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Hartline wants 5-6 million per season

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Perfectville_USA, Jan 26, 2013.

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  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LOL!

    He's the one who compared their career totals, not me. He changed it to career totals, not me. Remember, you quoted him.

    If it stay first 3 seasons for each, the total is 9 to 6. Again, big deal? One can get 7 million a season but the other absolutely cannot make 5 because of touchdown total?

    Edit: Now I see the mistake. He didn't say career totals, which I originally thought he said.

    Regardless, point stands.
     
  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Perhaps it is. But then I can come back and say that Antonio Brown also had to contend with the presence of Mike Wallace, Hines Ward, Heath Miller and a ground game that was dangerous (RBs combined for 386 carries, 1728 yards and 13 TDs)...whereas Brian Hartline had to contend with Davone Bess (the equivalent of Hines Ward in 2011), Anthony Fasano (AT BEST an equivalent to Heath Miller, but probably not even that) and an inconsistent Reggie Bush. Hartline should've had a lot more opportunities than Antonio Brown.
     
  3. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But he didn't. Brown had 123 passes thrown to him and Hartline had 128.
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    He didn't change anything. You talked about Antonio Brown's first 3 years...which constitutes his entire career. So how does adding in his return touchdowns suddenly change it from "first 3 years" to "career" when those two were one and the same to begin with?

    I think you're reaching.

    Another good point though bringing up Hartline's rushing touchdown. So the comparison goes from 7-to-5, to 9-to-6. The touchdown disparity widens a little bit.

    Now also consider that through his first 3 years, Brian Hartline had 109 catches for 1670 yards, with 7 runs for 65 yards, plus 3 kickoff returns for 36 yards...whereas Antonio Brown has collected 151 catches for 2062 yard, 14 runs for 65 yards, 38 punt returns for 618 yards and 44 kickoff returns for 1134 yards. That's quite a disparity in production.
     
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  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    And how good did he have to be to get those 123 passes thrown his way? How often did he have to be open to get that kind of production when there are so many other attractive options on the field?
     
  6. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I said I read it wrong.

    The disparity is clear. Hence, Brown is at 7 a season where Hartline should be at 5.
     
  7. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He was productive when those passes were thrown his way. That's all that matters. You may choose to obsessed with the names if you want.
     
  8. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    That drop is obviously all Tannehill's fault. He put his special patented Tannehill spin on the ball, making it nearly impossible for a mere mortal WR such as Hartline to catch it.
     
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  9. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    How much time do coaches and players spend leisurely watching other games when it doesn't involve preparing for them the upcoming week? I can't imagine it's much.
     
  10. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You'd have a more compelling argument if it was just left at the idea Hartline didn't produce touchdowns. It's far more damning if he didn't get open than him inexplicably dropping them, given he neither has a problem with drops or with harder catches.
     
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  11. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I stand corrected on MM and I think a deal like his is fair value for BH.
     
  12. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Marlon Moore?















    :shifty:
     
  13. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Sure, you could chalk it up to coincidence.

    But, I see no reason to rule out the possibility that Hartline has a harder time catching passes with higher velocity coming from a shorter distance (a large bulk of red zone passes come in this variety via tight windows)
     
  14. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Ok. Moore looks better bc he plays with Brees, fair point. But if Hartline played for NO he'd be the 3rd WR, at best. How many pro bowl votes would he be getting then?
     
  15. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I remember that discussion well. You basically have to put the ball right on him for him to catch it on a deep ball. He's running full speed just to get initial separation so there's no extra gear to go to and it's very difficult for him to stop his momentum and come back for the ball.
     
  16. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He would be their 2nd receiver, after Colston.

    From me alone, he would have enough to be an alternate. Add in Shouright and he's a starter.
     
  17. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    If you want a better comparison use BH and Charlie Brown. He's not even in the same zip code as Antonio.

    Mike Wallace, the WR fin fans are salivating over? The Steelers chose not to pay him but gave Antonio Brown a big time extension. That should tell you all i need to know. Can't blame that on Big Ben...
     
  18. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Hear that sound? It's Devery Henderson, laughing hysterically.
     
  19. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hear that sound? It's me, laughing hysterically at you.
     
  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Disagree with that. He's very good with high sideline passes where he has to use body control to get the ball in while getting both feet down. He has a little more trouble with low catches, and he's not very good at all at hauling in challenged or 50/50 balls. You've seen two videos above that were challenging catches that Hartline couldn't haul in.

    And even taking that aside, his drop percentages in most years have not been great.
     
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  21. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Save the numbers. If any of those guys saw the coverages that BH received they'd have a million yards and 126 TDs. Apiece.
     
  22. Do you have any objective stastical data to back up your bias opinion the BH is a mere mortal?
     
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  23. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Really? Just the end zone? What about WRs using speed and moves to turn receptions into touchdowns? Something that maybe we could call a "special talent". Here's Percy Harvin showing some "special talent":

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekle5KSlzUo

    Could we call that a "special talent"? Or conversely, can all WRs pretty much do that? Was the pass by Christian Ponder so good that it was the deciding factor in that play turning into a TD? Could pretty much any WR have converted that pass into a TD? Maybe you should look more than just passes in the end zone, because the really good WRs can make touchdowns out of basic receptions now and again, you know, make plays. It's a good part of why they're called play makers.

    ps to the poster who mentioned Eric Decker- he had the same rec yardage and 13 TDs to Hartline's 1 TD and Hartline was named the Pro Bowl alternate, not Decker? Ludicrous, Decker got robbed.
     
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  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No, I don't expect it actually. That's the problem.
     
  25. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The whole "drops" issue really just depends on what your standards are.

    There are 56 wide receivers that caught 150+ passes from 2009 to 2012, including Brian Hartline. Brian Hartline's drop percentage (drops/drops+catches) ranks him #39 of 56 in that group.

    So I think it is perfectly valid to bring up instances of him dropping a catchable ball in the end zone as more evidence of why he's not scoring touchdowns. He may not quite be Donald Driver, Mike Williams (TB), Victor Cruz, Brandon Gibson or James Jones (the top 5 drop percentages over the period)...but he's still lower tier amongst players that played a lot during the period.
     
  26. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

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    I agree watching the game and actually seeing what happens is overrated.
     
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  27. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    Yes he is but that's not my point. Explain how Cecil Shorts can score TD's with Henne but Hartline couldn't. Both are 4th round players. The QB excuse won't work here.
     
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  28. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but certainly you're aware that all of the statistics are based on "what happens" as well.
     
  29. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    TDs are a function of a lot of different things.
     
  30. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    My subjective impression is that Tannehill often throws those passes far too hard. I'm not saying that explains all of Hartline's drops in the end zone, or even any of them, but I certainly have had that perception while watching games.

    I don't have any objective data on it, but it's quite possible that Tannehill's large number of drops in college happened for the same reason. I'd be interested to see how the Dolphins' receiving corps fared with regard to drops with Tannehill compared to previously in their NFL careers.
     
  31. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How does it not work? Marshall scored 3 here with Henne and 11 with Cutler. It definitely works.

    I don't know how Shorts scores 7 touchdowns this season with Henne.
     
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Apparently not WR skill. They are completely irrelevant to the equation, I'm told.
     
  33. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Who said completely irrelevant???
     
  34. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Of the top 49 WRs by yardage, he's only one of two WR's with 1 TDs.

    The other being Davone Bess of course :D
     
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  35. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    don't forget the post route [0:34 mark, clip below] earlier in that game where Hartline played the ball as if no one was near him and waited for the pass to come to him as his route drifted in the endzone giving Haden a chance to break it up. It was Haden who looked like the receiver on the play, as he was the one attacking the ball and fighting for its possession while Hartline took his typical passive approach. If he comes back to the ball it's 1st & goal on the 1. Instead, the drive resulted in 0 points.

    The Haden INT is at the 0:12 mark and in slow motion at 0:20.
    At 0:20 you see Hart is already looking back at the play while Haden is not.
    When pieced together, you see Brian drifts roughly 9-10 yards downfield despite the pass already being approximately 22 yards in the air (it leaves Henne's hand at the 18 and crosses the 40 when Brian finally recognizes the under throw). It's not until the ball is approximately 10-12 yards from Brian that he begins his "effort" for it. That's inexcusable. That should've at least been a first down at the spot of the foul if he possesses better tracking ability and wasn't so passive & lazy playing the ball. If Hartline could play a ball in the air, or at least wasn't so passive in both attempts, we don't lose that game by a FG.

    [video=youtube;3sRwe99VfmE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sRwe99VfmE[/video]

    Furthermore, if you pause it immediately at 0:13 you see 2 Browns linemen directly in line of the throw, both with their hands up, and one defender is right on top of the Henne. It's one of many times when a QB won't have an open passing lane or clear line of sight of his receiver where the guy on the other end needs to make a play and earn his paycheck.

    Hartline is lucky he's quick off the line, is a good route runner, and can occasionally beat corners with a fake b/c if he had to rely on tracking ability and ball skills he'd fail miserably downfield. Even on vertical throws he's essentially a possession receiver b/c if the pass isn't on the money it's likely an incompletion, and that's simply not good enough when you're dealing with throws that already have an inherently low completion %.
     
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  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Ooopps. I'm sorry.

    Not statistically relevant. My bad.
     
  37. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Umm. Way way way back on page 2 ..

    ;)
     
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  38. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Right, so where did he say the WRs skill is completely irrelevant???
     
  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Right, nobody actually suggested it.
     
  40. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    And here we are on page 17 (for me at least), and no one has controverted my statement that TDs by wide receivers are meaningless with any objective data.

    TDs by wide receivers correlate with win percentage at 0.40. When you control for QB rating, that correlation drops to -0.19.

    Have fun with that. :)
     
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