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Hartline wants 5-6 million per season

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Perfectville_USA, Jan 26, 2013.

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  1. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    No. Have u ever tried counting to ten, putz...
     
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  2. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Like I said, you tell me why we wouldn't blame the results, if they exist, on the quarterbacks involved, and I'll do the research you're wanting to see. Real simple.
     
  3. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I'd feel much better if we drafted Lacy and let he and Miller battle it out. I just don't see "every down back" when I watch Lamar Miller. Runs too soft, goes down too easy, asks out of the game too quick, etc.
     
  4. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    yeah, to see how far back in line I was from Fin-O's ole lady. :shifty:
     
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  5. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Because good wrs can create TDs on their own? Obviously QB play is a factor but last year we had on one who could take a routine catch and turn it into a big play or TD with their own set of talents. That's what needs to be fixed.
     
  6. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I'd feel better with Lacy as well, but I do like Miller's potential, and I personally thought Thomas was running harder and better as the year progressed, up until getting injured..... but Lacy is a bull. It'd be a hoot to get him in the 2nd round and watch him outproduce his Bama predecessors, which I think is shockingly possible.
     
  7. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    None of that correlates with winning, however, when you control for the number of TD passes thrown overall.

    So again, why wouldn't we blame the quarterbacks for their inability to throw more than three TDs to the receivers in those seasons, assuming that would be the finding?
     
  8. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    And in a nut shell you've explained why so many of your conclusions based upon slivers of technical analysis are bogus- you have to watch the games and decide, subjectively, how to rate the performance/importance/role played in scoring pass TDs.

    The numbers that I'm suggesting you look at, which you're clearly running from, would paint the picture form a different angle. get to the heart of the issue- few here really seem to care cares about the percentage of WR TDs to overall TDs, that's just something you drummed up (ie a straw man argument) to support a weak thesis. Stop taking a side view, look at the issue head on- how do the # of WR TD receptions effect winning? When was the last time that a team with 3 WR TD receptions or fewer had a winning season? You can promote this argument and extend it measureably, but you choose not to run these relatively simple numbers. Interesting. Again, it looks as if you're less interested in the truth than making highly dubious points and then playing a game of "prove me wrong".
     
  9. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Specifically speaking, the coaching staff was very conservative, and understandably so with Tannehill. The Dolphins threw inside the 10 yd line 13 times. The Falcons for example threw 43 times. Certainly there is a lot that goes into that of course.
     
  10. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Right, and I don't believe there are more than 10-15 WRs (thats being generous) in the league that actually do force defenses to change what they normally do.
     
  11. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    I've answered this before- my first thought as per lousy numbers would be that the QB blows, I would certainly cast a good part of the blame there at first glance. So honor your word now and run the numbers, thx.
     
  12. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    What exactly would the answer to that question prove, in your view?
     
  13. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Do you have point here? You doubt the existence of WRs as having "special abilities" to catch TDs, and that's reflected in my post, ie the omission of WR talent as a TD causative factor. So to use a metaphor, your more agnostic than atheistic when it comes to WRs actually having ability to score TDs, right? Because you said "if it exists", as opposed to "doesn't exist". That's your point? Ok, fine with me.
     
  14. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Wait a minute: (and here's where your reading comprehension has suffered once again...) I said I'd do the research if you could tell me why we wouldn't blame the findings, if they exist, on the quarterbacks involved, not why we would.
     
  15. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Yes, that's my point, because whether wide receivers have that ability or not, their TD production is widely variable, and winning is much more strongly associated with passing TDs in general than passing TDs to them, specifically.

    Have we reached Valhalla?
     
  16. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    It doesn't correlate in your dream world. In the real world people use film study, not statistics, to evaluate players. You'd be one of the most knowledgeable posters on the forum if you ever got around to accepting that.
     
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  17. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    How would we know when I was wrong?
     
  18. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    If you would stop trying to cover your a** and run the numbers, that would be helpful to the conversation. Honestly, you trying to gauge my points of interest doesn't reflect well- it makes it look like you're trying to play games. I'm curious to see how often teams have been succewssfull when there are very few QB to WR pass TDs, plain and simple. As Anthony Hopkins said in Meet Joe Black, tell the truth and "let the chips fall where they may."

    There is no definitive proof on this issue, I hope that you realize that by now. At the end of the day you need to use subjectivity, your own judgement, to place importance, credit and blame on both the WR or QB. One catches, the other throws, you can't escape it or statistic that reality away.
     
  19. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    And it reflects well on you when you move the goal posts and ask me to kick your field goal for you by doing the research, while telling me it doesn't reflect well on me when I ask what the purpose of that would be? :confused1:

    Honestly, what world are you living in?
     
  20. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    which time?
     
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  21. finfaninilinois

    finfaninilinois Active Member

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    Are we really still arguing our receiver issue??? Really!!! give it a rest
     
  22. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Ever. If I'm collecing data with my eyes alone, how would we know when I'm right or wrong?
     
  23. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Only you and a few others seem to give a crap as to the percentage breakdown- on an offense starved for offensive TDs and especially pass TDs most here would like to see the WRs contribute more, plain and simple. When your starting TE, who is known more for his blocking and being an all around player as opposed to a scoring threat, scores two and a half times more receiving TDs than your starting WRs COMBINED, that's a pretty good indication that there's a problem there.

    I'm far more interested in correcting that than concerning myself with an offense that spreads around pass TDs correalting with more wins- score one for well rounded offenses, I guess, otherwise this is either here nor there.

    I don't think that I need to address your WR variabilityand lack of ability theory any more, let's let that one air out for a bit.
     
  24. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Sure, but as you can probably tell, I don't base what I think on how many people give a crap. :)

    Possibly. It's also possibly the problem that your quarterback threw for only 12 touchdowns on the season.

    What do you say? Another thousand posts or so? ;)
     
  25. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Again, the goal post metaphor, how refreshing. I'm living in a world where you propose half baked theories, usually with some rather obscure statistics of questionable relevance, play a game of "prove me wrong" and then run and hide when confronted with issues that challenge your conclusions. Just man up and run the numbers as you said you would.
     
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  26. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Is this where I'm supposed to feel emasculated if I don't do it? ;)
     
  27. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Gee, would/wouldn't, sorry I missed that one. At the end of the day (surprise!) I'd have to watch the film to really see why I "wouldn't" blame the findings on the QB or WRs for that matter.
     
  28. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nobody is doing that. We're watching the games and looking at their play as well. Johnson has always scored TDs and so it's an anomaly when he doesn't. It's why we don't subscribe to looking at an excel spreadsheet and making determinations. It's why we take into account how those TDs are scored. Factors that lead to TDs include: exceptional speed, huge body, jumping ability, yards after the catch, quick juking abilities etc.

    When a player doesn't have them, they don't have them. Hartline don't have them.

    When someone scores 1 TD a year, always, and someone else says that's irrelevant than we call BS. It is relevant. We're arguing totality of the circumstances, not ONE number on an excel spreadsheet.
     
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  29. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    The one thing that's important to note is that when reading a Shou post, he's arguing something very specific, and it's easy for that to lead into larger, unrelated arguments. Only he knows if this is done on purpose.
     
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  30. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I think there are a lot other factors you aren't including in that list. Really this just illustrates the stylistic preference that is pervasive.

    Sure, and lots of players don't have the intelligence or technique that Hartline has.

    Its relevant in the right context. In this case, its emblematic of the entire team. The same way Brandon Marshall only having 4 TDs last season was a reflection of the team's ability, not necessarily his.
     
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  31. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Jim1 said this
    and you follow up with this

    That seems pretty irrelevant to the point in its entirety...... which is ironic...

    It is a solid point regardless of the QB throwing 3 TDs, 12 TDs, or 500 TDs on a season.... doesn't change it.
     
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  32. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Well, considering that the "inflation" of the argument is initiated by others, and I'm willing to repeat my original point numerous times to numerous individuals over the course of more than a thousand posts, I'd hardly say it's intentional.
     
  33. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    It happens so often, I'd say it's done on purpose. Probably how he gets his jollies.
     
  34. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    An anomaly due to what, quarterback play? The kind Hartline's had his whole career? :headscratch:
     
  35. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Don't flatter yourself.
     
  36. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Brian Hartline just blinked. Tell me what happened in that time........


























    Tannehill hit Fasano for a more reliable Td... :up:
     
  37. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Your correlations are all wrong, so your eyes could only do the same or better. Don't you trust yourself to watch actual football games and be able to tell which players are more talented? If you don't, then I can understand why you sit deep in your underground laboratory in a white lab coat conjuring up stats that prove a lot of nothing.
     
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  38. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    If watching the games tells you all you need to know, why is there ever any disagreement about anything among the people who watch all the games and base their opinions on what they see?
     
  39. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The same reason that people disagree about any topic?
     
  40. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The kind that threw for a 26 TD pace last year where Hartline caught Zero? That kind of QB play. The one where Bess caught 3 from him, Hartline 0. The kind that throws 16TDs in 9 games. Hartline. 0.

    I can go on. ;)
     
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