I'm looking at some film of this guy and what I see is speed and power. 6-8 277 lbs., 4.60 40 and if I saw correctly he led the combine with 38 reps of 225 on the bench- impressive. His arms aren't particularly long but still, that's excellent. I see him blocking kicks, running through OL with power and he shows explosion around the corner, and that's good stuff for a 6-8 guy who's almost 280 lbs. If Devin Taylor showed this kind of explosion off the edge I'd like him better- still very good, but that gear is missing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SLCNaHJco Hunt is raw, new to the game and older at 25, which is a bad combo, but imo this is a developmental player that at minimum will be a speed and power edge rush threat, and we could use that. He brings a compelling combination of power and speed, and as a developmental guy he could turn into much more imo, a quality and complete DE. What surprises me is how quick he is and also how strong- I knew that he was big and fast, but when you add the quicks and strength to that it's quite a combo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGBBKibXTrs This clip above against Texas A&M- Hunt is getting tooled quite a bit, but he's going up against Joeckel, who might be the top pick of the draft. What I'm looking for are signs of what he can do, like the quicks he shows at 2:30 blocking a second kick in that game- I've seen him several times get knocked on his butt by Joeckel, but I see the other stuff like him using speed and quicks to slide in at 1:20- he doesn't make the play, but flashes potential imo. Joeckel shows why he's rated so highly, playing with great functional strength and use of leverage, functionally quick as well which certailnly shows better here than at the combine, where he did not impress me. But Hunt- he's pretty raw and he's going up against a guy who many rate as the best player in the draft this year- he's outclassed by Joeckel, but imo give Hunt more coaching and experience and he'll make a quantum leap against guys like this. I don't see anything that he can't do- he has the size and strength to play the run and I could see him using that speed to become an accomplished pass rusher- even though Joeckel bested him, from what I see Hunt can use leverage effectively and will get much better at that with coaching and more importantly game experience. Then again, there are times that he looks raw and inexperienced as well, like at 1:40 below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgNUN-Sqj_Y That's the downside, but then you have the arc bending like at 1:58 in the same clip, which is impressive especially given his size. He's the strongest DL at the combine, the tallest and one of the fastest, only Mingo and Trevardo Williams were slightly faster and they're both 240 LB linebackers imo- Mingo I'm just about convinced of that and Williams is not only 241 lbs, he's just a hair over 6-1. Good luck at DE in the NFL at that size. Hunt has the explosion to pop out at you on film, and at slightly over 6-8 and almost 280 lbs that's pretty amazing. He also uses his hands effectively, looks pretty natural in that regard imo. The bottom line to me is that I see him as a developmental player with outstanding tools and great upside, with some coaching and experience I could see him turning into quite a player. At 6-8 and as the strongest player at the combine and the fastest true DE- those are pretty outstanding tools to mold a player out of, and he looks like far more of a natural pass rusher than some of the other guys- he needs some work for sure, but truly impressive imo. Some more clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SLCNaHJco http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXIV8LYURsc ps As a darkhorse DE candidate take a look at Texas A&M Spencer Nealy- what first caught my eye was his speed after the Hunt blocked kick at 1:45 here, chasing down the ball carrier at the end, #99: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGBBKibXTrs This is just a first glance, but his speed did catch my eye http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xilrEhsGx9k Anyway, Hunt showed the most impressive physical skills of any DL at the combine, bar none. I think that he will be able to turn those elite physical tools into a productive NFL career, and I think that he would be a good fit for what we need in a pass rushing DE, and a developmental player who could turn into an outstanding all around DE.
Margus Hunt 'talk of town' at NFL Scouting Combine "There will be plenty of debate about which player improved his draft stock most at this week's NFL Scouting Combine. That comes down to what teams saw, not us, but put SMU defensive end Margus Hunt in the conversation. NFL.com's Daniel Jeremiah wrote Tuesday that Hunt "was the talk of the town" after his impressive workout this week in Indianapolis. Hunt boasts size -- 6-foot-8 and 277 pounds -- and his bench-press showing (38 reps at 225 pounds) turned heads. "He then proceeded to wow scouts by running a 4.60-second (40-yard dash) and posting a 38-inch vertical jump," Jeremiah wrote. "Hunt is very raw on tape, but his size and upside will likely force him into the bottom of the second round." http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...gus-hunt-talk-of-town-at-nfl-scouting-combine
Some will say Hunt is just a workout warrior, and that maybe true, but we know many coaches will look at such a specimen, and believe they can mold him into a player that equals his workout capability.
Well, when you look at his size speed combination and athleticism the next question is what are his football instincts like? IMO any player with his tools can excel in the league if he works hard enough at it, the real issue is can you roster him for the 2 yrs it will take for his game to blossom? Can he fill in at De and Lb? Can he contribute on special teams well enough to justify his presence eating a roster spot? Heck, we rolled the dice on Lee Robinson, who is nowhere near the specimen Hunt is.
I'll put it this way- I looked at William Gholston and I just don't see a very good pass rusher there. Ansah- for all he has to offer, he has to prove that he can beat OTs 1 on 1 and get to QBs in the pocket. Moore- talented imo, but speed/strength issues and he gets stonewalled, very disappointed by his combine performance. Jordan is an OLB imo. Devin Taylor is intriguing, but imo is a huge strider who has some speed but lacks burst. Washington looked awesome at the combine, his production hardly mirrored his physical tools. Mallicah Goodman doesn't strike me as particularly dynamic. Hunt- I revisited some film because of his dominating combine performance, and he pops to me. Explosion, burst, strength huge size, quickness, the works. He looks like a natural pass rusher to me who will get better with coaching and experience, shows flashes of leverage and hand use and he can certainly turn the corner and get to QBs. One heck of a kick blocker as well, using his size and quicks to get it done. I watched the Texas A&M clip 1st this time around because I wanted to see Joeckel get the best of him- he often did, but for better or worse with Hunt I can see it- I can see everything that I want to see in a DE, every positive trait- we'll see if he can put it all together in the NFL, I think he can with some experience under his belt. Based on planet theory, etc I'm guessing that Ireland likes this guy although his age is an issue, will be 26 this summer. What I like is that off the bat he's going to give you an edge rush and a threat to bat down some passes and block some kicks, which he's excelled at. Given a little time I think that he has every tool to become an outstanding all around DE- this is a huge, dynamic, explosive, strong and fast player, one of the best athletes in the draft if not the best. A gamble on greatness imo, but a relatively high floor on him given his pass rushing skills and that meshes nicely with our needs. Could be a heck of a 2nd rd pick.
With quick passing games like many teams prefer now, a player who can bat down passes at the line is as valuable as a sack master if not more. I'd take Hunt and play him at DT in the nickel package as rookie. He seems to already know the value of using his great reach to bat down passes.
It translated well enough for him to have 32 tackles and 9 sacks on the year and to dominate at his bowl game, although iirc the OT he went against was not very good. All of these DEs are gambles, but Hunt has every tool in the book, including speed and explosion at the LOS to go along with being the strongest player at the combine. For better or worse with some players I can see it, with others I can't. With Hunt I see all the physical ability that you would want and a guy who will get nothing but better with time, he is a prototype DE with triangle numbers that are off the charts, probably the best in the entire draft.
He's a 26 year old olympic caliber athlete man and he faced an 18 year old undersized boy who was like the 731st rated prospect in the state of California one year earlier. Yeah. He dominated him. The question is, do you care? I remember a year ago I caught a lot of questions from people about Brandon Weeden's being so old. They said, of course he dominated, he was a man playing amongst boys, literally. I didn't buy it because he plays the most cerebral of all positions in the NFL and so his age gave him no unfair benefits. I said that if he were playing a physically-oriented position, that would be an excellent point because that age is your physical prime as a professional athlete. Well, fast forward to Margus Hunt in 2013. He IS playing a physical position, quite literally a position where he as an olympic caliber athlete at 26 years old with man muscles in his physical prime, got to beat up on 18 and 19 year old players. That's what he did. He beat up on inferior athletes that were 6 to 8 years younger than him. Note his work against any tackle that had any kind of talent like Texas A&M's pair.
Regardless of Hunt's age, his combine numbers and physical abilities are off the charts. The Texas A&M clip was the 1st that I revisited, specifically because of Joeckel and Matthews. His stats were mariginal- 3 tackles and a sack- but he also had 2 blocked kicks iirc. He was certainly outclassed by Joeckel, who was impressive in his strength and use of leverage/hands imo, sending Hunt to the turf multiple times. Look at the play at :15- Hunt is dynamic, way more than Devin Taylor from what I've seen. There are plays like at :30 where Joeckel just clears him out, but again, this is Hunt going up against maybe the top pick in the draft. At :46 he buries Joeckel- my point is that you see enough raw ability in him that getting beat by a LT of Joeckel's stature is no crime. Look at the torque he gets on Joeckel with his hand use at 1:12, and he sends him to the turf again at 2:08. 3:17 he engages Joeckel, controls him with his hands, slides down the LOS and makes the tackle. Interesting how he drops back of the LOS into zone coverage at 4:30. As to the age issue- if you took the entire DL class from this combine and re-tested them in 5 years I don't think that one player tops his combine numbers- 6-8, 277, 38 bench reps 4.6 40 yard dash, 34" vertical. Best triangle numbers out there, bar none He had an athletic advantage in college as he will in the pros, because he is a superior athlete. As to the bowl game sacks- yeah, I do care. Not just the sacks but the speed, quicks and power that he showed getting them. Bjoern Werner got half of his 2012 sacks in the 1st 3 games of the year against Murray St, Savannah St. and Wake Forest- were the OTs he went up against top notch? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that whatever Murray St. OT he went up against when he got 4 sacks won't be in the NFL any time soon. Werner got 1.5 sacks in the heart of the season after the 1st 3 cream puff games, not so hot. I like Werner, great 1st step, but one thing I didn't like was how he ran at the combine- not just the time of 4.84 or whatever, he just didn't look good running, no top gear. Personally I see Hunt getting nothing but better when he gets on a pro roster and I'd very much have him on the radar in the 2nd rd. I don't see another DE with as much potential except for maybe the injured Carradine. Really, what I was expecting to see was something more along the lines of William Gholston, but Hunt blows him out of the water. He has rare size, strength, speed and explosion as a DE,and I think that his ability will serve him well in the NFL. it's not just the great triangle/combine numbers, it's how he looks using them. Leverage, use of hands, can naturally bend the arc, all of that. Player on the rise imo, I do wish that he was a few years younger. I could really see this guy coming in as a pass rushing specialist and developing into qute a DE.
If you want to include his bowl game he had 8 sacks. The tackle he went against in that game was a kid who wasn't very highly thought of coming out of high school. As CK alluded to, he did this as a man against boys vs not exactly the toughest schedule. Yay for him. When I watch Margus I don't see 4.6 speed on the field. I see someone that does have a good first step but gets by on more of a bull rush. Something that won't come nearly as easy against NFL lineman. I also see someone that gets blown off of the ball because of his poor bad level. He also has a tendency to disappear for long stretches against inferior competition. Sorry but 6 sacks against SMU's schedule doesn't impress me
He also was abused at the Senior Bowl. Which is why people stopped talking about him. So he goes to the Senior Bowl against some of the better OTs in the Draft and looks like crap in practices and the game, and then he goes to the underwear olympics and looks great and gets popular again. One of these seems a little more relevant than the other...
Except now Weeden is on the replace list in Cleveland. Basically, Hunt did what he was supposed to do, dominate lesser opponents, the question then becomes for those smart ( and at least 4 to 5 are replaced every yr) GM's to decide his actual value as a draft choice. To me, there are worse rolls of the dice, but he screams 6th rd pick, maybe early 7th.
See, of all of that, the blocked kicks make him an interesting project, to make the gameday 45 man roster you have to offer something in that game, if he can beast on ST he can stick, but he also has to show some growth. Unless he is Brandon Adhjenbayo (sp) Jr who is just that good at ST, and even then he spent a yr or two in the CFL to get up to pro speed
Interesting point, but as I didn't see the Senior Bowl practices or Hunt in the game I really don't know, I'd like to see that film. I watched the good and the bad as per Hunt's game film, especially the Texas A&M video, and I see nothing that will keep him from becoming a productive pass rusher and complete DE. 3 tackles and a sack including 2 blocked kicks against A&M really isn't all that bad, and although Joeckel won that battle I thought that Hunt held up pretty well.
I'd doubt that jim1, and I like longshots as much as anyone, a #2 pick is expected to play and play quickly, on a poor team even #5's and #6's will play, he is just to raw tbh. IMO, 4th rd is the highest he comes off he board, more likely 6th rd, somewhere inbetween say pick 140ish to 212, at that point GM's roll the dice. Put it this way, what is his success path modeled on? What other 26 yr old, raw, players were taken in what rd who had success? Only guys who come to mind are Dan Henning, who wound up serving 4yrs in the air force before joining those great Cowboys teams, and he won an Outland Trophy iirc. Point to say..Cam Wake, and I'd point out he played 3 yrs at PSU and 2 in the CFL
Stiff as a board and can't get off a block. Perfect example of people soiling their shorts over a workout.
Maybe, there are reasons to like his skillset, not based on his workout per se, based on ST production. When you can find a player with physical upside who excels at ST, he is worth a shot, now if that is UDFA or late 4th rd, remains to be seen, do think he is worth a look though. for whatever reason, Vontaze Burfect is sticking in my head this year, maybe the absurdity of the system, but this cat and Honey Badger and of all players, Geno Smith, just are sticking with me as maybe guys who maybe can cheat that system.
I don't get the stiff as a board comment at all. He had problems disengaging against Joeckel, but who didn't. He certainly disengaged against OTs in other games, and I do think that his speed and power translate onto the field- given time and more experience I could see him developing into a very good all around DE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXIV8LYURsc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfuCP4BLkVo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgNUN-Sqj_Y As per the workouts, I'm even more curious how a player as big and fast as Cornelious Washington had all of 1/2 sack on the year. Loved him at the combines, liked him during the Senior Bowl game, curious as to where he was all regular season. Hunt's flaws and inexperience aside I like what I see on film, I could easily see him developing into a quality NFL DE. To me that speed and power are evident on film, I think that he would be a good DE and pass rusher opposite Wake, probably won't make it out of the 2nd round despite his advanced age.
Menelik Watson is a similar age and he probably won't last past the 2nd round either. I'm not looking at Hunt as a workout warrior- his combine performance led me to look at some of his film again, and I like what I saw. I see nothing that would prevent him from succeeding at the next level, top notch ability and he'll get better with time- he can walk into the NFL as a pass rushing specialist and go from there imo- you can't teach that strength, speed, height and agility- he's a fairly unique prospect. As to the players, I like who I like- Watson disappointed at the combine, but he looks awesome on film to me. I like Brandon McGee, Sanders Commings- what I will do is take anther look at thir film, and next on the agenda is trying to figure out how Cornelious Washington had only 1/2 sack all year. As to Hunt- solid 2nd rounder imo, I'll be very surprised if he lasts until the 4th, I just don't see that happening- your evaluation sounds more like what I would say of William Gholston, we all have our own opinions.
The kick blocks are the only thing I feel like I can be sure will translate at the next level. Other than that he plays like he's got a 2x4 shoved up his ***.
His skill set and triangle numbers will serve him well at DE, no need to worry about a move to TE. He's got better athletic tools than Ansah and he's twice the pass rusher, he'll do just fine in the NFL imo.
As I said in the Margus thread last month, he is unimpressive on tape. Above the waist, a lot to love. Below the waist, just... bad. And the two halves of his body don't seem to work together. CK has also detailed the level of competition issues. Boom, I agree. Workout warrior example.
Well, think about it this way, 250 or so ST plays every yr, can a GM justify drafting a player who really does not have a position, based on his ST performances? If so, in what rd? or UDFA? Can you see him on the gameday active roster? if so doing what job? IMO this is where measurables only run off the rails, when one watches film, what is the level of competition? If the level of competition is low, how much of a PHYSICAL advantage did that player have? Player like this, just compare his first step forward to the Tackles slide step, if he manages two steps before the Tackle takes one full slide step..you maybe have someone with quicks Hunt plays high, not much of a base, but has great closing speed, that is what stand out to me about his game.
I don't see him as being unimpressive on tape, nor the lower body issues. As a record holding junior shot putter and also a discus thrower I'm guessing that his lower half is just fine. He had a pretty good year to be called a workout warrior, and I do think that his elite athletic ability will translate into the NFL.
I don't see that at all. Look at how quick and powerful he is against a double team here at 7:18, damn near gets the sack. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgNUN-Sqj_Y Pretty good look of him here against Pitt as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXIV8LYURsc You just don't come across this type of speed at 6-8 280, nor the strength to produce 38 reps. To those who say workout warrior, I would say that the game film shows otherwise. Look at the lateral quickness he shows in the clip above at 2:55- there are no alimentary wood issues there, this guy can move. 3:05 - that's good stuff, then again at 3:28. A whole lot more about this kid than just blocked kicks will translate to the NFL, I don't really understand that comment at all. From what I've seen this kid has a bigger upside than Ansah, who can't rush a pocket passer to save his life at this point or Werner, who has average speed to go along with his average size and disappeared for half the year after feasting on weak competition.
You've watched him play and you don't understand the comments that say he's got a stiff middle? There's a point at which I would be comfortable rolling the dice on Margus Hunt. But it's not as early as you would take a guy that you see "becoming a productive pass rusher and complete DE". A guy that you make that statement about is someone you draft in the 2nd day of the Draft at the latest, if not the 1st round. The only things I know I can count on from Margus Hunt are him being a pass rush specialist from interior defensive tackle on nickel defenses, and a special teams kick blocker. That's it. And most teams don't really make use of a pass rush specialist on the interior on obvious pass downs. Let's examine these videos of yours and we'll start with the Pittsburgh game. On the second play in the video he makes a play on the quarterback. How did he do that? As an interior pass rusher on 3rd & 6. Let's look at what really happens on THIS play, which at first blush you may want to point to as proof he can disengage and get after the quarterback. He starts head up on the tackle, and he's neutralized. But the play calls for a screen to the back, and so what does the left tackle do? He disengages completely from Hunt and starts looking at the QB waiting for him to actually dish the ball to the back so he can run out and start blocking for him. Hunt didn't open his own way to the quarterback, he was let in after being neutralized. And with a free shot at the quarterback, he was too stiff to actually get hold of him. No flexibility there. None. Here is another play that is relevant to him becoming a 4-3 defensive end and rushing the passer that way. The explosion is there. Nobody's denying that. He's an explosive olympic caliber athlete. But that's not what Simon said. He said he's got no flexibility and he can't get off a block. He gets the tackle's outside shoulder and this is the point at which you get low and flexible and come back to the quarterback. But he can't sustain that low level, he's not flexible enough. He pops back upright and gets washed beyond the quarterback. And on the next play it's the same thing. Totally uncontrolled explosion, no flexibility to dip and bend the arc. And so he gets washed behind the QB. And then look at this play. He's neutralized, but the play gets extended and the quarterback breaks out of the pocket by dropping too far back and starting to roll left. Hunt uses the newfound advantage much as you'd see Demontre Moore, does a good job changing directions and giving chase to the quarterback. There's a point in the video the QB has his shoulders squared directly to Hunt and the ball up in the air like he's throwing it, and Hunt is a mere 3 yards away gaining steam. The quarterback is DEAD. Or at least, he should be. He easily evades Hunt. This isn't fricking RG3 here. This is Tino Sunseri, who runs in like the 4.9 to 5.0 range. But it goes back to the stiffness. Hunt is a straight line guy, like a defensive tackle. He can't make subtle movements to make sure he gets a guy down in situations like that, even when that guy starts at a severe disadvantage. Now, to show I'm not biased, I will say the plays I like are THIS ONE and THIS ONE. Really an excellent job against Greg Gaskins there. Unfortunately, Greg Gaskins wasn't even good enough to get an NFL audition as an undrafted free agent. Not really sure what ole "Guitar Greg" is doing nowadays but it sure ain't getting auditions with NFL football teams. The point about the level of competition isn't necessarily that Margus Hunt can't do anything against the likes of Luke Joeckel. The point is that his best and most impressive tape, the stuff people cite when talking about how this 26 year old admittedly still-raw football player has an NFL future, comes against guys that are REALLY BAD. Here are the series of Senior Bowl notes from someone I know, Eric Galko of Optimum Scouting. During the game itself he was controlled easily by Lane Johnson when they faced. It was embarrassing.
He looked good as a 26 year old with his man muscles in his athletic prime going against an 18 year old who was thrust into the starting job as a freshman after being the 732nd ranked recruit in the state of California and only months ago was fussing over his high school prom date. He also had a few nice plays against ole "Guitar Greg" Gaskins who was NFL Draft Scout's 73rd ranked GUARD prospect and got no offers to even audition with an NFL team.
Well, there was a fmr CFLer (John Chick) who started out with Indy after doing well in the CFL, they eventually he was let go and landed in Jaxville, where he was actually really effective until he shredded his knee. Hunt reminds me of him, only Hunt did show the talent to split a double team (thinking of the pitt highlights) But when you watch him, his back bows, his hands aren't alive, he does have decent instincts (imo) and he can close like a shark, his problem is, he has no sand in his bucket. I cannot see him whipping a bam block, then whipping a Fb, then making a play at this point in time. Other thing is, his feet don't stay alive, watch the guys considered to be "top" guys, Jordan and Mingo even Devalued Moore, their feet are always moving, Hunt starts/stops/starts. Also notice Tackles were taking short sets against him, which tells me he may be Gym strong, but on the field the book was short set, punch, he's done, a great prush prospect will literally stand/rock the Olineman on their front or back toes when they contact them. In that phase of the game, when the feet stop moving, you are done. OLmen then goes flat footed then they dispose of them all in less than .5 of a second
Red zone weapon maybe. Line up unbalanced with Johnson on the end of the line in a run heavy formation. Go play action and sneak him out on a short pattern. Like a 2nd or 3rd and goal from inside the 2 for example.
I was keying on Ansah in the game- honestly I still don't understand what all the fuss was about as per Ansah in that game, great work against TEs, air and Ricky Wagner. I'd like to see the film Hunt going up against Johnson, didn't see Hunt in that game at all. I also doubt that Ansah would have fared much better against Johnson than Hunt apparently did. The 1st play that you mention against Pitt- he had two players coming at his knees, I don't see that play as much evidence of inflexibility, and I don't recall referring to that play- I did refer to 3:28 where he blew past the OT #60 like he was standing still. As to the 2nd play on the clip- I don't see any real issue there- again, the guy is 6-8, he's not going to get as low as a 6-3 DE chasing a QB. Actually I think that Hunt usually bends the arc quite well, especially for a guy that big. Third play on the clip- yeah, a 6-8 DE lunged going up against a QB, no real surprise there. I doubt that you're going to see many 6-8 DEs with ideal quicks in that kind of situation as they chase much shorter QBs. I see your point, I just don't particularly agree. The man is 6-8, that normally comes with some limitations-he's not of the ideal size to track a much smaller player laterally, but I can live with that. There are plenty of example of his ability to disengage OTs and bend the arc- that's pretty much what you wanted to see in the 2nd play and didn't. This guy at 6-8 is not going to look like Cameron Wake getting low as he bends, bottom line, but there is plenty of evidence of him getting around OTs and to the QBs. I think that your inflexibility point is overblown, and saying that he can't disengage from OTs is a bit absurd. A better example imo of what you're trying to point out as per a lack of flexibity is the 1st play of the Fresno St clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgNUN-Sqj_Y I don't think that many 6-8 DEs are going to give you the flexibility you want, but Hunt's movement skills are evident and to me he uses his strength and speed quite well. I also think that his track & field success and 34.5" vertical are evidence of some significant capabilities as per lower body explosion. As to your comment about Hunt's level of competition this year- that's always a valid concern. I reviewed the plays and the bottom line is that he looked good to me, including the Fresno St sack where he blew up a double team to get a sack. That being said, I again wonder who Bjoern Werner faced at OT as he got 4 of his 13 sacks of the year against Murray State, plus his sack the following week against the immortal Savannah St. and the 1.5 sacks against Wake Forest to start the season, before he went sackless for 7 games in the heart of the season.
He is a heck of an athlete, if you're talking about Tackle eligible stuff and not a position switch I could go with that.
