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Hartline wants 5-6 million per season

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Perfectville_USA, Jan 26, 2013.

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  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That Rodgers is better than a rookie AND he has a VASTLY more dynamic receiving core. MOD EDIT.
     
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  2. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    That's your reason? LOL. So, if Hartline caught the same passes from Rodgers, he'd have just magically found his way into the end zone more easily and more often? Let's say Green Bay had Miami's receiving corps in 2012. No Cobb, Jones, Nelson, Jennings, Finley, et al, Rodgers would have still thrown 39 TD passes?
     
  3. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Going from a TD every 35 receptions to a TD every 74 receptions is indeed statistically significant, as is going from a TD every 60 some-odd targets to a TD every 128 targets.

    I'd suggest we agree to disagree, however. It's clear our minds are made up and are not changing. :)
     
  4. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    DC
    This post is still the one to beat.
     
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  5. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    It certainly is, because there is far more objective evidence for the concept of TD passing ability than there is for the concept of TD receiving ability.

    But of course you're free to take all the information at your disposal and construe it however you wish. :)
     
  6. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    That post was "beaten," soundly.
     
  7. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    In the spirit of parsimony and Occam's razor both explanations seem pretty obvious. Rodgers is a great QB and his WR crew is clearly vastly superior to that of the Dolphins. In the absence of Rodgers and Hartline switching WR crews you'd have to watch them play and be the judge of that- uh oh, not a strong suit of yours, never mind.

    Please try to remove your need for Brian Hartline to become a star from the equation in your thinking, if you would.

    If I wanted to make a statement that approaches the dubiousness of some of yours, maybe I can argue that Rodgers isn't any better than Tannehill, he just has better receivers. Then I can just say prove me wrong and stick my tongue out. Nah, why sink to that level?
     
  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Its pretty silly trying to compare different QB's numbers. The only way to really compare would be to have the QB's switch teams, and see what happened. Everything else is an exercise in futility. We can guess all day long, but at the end of the day, it's still just a guess. Some want to use stats for their guess, others want to look at receiving corps for their guess.
     
  9. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    You must be joking, he destroyed you.
     
  10. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    DC
    You insist that it is, but your insistence doesn't make it true.
     
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  11. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    How do people claiming there are 90+ WRs in the NFL explain him being voted a Pro Bowl alternate? Its obvious the fans didn't give him any votes. Was it the coaches????
     
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  12. dbergan

    dbergan Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Man...what a looonnng drawn out thread to debate something that seems pretty basic to me.

    1. BH is a very good clutch receiver that OWNS the sideline catch. Dude makes some serious highlight reel catches and he and RT have that play going...but not a whole lot else.

    2. BH has been open running down the sideline and either not had the pass sent or had it sent off target. Most of the time it looks like RT has to get it off fast due to pressure..regardless I think he could have a few more TD's if he had Brady delivering the ball (JMHO).

    3. BH is known...and dependable. We need to sign him at a reasonable rate (market dictates this) and get more weapons. The issue here seems to be what is a reasonable rate. I say let him test the market and then we can ALL learn...because the NFL is changing and the floor may be higher then we think...

    4. Shour likes to make everyone think and creates debate...(understatement). This is good!
     
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  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That's not what happened.

    1 TD every 35 receptions means he was only 4 receptions over his norm for this year. He should have had another TD by his 70th catch.
     
  14. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    I'd say it's about time to end this, folks, don't you think? If there was ever anything I've learned from posting on these boards about thirty-five thousand times for about nine years, it's that nobody with a truly objective, impartial point of view is going to come along and declare anybody the "winner," and certainly nobody who is invested enough in the topic to still be posting about it this far in is going to admit "defeat," either. :)
     
  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    How does someone who puts so much emphasis on the objectivity of stats, try to prove a point with the subjectivity of the Pro Bowl?
     
  16. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    And what exactly is "true," here?

    This is all opinion folks. Whatever you believed going in is probably what you still believe.
     
  17. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    So, if Hartline caught the same passes from Rodgers, he'd have just magically found his way into the end zone more easily and more often? Let's say Green Bay had Miami's receiving corps in 2012. No Cobb, Jones, Nelson, Jennings, Finley, et al, Rodgers would have still thrown 39 TD passes?
     
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  18. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    I don't think anything having to do with the Pro Bowl is indicative of anything. I like Hartline. I don't have an issue with him being paid 5 mil a year (more is a different story). I think he has a role, and he's pretty good at that role. I also know that he's limited in certain ways, and there's nothing wrong with that, so long as the coaches put him in spots to do what he's good at.
     
  19. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    It certainly has to be indicative of something. The names aren't picked out of a hat. In many cases, its indicative of a player's overall career. In many cases its indicative of popularity. In this case its indicative of....?
     
  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yep. I think the issue is that most of us believe that Hartline is a decent receiver, but he's not a number one receiver. Hartline isnt a game changer. We need a game changing wide receiver. No one is saying that Hartline is terrible and shouldn't be in the league. Shou is almost arguing against something that no one is claiming.
     
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  21. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Is there really any way to make a definitive conclusion about those hypothetical scenarios? You're going to believe one thing about them, and other people are going to believe other things.

    What, am I supposed to say "yes, all that would've happened," even though I'm just a regular everyday person who doesn't have that kind of ability, just like you? :confused1:
     
  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Maybe it was indicative of him playing after no offseason. Maybe his agent did a lot of schmoozing. Regardless, it proves nothing.
     
  23. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Well at least I'm only "almost" doing that. :lol: :up:
     
  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Here are some notable WRs that had sub-3% TD/target just int his past season:

    Calvin Johnson
    Andre Johnson
    DeSean Jackson
    Dwayne Bowe
    Larry Fitzgerald

    The question I have is what exactly the TD/target ratio actually tells us? Is Santana Moss an elite WR??? Are the aforementioned WRs not very good?
     
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  25. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    No, it definitely proves something.
     
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  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Nothing relevant to this discussion.
     
  27. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The opinion of a player's peers, including coaches, is not relevant when discussing what his value is as an unrestricted FA??? I certainly would hope Joe Philbin would at least have some voice in the process of evaluating free agents. Does anyone believe that not to be the case?
     
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  28. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    This ball should be caught. BTW, it's the 1st drive of the 1st game I've went back and re-watched this offseason. So more videos of both parties (QB and WR) failing to execute to follow.

    [video=youtube;UJMLBqPWAZo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMLBqPWAZo[/video]
     
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  29. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    You do a good job of highlighting some of the things Hartline does well, but he also does somethings poorly. He has some short comings (size and ability to get quick separation) that limit his effectiveness in the redzone and he's not very good at RAC. Those are WR specific issues that will limit his TD production regardless of the QB. The problem with the arguments in this and many of the threads is that people on both sides are trying to make it all or nothing. It's ridiculous to argue that WR skill doesn't impact a QB's TD production. There are clearly some WR skills that help produce TDs for the QB. It's also ridiculous to argue that Hartline is trash based his TD production alone. It's clear there things he does well that are valuable to a team. Posting a sincere question does make people think. But repeating the same one-sided and erroneous arguments in multiple threads does not make people think. All it does is cause annoyance and acrimony.
     
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  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No, no. It PROVES nothing relevant to this conversation.
     
  31. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    How are you suggesting Hartline got those votes??? Who, in actual practice, voted for Brian Hartline?
     
  32. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Sorry to confuse you. I was merely asking for your opinion. IMO, Tannehill is not totally blameless for the lack of TD passes, but he ain't going anywhere for at least another season. We are not going to upgrade the QB position in 2013 other than whatever improvement Tannehill makes. For him to maximize whatever potential he has and production he's capable of, it just makes sense to upgrade the receiving corps. Then, if he still isn't throwing more TD passes or the offense is not racking up more total yards or scoring more points in general, whatever yardstick one wants to use, we can start to question Tannehill.
     
  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I don't know, do you? Again, I asked how someone who thinks stats prove everything, can take something so subjective like the Pro Bowl has proof of anything being discussed ion this thread.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's actually a really good point. I acknowledged Anonymous for bringing up a good point, but uab_phin brought up a good point in retort.

    Et tu, Anonymous?
     
  35. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    I think that you have to admit that there's some relevancy there. I was surprised to hear that Hartline made the Pro Bowl- 1060 or so yards and 1 TD? hardly stunning. But he did make it, can't take that away from him. He's still just a #2, though.
     
  36. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Yes, we do know who votes for Pro Bowlers. Coaches, players, or fans. Certainly the overwhelming majority of fans believe Brian Hartline isn't among the top-64 WRs, so you're really left with the coaches or players believing Hartline to be worthy of a Pro Bowl vote to some degree. That is an important consideration when discussing someone's value on the free market.

    In regards to stats proving everything, nobody has suggested that. Almost everyone is in agreement of what skills Brian Hartline possesses and does not posses. The crux of the disagreement is here is quantifying Hartline's ability.
     
  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Why is that obvious? Dolphins fans have always had a very strong online presence when it comes to voting in polls and online. One of the strongest online presences of any fan base in the NFL, probably top 5.
     
  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I'm not saying its not relevant, I'm saying it doesn't prove anything relevant. If it does prove something relevant, then what does it prove about Pouncey? Or Jones? Or even Fields?
     
  39. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    I thought it was players and coaches who voted. Hmm...
     
  40. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Have you ever heard a Dolphins fan suggest Brian Hartline be pro bowl worthy???? I would be shocked if more than 1% of posters here believe he's among the top-32 WRs in the NFL.
     
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