1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Dolphins agree to referendum for stadium tax dollars

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Joe Robbie, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

    9,767
    3,436
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    North of the Border
    I don't know if you've been paying attention over the last decade or so, but this franchise hardly the Holy Grail of NFL franchises anymore.
    This franchise is far from being above getting moved. In fact, other than history - which really means squat - this franchise has alot of the earmarks you look in relocation candidates.
    Do I really believe the Miami Dolphins will move? No. But to believe this franchise is to great to be considered for relocation is living in the past.
     
  2. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    There is more that the NFL wants. They want hundreds of millions in money from the city.
     
  3. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

    7,760
    3,486
    113
    Sep 4, 2010
    Maui, Hawaii
    If the Dolphins continue to be a mediocre football team, it won't matter where they end up playing. If they were to move, the fans in the city where they move to would obviously attend games the first few years. The point is that fans in most cities will only support a mediocre team for so long. Eventually they get fed up and stop paying for tickets or watching games on TV if their team is a loser, year after year.

    I do agree that states and cities have constantly given into the demands of these rich owners by providing tax dollars to help build or renovate stadiums. Of course the fact today is that most cities and states are not in the same financial condition they were in prior to the economic downturn. When states and cities are cutting back on education spending, medicare care and many other necessary items for its citizens, it is hard to justify spending any form of tax dollars to help these privately run football teams. Especially when the owners have the financial resources to pay for these renovations themselves.

    It should also be noted that when a city or county uses tax dollars to build a stadium, they receive financial payments from the sports team based on the revenues earned by the team. They also receive part of the concession and in many cases, part of the money from parking fees on the stadium grounds. The city or county also is the owner of the stadium. This is not the case with the Dolphins stadium. Ross owns the stadium and therefore he gets all the revenue generated by the stadium. If he decides to leave Miami and take the Dolphins to another city, he will be able to sell the stadium and he will receive all the financial benefits of this sale. This is not the case in which other cities or counties build the stadium and they can do what it what they wish if a team decides to go elsewhere.
     
    oakelmpine likes this.
  4. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

    12,363
    7,091
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Burnaby, BC, Canada
    I don't live in Miami so, if I am honest, I don't care where the money comes from or even if the team stays. My allegiance will follow the franchise where the go.

    I do have some experience in this because here in Vancouver we just went through something similar. In 2008 PavCo (who owns B.C. Place and the surrounding lands and is a Government run agency) announced they were renovating the stadium. Instead of doing the full reno BEFORE the Winter Olympics they did phase 1 (new seats, bathrooms wider concourses etc.) before and phase 2 (new roof, outside etc.) after. The original cost was estimated at around $175 million but the budget and final tally eventually came in at $550 million. This was all decided by government with little public consultation.

    Yes, the renovations transformed it into a World class facility. The old B.C. Place was a TOTAL ****hole and the new building is fantastic. That said, people here are still freaking out about it.

    Maybe I'm being too simplistic but this is how I see it from the Miami angle:

    Either the stadium is getting built, partially on the backs of the tax payer or the stadium will eventually become so dilapidated that the owner of the team at the time (I'm thinking 10 years ahead here) will have a reason to move the club. Ross will get it done with the taxpayers or he will sell. It's that simple. No owner is going to foot the bill for a renovation of this scope, not when he looks at other owners of other teams getting their stadiums and renovations being paid for by the tax payer of that jurisdiction.
     
  5. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    They get it.......

    They do not care if the city gives money to build the stadiums. The NFL, if asked, has to match it penny per penny...
     
  6. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Their worst season in many years and they still made an excellent profit. That means that the NFL made theirs. It's not living in the past.
     
  7. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

    9,767
    3,436
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    North of the Border
    Of course they had buy seats themselves to avoid blackouts to make some of the profit
     
  8. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box


    Those seats were taken out of the equation sorry
     
  9. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

    24,217
    36,005
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I hope my tax money goes to the new stadium. At least I'd get some benefit from it... instead of the other crap they'll spend it on that has zero impact on me...
     
  10. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Right, and naturally they'd prefer to have their money matched, as opposed to not being matched.
     
  11. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    And in the meantime, the organization would get hundreds of millions of dollars from the new city, as opposed to $0 from Miami.

    You realize that plenty of bad teams get money all the time?

    Look at the state of Texas. Almost all of their job growth can be traced back to giving businesses money to relocate.
     
  12. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    They don't want anything. It does not go to the NFL in one way or another. Teams pay for their part in revenue sharing no matter what. So it all goes to the owner of said stadium.
     
  13. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    They would need it to break even. They spent hundreds of millions of dollars to buy the current stadium their team plays in and they can't bring it with them.
     
  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Hey Oz, I believe you asked me in another thread about the Miami hurricane basketball situation and how it disproves my POV about the energy and intimacy inside if a building.

    Well, I can argue that the canes weren't **** in basketball, ever, but a few years after, after building a special little building, they have Lebron James and Dwayne wade sittin court side.. I'm sure your going to argue and bicker with me about that, but the energy in a building can impact way down the road, and that road can have many little roads that curtail right off it..

    For example, if the building wasn't special and didn't create such an incredible atmosphere, would they be there, and would the recruits who see them there in a place that is electric go somewhere else?, or would they be more inclined to sign with the U..my point, because of the building, the impact of it, is doing its job...and then some, it's literally recruiting in its own way, making it more appealing for talented players to want to come here and play..

    That's how you build a culture that can lend a hand in helping you win games.
     
  15. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    There is no arguing it Deej. The building was a ghost town every season and thru most of this season as well. It didn't happen until the Duke game and it would have never started had they not been on a win streak. That streak started with the place being a ghost town as well.

    The crowd we're seeing now is because of the way Coach L has went to no end to get the UM students involved. Having his team deliver free pizza all over the place. Buying hundreds of donuts and putting together a good team.
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I realize that brother, but if the building wasn't in place to accentuate the electricity when the time was appropriate, when the team was ready, you may not reach that critical level that is the start of a real home field advantage..
     
  17. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Yet, I've been a witness to nearly the same thing at Dolphins stadium many times. Other than the fact that the Canes Bball team plays in a tight arena...

    Home field advantage usually begins with a new season that looks bright, or it comes with a team that seems to be destined for some great things. Especially in Miami but you need to face the facts Deej. There will never be another Orange Bowl here. It's just not happening. The aluminum seats alone made a HUGE difference in noise. We could bang on them things all game long and it carried. Those type of seats are never going to happen again in the NFL for comforts sake..
     
  18. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

    2,033
    677
    0
    May 3, 2010
    I wholeheartedly disagree on people coming to the stadium. The Arizona Cardinals have sucked a long time. They opened their new stadium in 2004 and this has been their record since and they have sold out every single year. The population is not even close to what it is in Miami and the job market is as bad as it has been in Florida so affordablity was no excuse and this is before, during and after Kurt Warner. S. Florida has changed a lot. You can look all around the league attendance is down but some cities that have good fans still go to the games if for nothing else is something to do on a Sunday. Seattle was the same way. They sucked for years but the place up there has been sold out since its been opened. I do not buy the team wins the fans will come bunk. I do not live in Florida but if I did I would be at every game. I go to most of them now anyway. Do not care. Sure I would love a play off every year but in the real world thats not happening.

    The 16 seasons prior to 2004 had ONE WINNING season. They played at Sun Devil Stadium. If you think Sun Life is bad then you have never been to Tempe Arizona. It was like going to a game on the face of the Sun.Nobody,and Imean nobody went to the games. When we first moved here I went to a few just to do something on Sunday and see football. It was basically friggin Empty because of the Heat. Made Florida look like Beverly hills temperature wise. Bam, they build a new stadium with a retractable roof ? Same old ****tty cardinals and the place has been sold out ever since.

    2004 6 wins 10 loss
    2005 5 wins 11 loss
    2006 5 wins 11 loss
    2007 8 wins 8 loss
    2008 9 wins 7 loss
    2009 10 wins 6 loss
    2010 5 wins 11 loss
    2011 8 wins 8 loss
    2012 5 wins 11 loss
     
    djphinfan likes this.
  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    We just totally disagree on what level of tangible electricity can make an impact on both teams, positively and negatively..we also disagree in the science of it, proximity is a major issue when it comes to generating the necessary energy to make the impact I see in other special venues.
     
  20. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    If they continue to suck, it will get worse and worse. The Dolphins have had two decent seasons in the last decade and until 2010 they sold out every game. They had 100 straight sellouts even though the team let them down year after year..
     
  21. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    We sure do. You think it's the main problem (the energy at the stadium) is the stadium. Myself and the rest of the world think it will cure itself if they win some games. Everyone agrees that the seats could be closer. But yet we witnessed some pretty good noise during the Raiders game with a half empty stadium. Bringing the seats closer, though a good idea, and something I've always wanted will only raise the noise a tad...
     
  22. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Look, just because we were spoiled by Joe Robbie not using taxpayer money to build the stadium 15 yrs ago, doesn't mean that every owner can do the same... and as was said above, just because the Marlins screwed SFL, doesn't mean the Fins will do the same... A win-win for everyone is getting the Super Bowl back to SFL...nothing less....
     
  23. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    26,254
    17,386
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Orlando
    Steven Ross actually can do the same.

    And you also presume that we will not get another Super Bowl without the renovations, which is simply unfounded at this point. John Mara already said that we'd be in the Super Bowl rotation with or without the renovations since everyone enjoys being in Miami.

    The NFL's stance is so immensely hypocritical it's astounding. They are willingly going to NY next eyar where it will likely be snowing, but we have to spend $200 million on a roof because it rained once out of ten times we had the game.

    It's nonsense. And it's not about the Super Bowl at all. It's about increasing the revenue that Steven Ross can generate from the stadium by eliminating seats that nobody wants, adding seats where they might, and using the roof to entice people to come. All of this is fine by the way and I support the changes. But Ross should pay for them since he's the one who will see the overwhelming benefits from them.
     
  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    You have the choice between two cities: one that will give you $0, and one that will give you $200M. Which are you going to choose? Why would an NFL owner choose to stay in a city that won't subsidize his business, when plenty of other cities will?
     
  25. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    The monies spent on the current stadium are baked into the price of the franchise. And if the team leaves Miami, Ross still owns the stadium, and will still make profits off of it.
     
  26. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    No, its about increasing SB revenue. The luxury suites in the current stadium aren't going to sell for the same price as the suites in a new stadium.
     
  27. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Wow is all I can say..I really hate that you don't get it Oz..and imo, you really don't get it..but I luv ya anyways.

    Mike tirico.." I really think these guys are somewhat discombobulated, this crowd, the atmosphere is too much for them, its obviously affecting them, the energy from the crowd is suffocating them, and fueling that defense..

    Michigan states stadium is one of the closest, most intimate in college sports.
     
  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Another wow, if you don't think a world class venue with world class events can bring economic value to a region, you sir are about as off as it gets.
     
  29. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    The stadium is the reason the price he paid was so high. The worth of the franchise is 750,000,000. The stadium is 250,000,000. They won't be baked in if he leaves. There are also bond payments that are set to go sky high soon and the montly electric bills and upkeep alone will leave him without much of a profit unless you think he can host an event twice a month? Doubtful..
     
  30. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Yes, wow comes to mind. I cannot believe how many times I've explained how much I actually do get it and even more how it is you that don't get what I'm saying. Seriously man, if you think it's so much of a difference over winning first and foremost, it is you that don't have a clue.

    There is no intimate setting at a sports venue btw. It's called most hostlile and we may NEVER see that again here in Miami. Not when money is the main issue instead of doing what is right and make the stadium seating about 10,000 seats less than it is. There are just too many people that have migrated here who are fans of other teams.
     
  31. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Well holy mackeral man! If it was as easy as you seem to make it out to be then why don't we see NFL teams move every other year?
     
    Coral Reefer likes this.
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Here's what you don't get, there IS absolutely such a thing as an intimate venue, and it absolutely affects the energy in the building, the level of excitement generated, and the tangible electricity that comes from proximity..and obviously the results that can come from it..

    You thinking that a half empty sunlife provided what I'm talking about is what you don't have a clue about..just because you thought it was does not make it to be true..

    There is a 400 million dollar referendum that has come out and proved my point, a referendum that explicitly depicts and describes issues within the building that exactly coincide with my POV, fixing them, and showing visuals of that projected intimacy to get people excited..I don't need to keep defending my POV to folks who tell me that I don't have a clue what I'm talkin about..Mike dee and company have spoken, you choose to ignore and not read what's really being said.
     
  33. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

    13,057
    8,875
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Hamilton, Ontario Canada
    Proving once again that Miami and Ross are offering a good deal. The Falcons are threatening to pull a Patriots move into the suburbs if Atlanta won't pony up nearly a billion dollars to replace 20 year old Georgia Dome.

    http://www.foxsportssouth.com/02/13...nding_falcons.html?blockID=863631&feedID=3703

     
    Colorado Dolfan likes this.
  34. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Because the current cities always end up ponying up the money.
     
  35. oakelmpine

    oakelmpine New Member

    3,328
    339
    0
    Oct 16, 2012
    No doubt the Hurricanes have synergy right now, but that is due more to winning and having a senior laden team than because of the building. The place was a mausoleum early this season, just as it has been since it was opened back in 2003.

    DJ the key ingredient in getting life back into Sun Life Stadium is WINNING 1st. You can have an intimate new stadium and all but it will just as lifeless if the Phins can't start winning.
     
  36. oakelmpine

    oakelmpine New Member

    3,328
    339
    0
    Oct 16, 2012
    also people could argue, that if you can raise this money from tourists why spend it on a privately owned stadium, when you can raise this money and spend it on firemen, police, schools, roads, etc. Spending tax dollars that way is much more beneficial to everyday living for the citizens of Miami-Dade County.

    Let Ross pay for it. It's his PRIVATELY owned stadium.
     
  37. oakelmpine

    oakelmpine New Member

    3,328
    339
    0
    Oct 16, 2012
    Because DJ, when it comes down to it, are the Dolphins, the U or any other sports teams really that important ? I dare say most of the citizens of Miami-Dade live their lives almost blissfully unaware that those sports teams even exist. Any tax dollars raised should be used to benefit all of the citizens of the county, not just those that care about sports, and especially to financially benefit a man that doesn't even make South Florida his home.
     
  38. oakelmpine

    oakelmpine New Member

    3,328
    339
    0
    Oct 16, 2012
    Dude if you believe the Cardinals were selling out in Tempe or even in Glendale except for the Super Bowl season, you are on crack. Dude the only games that would sell out were the Dallas, Giants and maybe Green Bay games and that was because the stadium was filled with 30-40% fans from the other team.
     
  39. oakelmpine

    oakelmpine New Member

    3,328
    339
    0
    Oct 16, 2012
    With no specific promises of any Super Bowls from the NFL, why should we do it ? Make the NFL sign it in paper, on a contract, we have to have a Super Bowl every 4 years or 5 years.....but the NFL won't do that. They only give a vague promise to "consider" us. It's not good enough. They need to put it in writing.
     
  40. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    No they don't and especially no when the team stinks. Hell, it took the city of Los Angeles 30 years and the loss of three teams to finally pony up money. Yeah the teams moved out but that's not happening in Miami. Ross has said he will pay for it if he has to and I'm guess that will be the case! He owns the place and leaving it empty almost year round is not a profitable venue.
     
    oakelmpine likes this.

Share This Page