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Tavon austin

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Feb 24, 2013.

  1. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    name me ONE receiver in the NFL who IS an every down player?
     
  2. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I don't think Brian Hartline is worthy of a first-round pick. I sure as hell don't think Mike Thomas is worthy of a first round pick.

    The fact you're using DeSean Jackson really shows how thin the case is. Steve Smith may be the only good example used thus far.
     
  3. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Calvin Johnson. Andre Johnson. Larry Fitzgerald. Reggie Wayne. Demarius Thomas. Julio Jones. Roddy White. AJ Green. I could keep going. Those guys are all able to play on the outside regularly.
     
  4. Ray Lucas

    Ray Lucas Member

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    1st round? I'll pass.
     
  5. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    that makes no sense IMO. It's like you're saying we can only take a perimeter guy that high despite him not seeing more touches than Austin (see Cobb in GB) and despite perimeter guys not being every down players b/c they all spend time on the sideline for breathers and such.
     
  6. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Nope, not every down players. They ALL spend time on the sideline.
     
  7. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    This is really just a matter of semantics. They can beat press coverage and block. They can play any of the WR positions. You're flailing.
     
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  8. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I wouldn't have even gone that far.
     
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  9. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Exactly ginn was a one trick pony.Straight line speed and no lateral quickness at all.Very poor comparison.
     
  10. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    What exactly is the logical explanation for why a short or small guy can't play outside?

    It's not because they are overwhelmed physically because they can only be touched in the first 5 yards. It's not because they can't get off the press because short quick guys are some of the best at getting off the press. And even if they weren't, most teams don't play a lot of bump and run. Some teams almost never do it. There aren't a whole lot of corners who are really good at it, and of the ones that are, many are big guys like Sean Smith who struggle against super fast, super quick guys. Yeah, the catch radius for small guys is a little smaller, but in many cases we're talking about the difference of just a few inches and the percentage of passes that require and outstretched fingertip grab are pretty small. It's true that there aren't a lot of great small outside receivers in the NFL now outside of Steve Smith. But there have been many in the past and there are no rule or other changes that I am aware of that make life harder for a small outside receiver now as compared to 10, 20 or 30 years ago. If anything, I think it has gotten easier for them.
     
  11. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Good thing Austin is worlds apart in talent than Hartline & Thomas then, eh. :p


    ....and the fact you keep ignoring Austin's role as a slot receiver etc really shows how thin your case is. Why do you guys keep treating Austin as if he's gotta be a 100% of the time perimeter receiver? What was Welker doing in 2007 when Randy Moss was starting on one side and Gaffney & Stallworth shared the starts on the other? acting as the Gatorade boy? Cmon. Welker led the team with 112 receptions, 14 more than Moss and 28 more than Gaffney & Stallworth. The way you guys are downplaying the type of roll that can be created for Austin is becoming outlandish WADR.
     
  12. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    This doesn't make sense. The WR can be touched in the first 5 yards. If you can't get past those first five yards, you are DOA. Who exactly are these short and quick guys that are the best at beating the press? The biggest reason why so many WRs come in the league and fail is because they never can beat press coverage. Guys like Ted Gin and DeSean Jackson would be good players in this league if that wasn't the case.
     
  13. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    And Steve Smith is certainly the exception, not the rule.

    What people are missing is that IN THIS OFFENSE, the receivers have to be able to play all three spots and run a complete route tree. Green Bay doesn't have guys that are slot only, X only, or Z only. All their guys are interchangeable, and all their guys run a full route tree from each position. Look at Austin. 78% of the his receptions have come for 10 yards or shorter in range. He doesn't run intermediate stuff to the level of an average receiver, and he's definitely below average relative to going down the field.
     
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  14. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I'm not downplaying anything. He could be a great slot WR. IMO he can't play on the outside. Considering all that, I don't think he's worthy of a first round pick. I'm not sure how outlandish it is, because its pretty much the consensus opinion that he can't play on the outside.
     
  15. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    It's not a poor comparison. Ginn was a receiver that lacked a complete receiver skill set who had great speed. Austin is a receiver that lacks a complete receiver skill set who has great speed.
     
  16. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    and you don't think a 4.3 guy who's lightening quick and twitchy as they come can't beat press, especially if he's lined up off the line? No, you're flailing by assuming Austin can't play outside when in fact you have no concrete evidence to support such notion other than saying he's too small. If anything, his underlying ability DOES suggest he can play outside b/c he has the type of quick, explosive, twitchy skill set that it hard for a DB to get his hands on.
     
  17. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    No, quickness and twitchiness aren't very important at beating press coverage.
     
  18. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    It's true. No one's an every down player. They all spend time on the sideline, so what's the difference between Calvin taking a few plays off in a series to rest and us going with a 2 TE formation during a few plays in a series? The bottom line and ALL THAT SHOULD MATTER is there are PLENTY of touches to be had by Austin, and it can be argued that his skill set would allow him for as many or more touches than a perimeter receiver drafted that highly.
     
  19. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    So you're saying one of the fastest and most elusive players in football with a respectable 14 in the bench will have trouble over the first 5 yards?

    Ginn can't beat press b/c he lacks twitchiness & explosion off the line.... and he's weak. He's a terrible example to use for an anti-Austin campaign. They're nothing alike in ability off the line. Question, what do you think happens if you try to press Austin at the line and he makes you whiff?
     
  20. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    If he weighs 175 and is as short as Austin is, then absolutely. He's going to have trouble when anyone gets their hands on him.

    He'll beat you. But "making people wiff" is not how you consistently beat press. Its a pretty inconsistent way. You can't just beat press sometimes or most of the time and be successful.
     
  21. frags

    frags New Member

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    On a phone so bear with me, but Austin is actually an exception to this notion. He is actually quite effective going down the field as a traditional outside receiver. From my memory, the Okla video demonstrates this on one or two occasions. In general, having watched a few WVU games myself, I have seen him run routes downfield. I will see if I can find more video from games once I get a chance to demonstrate this.

    He is best used on short to intermediate routes, but that does not mean he is incapable of running a go, post, flag, deep in or out, etc. Nor was that his responsibility in the WVU offense.
     
  22. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Randall Cobb doesn't run a diverse route tree from the outside, just to be clear.
    Look at Austin, when you remove the screen-sweeps, 10% of his passes are 20+ yards downfield. The fact you keep intentionally trying to make Austin's numbers seem bad by comparing them to those of an outside receiver (even though Austin spent most of his time in the slot) just shows how biased you are in this case. Compare Austin's numbers to Randall Cobb at KY and tell me what you get. Seriously, what the heck do you think the role and typical route tree is of a slot receiver, especially one who is a weapon in the screen game? You seriously think he's not gonna get a ton of quick pass opportunities with his ability?

    Like I said in another thread, your guy Quinton Patton must reallllllly suck as an outside receiver if he catches the same percentage of 20+ yard passes as Austin (10%) even though Tavon was a slot guy.




    For the record I'm a big fan of Patton.
     
  23. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    so in your opinion playing on the outside has a greater significance than total number of touches?
     
  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I think when you're talking about using the #12 pick, there needs to be a certain level of versatility.
     
  25. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Randall Cobb is one of the best route-runners in the NFL, and he was a great route-runner at UK. Much better than Austin has shown IMO.
     
  26. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    so it's all about brute strength, huh?
    It's amazing Miami's offense was any good with years of Duper (5'9, 185), Clayton (5'9, 177), Moore (5'9 184) starting together, and that was before the 5 yard rule even existed.

    Bunch of hypocrites you guys are. Some of the best receiving years we saw were with Tavon Austin sized receivers.... ON THE OUTSIDE.
     
  27. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    No, it has very little to do with strength actually. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.

    I'd also like to point out that you're examples are getting worse as this progresses. You're using guys that played 30 years ago now.
     
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  28. DolfanTom

    DolfanTom Livin' and Dyin' w/ Ryan!

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    Unless that WR of that size is going against Sean Smith, in which case it's easy for him to win at the LOS, the flat, down the field, etc.

    W/ all due respect, this would be NOTHING like the Ginn pick. Ginn has straight line speed, and takes about five seconds to get up to max speed. No shifting ability. Austin is a quick little dude who accelerates quickly and is like Barry Sanders light w/ his moves/shifting. Much different player. Oh, and he can catch, rather than "dropping the ball as though it were of a high temperature."
     
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  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I don't recall his route tree being nearly as diverse as what Austin ran.... and there were numerous draft profiles saying his route-running still needed developing.

    I have a hard time believing a slot receiver playing running back & wildcat QB was a better route runner than a receiver with 183 more catches, 2084 more yards, and 20 more TDs. I watched Cobb's college film, and his routes were often much simpler than Tavon's.
     
  30. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    .... and how often will corners want to press him if he can make them whiff and subsequently kill them for it? It goes both ways. I don't think he'll be pressed nearly as often as Ginn was b/c, unlike Ginn, Austin poses a better chance of making the corner pay dearly for it.
     
  31. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    and how is there not a level of versatility involved when talking about a player who might just be the most versatile guy in the draft? What's not versatile about being a slot receiver who can take a screen to the house, beat coverage over the top, take sweeps & reverses to the house, line up at tailback in the pistol on read option plays w/o having to alter personnel, take punts & KOs to the house, and still have the ability to play outside on occasion to create matchup vs corners who have problems with explosive receivers?

    Honestly, you & few others act as though every NFL corner is big, physical, and gifted at pressing and that every team plays that type of coverage.
     
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  32. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I'm also using examples of great small receivers who did NOT have the rules favoring them like in today's game.
     
  33. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Right, but the definition of small in 1980 and 2013 isn't really the same.
     
  34. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    That isn't enough to be considered versatile at the WR position IMO. That really isn't anything different than a lot of great athletes that come into the NFL. A lot of players can do all that, but aren't complete WRs in the NFL.

    Definitely not every team. It doesn't need to be every team though. Just a few teams being able to do it are enough to make it prohibitive. Getting off the LOS cleanly 90% of the time isn't good.
     
  35. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    As often as the defensive scheme dictates. Defenses aren't changing their scheme based on the WR. A chance of making him pay for it isn't really good enough though. You can't just sometimes get beat at the LOS, then win other times.
     
  36. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    He can be touched but he can't be grabbed and, as I said, most teams don't even do that. Second, elusiveness and quickness have a lot to do with beating press coverage. Steve smith is good at it. Cobb seems to have no real problems with it. Duper, Clayton, Gary Clark, Ernest Givens, etc. were all small/short guys that were very successful against the press. Remember what happened when Duper and Clayton played against Mike Haynes and Lester Hayes in the mid-80s? Haynes and Haynes were probably the best bump and run tandem in modern NFL history and they did it at a time when the rules allowed a lot more contact than the rules do now. In 1984, Marino threw for 470 yards and 4 TDs against the Raiders with a receiving corps of almost exclusively sub 5-10 guys. In 1986, Duper and Clayton both went for 100+ yards against Hayes/Haynes. The Bears were the other big bump and run team back then and I suspect you remember how unsuccessful the Bears were in 1985 at trying to play press coverage against Duper/Clayton/Moore. Yeah, I know you will point out that was a long time ago, but I'll ask again the question that you chose not to answer the last time: in what way have the rules or officiating changed since then to make life harder for a small outside receiver?
     
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  37. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Nonsense. Of course you can. No receiver gets open every time. Whether it is because he gets beat at the LOS or otherwise is immaterial. If the guy doesn't get open you throw to someone else. Happens on every play. And if a 10% success rate was good for bump and run coverage, nobody would do it. No defense would ever play it if they felt they could only disrupt the route 10% of the time or less. And the thing with a guy like Austin is that if he beats it, he can kill you. If you whiff or stumble, there's virtually no chance of catching him.
     
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  38. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Steve Smith sure as hell isn't beating press coverage because of his quickness and elusiveness. You are rarely juking a guy at the LOS. You're winning at the LOS with technique and intelligence. The more length advantage the DB has on the WR, the better the WRs technique needs to be. Tavon Austin has 30" arms, which is as short as I can remember. That means he is already behind the 8-ball at the LOS.

    Rules or officiating haven't changed. Humans have changed. Again, the fact you're going back 30 years to make a point says it all.
     
  39. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    It is not about juking the guy, but quickness and elusiveness are very much a part of how Steve Smith gets off the line when pressed. And again, he is probably pressed a very small percentage of the time because most teams don't do it much and most CBs aren't especially good at it. Sean Smith has a big length advantage against all of the small, quick receivers that torch him, but that doesn't mean he can just stone them at the LOS.



    First, that is not true. rules and officiating have changed and they've made it easier for receivers because they allow for less contact by CBs. Second, humans haven't changed. Average player sizes may have increased but not by that much. And the point is that size isn't really the determining factor in ability to get off the LOS, as the WRs I mentioned did it routinely despite a bif size disadvantage even for their eras and despite the rules allowing more contact back then. And the fact that I am using some examples from 30 years ago hardly says it all since I have asked the question twice and you have yet to give an answer as to how that makes a difference. That is literally the weakest form of argument possible. I know you can do better than that, so let me rephrase it this way: why was a WR better able 30 years ago to overcome the press with a 4 inch, 20 lb size disadvantage than one is today with that same size disadvantage (or even a bigger one), especially in light of the changes in the DB contact rules and how they are officiated?
     
  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I understand that, but at the same time we didn't just have one 5'9 and under receiver; we had three, and during an era when there was no 5 yard rule.
     

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