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Hartline wants 5-6 million per season

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Perfectville_USA, Jan 26, 2013.

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  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Then WADR, you haven't paid attention. Its the precise reason this argument continues.
     
  2. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What's the normal number of non-red zone touchdowns for someone to score in a year?
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    If its more than zero than Hartline is deficient.
     
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  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I have paid attention. I've seen arguments from both sides. I haven't seen argument in the middle that blames both Hartline and Tannehill.
     
  5. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Then no you haven't paid attention. I've said it in every thread this argument happens in.
     
  6. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Whats your definition of productive and what's your definition of full attention?
     
  7. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I agree but the point of the thread is whether he should be paid 5-6 million or not. I don't think we can pay him that much wo hurting our ability to improve the team overall.
     
  8. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Producing above average for a starting wide receiver, and in a position where he is the primary threat in the passing game.

    I don't think that's at all out of order for guys like Hartline just based on what he's produced and the contracts signed recently. I'm not entirely sure what your alternatives are, either.
     
  9. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ok then.
     
  10. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box


    I really don't think having a Brian Hartline is a problem. Having him highly paid, and as a number one or two could be. He is a player I'd love to have on my team but I would love him to be the 3rd and 4th option at Wr.
     
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  11. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    A contract similar to Bess would be worth it. Too much more than that and I want someone better.
     
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  12. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    I don't think it belongs in the middle but yes, RT is not perfect. For a Rookie, I think he did well and has to get better.
     
  13. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Because it might be nice to have better balance in the red zone? To improve on the already decent red zone offense maybe?
     
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  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Is this enough, or do I need to keep going?
     
  15. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think that is really all that realistic though. Do you know of any teams with a #3 wide receiver that has had a year similar to Hartline's this year that hadn't first fallen way off?

    It's an admirable goal, but something that should have very little impact on the decision to keep Hartline or not. You can pretty easily do that with him.
     
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  16. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Actually Aqua's thread did that most directly, in showing that Tannehill's QB rating would've improved by a mere three points.
     
  17. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Where did you find that stat? Is that 11th in total trips to the red zone, or 11th in pct of the times TDs were scored once in the red zone, or total # of TDs scored from inside the red zone? I'd find it hard to believe we could be 27th in scoring but 11th in number of TDs scored from inside the red zone. If that is true, then apparently we are not scoring often from outside the red zone, which would again speak to needing more talent at WR.
     
  18. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    We were 11th in TD% in thr RZ. I think total scoring is mainly due to having a low number of possessions, mainly because of a bad turnover differential.
     
  19. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    What you haven't seen much (or any) of, from anyone who purports to place at least some of the blame on Tannehill, is some estimation of what Hartline would've done in 2012 or will do in the future with better quarterback play.

    Blaming Tannehill for at least some of the issue while simultaneously believing, implicitly or otherwise, that Hartline is "maxed out" in his play is an inconsistency.
     
  20. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Is that premise substantiated, or is it your perception? My perception is too many drives that are 3 and out, or just 1 first down, before having the punt the ball back.

    I wonder if this same mysterious link that shows us 11th in pct of TDs scored compared to trips in the red zone would show where Miami falls in total number of trips into the red zone? Having better WRs makes the overall offense better and should make for more total trips into the red zone, as well as scoring from outside the red zone.
     
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  21. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I'd genuinely like to know what our TD% rank is from outside the RZ. I can't imagine it's very good.
     
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  22. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Sounds like you're both ready to attribute that, if it exists, to the developmental rookie QB nil.
     
  23. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You completely missed my point and just repeated yourself. I said, the percentage of TD's caught by receivers doesn't correlate with winning. FINE. The percentage of TD's caught by your offense correlates highly I'm positive.

    So who cares who it comes from. WR, TE, or RB. I don't care. If a WR catches a lot, that relieves the other players from having to catch TD's as well. So a WR who catches a lot of TDs is better than one that doesn't. I'm not saying adding a WR who catches a lot of TDs is going to make you win. But it'll help.

    You can't sit there and tell me TDs caught by WR's mean nothing, which is what you said earlier. There are certain WR's that just kill in the end zone. Throwing corner fades to Hartline isn't the same as one thrown to Reggie Wayne etc.

    A Marques Colston who catches 1,000 yards but scores 8-9 TDs a year is better than Hartline. Tell me it's not THAT important, and maybe I agree with you. Tell me it makes absolutely no difference and I'm calling bullshards.
     
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  24. I'd say you summed up the straw man version quite well. Good job. :up:
     
  25. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Wrong!!! Tannehill shoulders some of the blame, but if he had been given more talent to work with at WR, offensive production inside and outside the red zone would have been better.
     
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  26. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Only so long you can hold onto the "rookie QB" scapegoat argument until you need to find a different excuse.
     
  27. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    But in a passing league, it is very realistic and should be. Having a better option than Hartline means he does not get the production so his stats would have to fall off. To me, he is not worth 6 million a year. Even 5 is stretching it too much. Yes, it may be unrealistic to get him at a rate much lower but when we're talking about spending 6 million on a Wr, I'd rather have someone better. Hell, Hartline might even be worth 6 million but if that's the case, I'd spend a little more to get a better option if I had to. Then draft someone who can easily take his place.

    As for improving in the red zone with Hartline, what makes you think it can be done so easily? He's never shown he can do it no matter what the Qb.
     
  28. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    While they're further developing that Qb, maybe they can have Hartline practice the art of not falling down when someone simply blows a breath of hot air on him?

    Then it will get better all around....
     
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  29. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    0.55

    As strongly as you'd thought?

    You know what happens to that correlation when you hold number of TDs thrown to wide receivers constant? It drops to 0.38.

    Now, get this. You know what the correlation is between win percentage and number of TDs thrown to wide receivers? 0.43.

    You know what happens to that correlation when you control for QB rating, of which TD passes is a component? It drops to -0.16.
     
  30. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Why thank you! I'm good at lots of things. :)

    And I see you're still reading intently, and now even memorizing! :lol: ;)
     
  31. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Right, and that'll be about the time the rookie quarterback isn't playing like a typical one.
     
  32. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    OK so we've seen a few plays where RT missed Hartline for what might have been a TD. So his numbers would have went up if he caught a better thrown pass.

    Now I wonder how many MORE chances RT might have had with a reliable Wr, such as Hartline, with much better top end speed? Would he have been able to catch those overthrows as well? Would he have created even more oportunities to up the percentages too?
     
  33. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Neither had Jordy Nelson through his first three years, and that was with Aaron Rodgers.

    I certainly don't think it's a guarantee that Hartline's TD production will increase significantly in the future, but it's definitely a possibility with better QB play IMO.
     
  34. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That doesn't really prove anything.

    Do you have a post where you stated that Tannehill specifically at times held the offense back from scoring? Not because of his supporting cast, but due to his own bad play?

    I haven't seem anyone say that. What I have seen is people state Tannehill is a rookie so he struggled. Then it is always followed up by how he would have done much better with any receivers other than Hartline and Bess.
     
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  35. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct
     
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  36. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    It's not his fault. They need to mow the grass shorter at the stadium. :shifty:
     
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  37. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    You mean he doesn't just need a degree from the University of Your Eyes? :headscratch: ;)
     
  38. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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  39. shouright

    shouright Banned

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  40. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Also Mr. Clean, if you go to the link I posted it shows we ranked 5th from last in RZ scoring attempts per game. That's mostly due to the offense not being able to drive down the field rather than the TOs, IMO.
     
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