Hartline wants 5-6 million per season

When did I say otherwise????????

 

What you're doing is unfair.

You implied the Pro Bowl was a way coaches would choose who is better since Hartline got the nod and Nicks didn't. Clean was clearly saying if Hartline was better then the Giants should be willing to make a straight up trade.

You are being purposely obtuse to goad people into arguments and pretending you aren't implying the things you're implying. Shou does it to, but you are a mod and that makes it unfair.

 

His PFF rating blows this year. 2nd worst WR. But he is very fast, and offers a viable deep threat. I would prefer him as the 3rd WR behind Colston and Moore for that reason. It wouldn't be bad to have Hartline as the 3rd WR though in that scenario. He could do for the Saints about the same as Greg Camarillo did.

Your original point however, was that if Hartline were on the Saints, he'd be their #2 behind only Colston. I'd say that is not true. He may get the 3rd highest WR snaps over Henderson though I would not say it's definite. I think Henderson's deep speed (4.36 forty), offers something to the offense that Hartline does not supply.

 

No, it wasn't implying that Hartline was better. They are in two different conferences, with one (NFC) having a lot more talent. I was implying that coaches think Hartline is a lot better than people here think.

And either way, Stringer Bell is not the topic of this thread.

 

What he said. My thoughts EXACTLY!!!

 

You are confusing you making "assumptions" with me implying.

Interesting how you assume you know my purpose. You didn't mention that Nicks received passes from a HOF QB that has thrown 113 TDs passes over the past 4 years while Hartline has played with QBs that have thrown 65 during the same time. And this year Hicks was targeted 17 times in the redzone whereas Hartline was targeted 11 times. Not sure about the previous 3 years but I think it is safe to assume that is lopsided in Nicks favor. Nicks has also been targeted an additional 112 times during his career than Hartline has.

Did you purposefully leave out all of those stats in your posts?

 

This is like pulling teeth.

Think about what you're saying.

If BH and HN have similar stats, and you think HN had a bigger advantage to get to those numbers than you are saying BH is better.

I get that you like to be contrary, but at least be intellectually honest.

 

a) There's no describing how wrong it is trying to parallel Hartline to Hakeem Nicks. Similar YPC & YPA don't make them similarly valuable.
b) I just gave you 7 touchdown examples from Nicks yet you persist with the "if Hartline had a better QB" argument. Please stop. Besides, I think you forget the 4 years before Nicks arrived saw an Eli Manning QBR average of 78.1.
c) Nicks has been injured this year and has essentially played in only 11 games, yet an injured 2012 Nicks caught for more yards & TDs than 3 of Hartline's 4 years.
d) Nicks' YPA was affected by his injury-plagued 2012 season. Nicks is also a greater contributor in the short passing game, which Hartline is NOT; therefore Hartline's YPA/YPC will inherently appear higher, just as StringerBell indirectly testified when saying the screen game isn't in Hartline's repertoire (paraphrasing). I repeat, a higher YPC carries a grain of salt if the player contributes less in the short passing game. For instance, Nick's YPC/YPA are similar to Hartline's despite Nicks catching 52 more passes thrown behind the LOS and up to 10 yards.

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 600"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]catches[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]yards[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]TD[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]20+ yard TDs[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]catches on throws
behind the LOS
and up to 10 yards[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Nicks (55 games)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]255[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3726[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]27[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]154[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Hartline (60 games)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]183[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2753[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]102[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

• That's 72 catches, 1000 yards, and 19 TDs more by Nicks over 4 years (but 5 less games).
• Nicks contributed 52 more receptions in the shorter passing game, hence obviously lowering his YPA. Hartline shouldn't be praised b/c his limited ability in the short passing game allows him to maintain a higher YPA.
• It's like Nicks uses Hartline's stats as his baseline and then adds in an additional 52 completions in the short game (b/c Hakeem is a playmaker whose hands you want the ball in), an additional 20 catches from his outstanding ball skills & tracking ability, and for good measure tosses in 19 extra TDs.

 

And I stick by my original point.

 

Give the guy 3.5-4 million. It's more than Jordy Nelson, but I really think we need to start securing some of our free agents. I really would like to see Reggie, Brian, and Smith resigned. Jake Long if he will actually take 7-8 million a year as well.

 

Then quit pulling. You are engaging in MSU (making s*** up). That is being honest.

All I am saying is that signing BH to $5-$6 million per year is fair and imo wise understanding the context. Everything else is you engaged in msu and projecting it on to me as if it is my opinion.

 

Duh, that's what happens when you're a better receiver, a playmaker, a guy with 27 TDs rather than 6, a guy with better hands than Hartline, better ball skills, better tracking ability, and just overall better trustworthiness once the ball has left the QB's hands than Hartline. How the heck are treating football as if it's not a sport, as if athleticism & talent are meaningless?

 

I am following your stances to their logical conclusion. i am not making anything up. You cannot say the things you are saying if you don't think Hartline is better than Nicks.

But you can clear it up, if they were catching passes from the same QB, who is better?

 

You're original point of if Hartline were on the Saints, he'd be their #2 over Moore? If that is what you are sticking to, everyone is entitled to their opinions.
I honestly do not dislike Hartline, and for continuity sake, would be fine with resigning him for the right price. Whatever that price may be, and I won't pretend to know. Resigning him though hopefully would not prevent us from also signing one of the big 3 UFA WRs, and also addressing the position once or twice very early in the draft. If we do resign him and also sign Jennings, I'd rather go for one of the top 2 TEs in the 1st, because I think they'd add an extra dimension to the offense, and IMO, neither will be available at pick 42.

 

I agree with everything.

See, we CAN get along. Hurrah.

 

A) So you are under the impression that ypc and ypa aren't significant. Okay...we disagree on that. I do "assume" if those stats were lopsided in Nicks favor that would be proof how much better he is than Hartline.

B) So you are saying Nicks made Eli the HOF QB he is? Interesting.

C) From a future HOF QB that threw for 26 TDs this year so apparently he does just fine in that department without Nicks supplying the TD catches.
In the 5 games Nicks didn't essentially play this year Manning was: 103 for 163, 63.19%, 1,214 yards, 7.45 ypa, 12 TD, 2 int...105.20 QB rating
in the 11 games Nicks did play this year Manning did the following: 218 for 373, 58.46%, 2,734 yards, 7.33 ypa, 14 TD, 13 int...79.32 QB rating
*Hardly bodes well for the Manning's not much without Nicks assertion

D) Hence, where I have said Nicks and Hartline are different types of WRs. Nicks catches short passes and uses his speed to make big plays whereas Hartline does his best work without the ball and runs good deep routes.

* Interesting twist how you used Nicks 5 less games to accumulate 72 catches for 973 yards, 19 TDs to make it look like he had less opportunities when, in fact, he has been targeted 112 more times than Hartline and it is safe to say many more times in the redzone.

 

This seems very important to you for some reason. Why on Earth, or whatever planet you are from..., it matters to my only assertion that a $5-$6 million a year contract to resigning Hartline is fair?

 

what's unreal is Adam having to compare Hartline to an injured Hakeem Nicks in order to put a positive spin on Brian's ability, not to mention using cherry picked stats to do so.

Career TDs of 20+ yards
Nicks: 13
Hartline: 1 (from busted coverage)

Total yardage from all TD receptions
Nicks: 609
Hartline: 111 (31 if excluding the 80 yard busted coverage TD)

Percentage of yards that involve a TD
Nicks: 16% (It'd be 22% if Nicks had Hartline's reduced total yards)
Hartline: 4% (1% if excluding the 80 yard busted coverage TD)

TD percentage (per target)
Nicks: 6.2%
Hartline: 1.9%

 

It wasn't me that tried to make a comparison to him to illustrate my point about how much Hartline should get paid...that was you. To understand why you've reached the conclusions you have, I'd like to know who you think the better receiver is. I didn't realize that was like asking you for your pin number.

 

Too funny...in the very post I am being referred to as "cherry picking" you have bold stats that I have never seen before and then added a note in parenthesis to subtract from Hartline while leaving "all" of Nicks big-plays as legit. Apparently, Nicks has never made a big play that involved a busted coverage. I wonder if the defensive coordinators he made those plays against think the same way.

 

He was illustrating how much Hartline's stats were boosted from ONE play. Clearly, Nicks doesn't suffer from the same problem. Which is unnecessary on Phin's part, cause even with the catch Hartline's numbers suck donkey nuts.

 

When did Eli become a HOF QB?

 

Around post 794. The having to retire for 5 years, put up HoF numbers and voted on by a comity is no longer necessary...didn't you here?

 

Sure do disagree with the man with no name...Lance Moore is the better receiver imo, and has been..would trade him strait up no problem...PFF just confirms.

 

I am jumping the gun just a bit. Safe to say he became one 2/5/2012.

 

Nice straw man argument there. If that's the only way you can argue my points then I feel bad for you.

On 86 targets in 2010, Anthony Armstrong boasted a 10.1 YPA, 19.8 YPC, 15 plays of 20+. He must be a future HOFer with those numbers, eh.
Aldrick Robinson averaged 21.5 YPC this year, with 3 TDs and a play of 20+ yards every 4.75 attempts. Washington, pay that man $10 million!!!!

BTW, it's not an "impression". It's basic math. You should try learning it. The more the player contributes in the short passing game the lower it will obviously bring his YPA/YPC. What do you think would happen if Hartline truly were a dynamic receiver and thusly tacked on an additional 25 low-risk catches at 8 yards per catch? Would his YPA drop? Would he be a better or worse receiver with the subsequent lower YPA despite his receptions increasing and his yardage increasing by 200?

Another straw man argument. Surprising. Having great talent at WR certainly didn't hurt Eli's career. You're right, the Giants probably don't know what they're doing when spending a 1st rounder on Nicks when it wouldn't benefit Eli as you surmise.

Perhaps you've heard of this other guy. His name is Victor Cruz. He kinda helps a QB. So does Martellus Bennett. It's a real bummer when the rest of Eli's receivers are a 2nd rounders, two 3rds, and the lowest being a 4th. Meanwhile Tanny's highest is a 4th.

Again, Nicks battled injury ALL YEAR (foot & knee) so you can't just cherry-pick stats.
Hey, how did Eli do in the playoffs this year? That's right, he didn't make it. He went 3-5 over the 2nd half of the year with Nicks hobbled, and Eli mentioned how Nicks being injured hurt their timing and made the passing game less viable this year. Try doing some research first.
What was the trickle down affect with Nicks injured? Coverage was able to shift to Cruz w/o fear of Nicks, dropping Cruz's yards by 450, his YPC by 6 yards, and his number of 20+ yard TDs by 4. Over the last 9 games, 4 times did Eli have a QBR under 60.0, his 4 worst ratings of the season. Comparatively, he had just 1 game at less than 60.0 QBR last year.

That would be wrong. With Nicks injured ALL year, he still has 10 catches on throws over 31 yards for 501 yards and 4 TDs. Even with Hartline's busted coverage 80 yarder he has 8 catches for 388 yards and 1 TD. Nicks does everything Hartline does downfield and more, and on top of that he adds a big element to the short game, so yeah- they are different types of WRs. Nicks is a complete package type while Hartline is..... not.

 

yeah, no s*** Sherlock. Receivers who are better get targeted more. That's how that works. Perhaps if Jerry Rice weren't targeted 2000 times more than Orande Gadsen they'd both put up similar numbers. Maybe if Marlon Moore were targeted as many times as Hartline, he would've had 1349 yards, 11 TDs, and 19.3 YPC. Man did Miami gip that kid!! Gimme a break, man.


PS: I like how you did the math on the yardage difference to make sure it totaled 973 rather than 1000 as if you think those 27 yards helps bridge the gap between Hart & Nicks.

yeah, I'm sure that's the difference between 27 TDs and 6.

 

you mean when he had 2 elite WRs catching passes for him?

 

I think your jumping the gun a lot to even predict that he is going to get in at this point in his career. JMO.

 

Firstly, I didn't need to include the parenthesis for Hartline's TD production for it to look embarrassing compared to Nicks, but it was appropriately accurate.... and enjoyable to rub your nose in it even further.

Secondly, you were the one cherry-picking ONE stat in attempt to make Hartline seem like a better big play threat than Nicks, so I'm entitled to debunk your attempt by expanding even further on your lone, isolated, intentionally misleading stat.

Thirdly, if Nicks had a severely busted coverage TD (which is less likely since he's actually a great receiver, and defensive backs pay attention to great receivers), the longest it could've been for is 31 yards b/c I've already displayed Nick's longest ones and have seen the others. But if it makes your poor wittle Hartline-based ego feel better, you can remove a 31 yard TD...... BUT you have to remove Hartline's 80 yarder. Here, I'll do it for you:

Career TDs of 20+ yards
Nicks: 12
Hartline: 0

Total yardage from all TD receptions
Nicks: 578
Hartline: 31

Percentage of yards that involve a TD
Nicks: 16%
Hartline: 1%

There. Happy?

 

Just checking in to ask...ahem... what in the F U GGGGG are we arguing about here? I dont think I saw anyone in this thread say "pay hartline 5-6 million" from the pages I've read. So honestly...what are we talking about? Let him go to FA. I'll take Bowe or Miller or Jennings for that money, and still offer Hartline a fair market value. Its up to him if he wants...and to any team that pays him that - I say enjoy. He may be good in a system with a speed receiver or a dominant WR...but those teams probably wont pay him that to be what he is. The whole discussion is absurd.

In the end, his agent is asking high to try and get some more money. He cant honestly expect to get that...right?

This thread is just blowing my mind by how persistently its going. No real point to this post. Just being amazed while I wait for some **** to download haha

 

And with one simple post, the posting of video clips is rendered meaningless.

 

haha, nor will he be at that silly amount.
It'll be entertaining to compare the difference between Hartline's 2013 contract to the one Nicks gets in 2014.
I bet you a month's avatar the difference between the two will be equal to or greater than Hartline's salary alone, putting your projection massively off base.

 

You're on the planet in which you're comparing Eli Manning to Chad Henne, Matt Moore, and Ryan Tannehill, and in which TD catches by wide receivers is meaningless. Real simple.

Now, all of that is backed up by objective data and has been repeated ad nauseam, yet it's being caricatured as so psychotic that it must originate from elsewhere in the galaxy, so at this point I have to wonder what planet I'm on.

 

Ah, but when you can't attack the evidence, you attack the poster, so you've become the topic after all, much like I often am.

 

We spend large amounts of time and space arguing the meaning of Brian Hartline's touchdown totals, yet this post elicits nothing more than a "crickets chirping" response, while the discussion plows on.

 

Fin D isn't making s*** up. You were the one comparing Hartline & Nicks' YPA, YPC, catches on 31+ yard throws, and then tried to argue how Nicks' stats are better b/c of his QB, more targets, blah blah blah, and on top of it said that since Nicks isn't a FA this year to sign for 5-6 million we should sign Hartline for that amount instead, which is no different than saying you believe Nicks & Hartline are no different in ability.

 

Uh, wrong again.

Miami's combined 2011 QBR: 84.9 (Hitman TDs: 1)

Eli Manning's 2010 QBR: 85.3 (Nicks TDs: 11)​

Shouwrong's argument go booom.
If you bothered to watch those 7 Nicks' TDs (of many) you'd see why he scores more regardless of his QB putting up the same passer rating as Hartline's.

The planet Obtuse, in the Cuckoo Galaxy, one planet further than HeadInTheSand.

 

So how can it be that the correlation between wide receivers' TDs and winning is just -0.19 when QB rating is controlled for?

 

Because accountants and statisticians don't play the game.