fair price IMO.
     
  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    For all you people blaming Hartline's lack of scoring on Tannehill, is there a WR you'd take over Hartline and why?
     
  23. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    You'll have to explain cuz I see a limited number of ways that BH gets open, he does next to nothing after the catch or while we'll covered, doesn't block worth a **** either. Bread and butter? More like skin and bones.
     
  24. FWIW I looked at how many catches he had compared to how many targets he had and his completion rate was 59%. I then did the same for the top 40 wrs this year and the average was 58%.
     
  25. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    I hate to sound like I'm bashing BH bc our woes go way past him. But if we're gonna be a high octane offense we gotta improve at WR and I don't see how that happens if we give him the contract he wants. I'd love to have him for depth as a 3 or 4 but I doubt he settles for that role or the contract that comes with it. Kinda the sane deal w Fasano. Love to have him as a #2 but I doubt he signs for #2 money and if we give him #1 type money then we can't afford to sign an upgrade.
     
    Ozzy likes this.
  26. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    Good point. My issue would be that BH doesn't catch balls when he's well covered, he's rarely even targeted when covered bc he doesn't make plays on 50-50 type passes. Number 2 is he's not doubled or bracketed much if ever so theoretically he should be open that much more. Lastly, when he is open and does get the ball he's not much if a threat to do anything with it. He can get whatever is available but goes down at the first contact if not sooner. I'd rather have a guy who only catches 54% but turns a few of those into big plays or Stretches the defense on bombs that lower his comp %.
     

  27. I agree with your point there too. I also look at how many receptions he had and how many yards after the catch he had and he averages about 3yrds per catch. I looked at 20 or so of the top receivers and they average anywhere from 3-7 YAC per reception. I did not average them out but it seemed like the other WRs were mostly in the 5-6 yrd range.
     
  28. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The Dolphins offense was 27th in scoring in 2012. You may be satisfied but Jeff and I are not. If you don't think having more talent at WR would help this offense produce more points, then WADR, I think you are insane.
     
  29. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,632
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    If he's productive and the means of production are sustainable and beneficial, I don't think any of that matters. It doesn't matter how the production comes.
     
  30. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    13,969
    3,367
    113
    Jul 5, 2009
    He said in the red zone. And he's correct. We were 11th in the NFL in RZ offense.
     
  31. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,632
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Once it was in the red zone, it was quite effective. The problem was moving the ball between the 20's, and that's pretty much the opposite of what Brian Hartline's perceived problem is.
     
    shouright and Stringer Bell like this.
  32. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    13,969
    3,367
    113
    Jul 5, 2009
    The blame is shared between Tannehill and Hartline. The problem is no one wants to blame Tannehill because he's a rookie QB.

    There are about 35 receivers I would take over Hartline.
     
    unluckyluciano likes this.
  33. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,632
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Yet somehow, he's productive when he has the full scrutiny of a defense.
     
  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Hartline's problem is scoring. Its been a problem his whole pro career.
     
  35. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

    42,442
    24,982
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    ... and making plays with the ball in his hands.
     
    shula_guy likes this.
  36. I completely agree that RT was part of the problem too. I think the rookie gets more leeway in we only have this season to evaluate him from and by all accounts he has at minium lived up to expectations by most and exceeded some peoples expectations. I fully agree though that he did not do enough to be comfortable as our starter yet.
     
    Anonymous likes this.
  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    That is completely untrue. EVERYONE has said Tannehill can play better. Its the Shou Crew that claim Tanny is to blame for Hartline and there'd be no difference if Tanny had Atlanta's or even NO's skill positions.
     
    MrClean likes this.
  38. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,632
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Yes, that's what I'm acknowledging. Brian Hartline isn't productive in the red zone, but the Dolphins offense is... So what does it matter?
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Ok, by why are you limiting the scoring problem to just the redzone? 1 TD a year tells me he has problems scoring from anywhere on the field. Many other #1's don't have the problem.
     
    MrClean likes this.
  40. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    13,969
    3,367
    113
    Jul 5, 2009
    I haven't seen that.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page