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Dolphins have serious interest in WR Brandon Gibson

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Paul 13, Mar 10, 2013.

  1. UCF FINatic

    UCF FINatic The Miami Dolphins select

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    He is still like 25 years old though.
     
  2. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I agree. I wouldn't mind Gibson, but I wouldn't pay a lot for him.
     
  3. Zanno

    Zanno Junior Member

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    He was in Peter King's top 50 free agents, King thought he would be a fine Number 3
     
  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Davone Bess is a fine #3.
     
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  5. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Davone Bess is also a free agent next year.
     
  6. Hellion

    Hellion Crash Club Member

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    Here and there
    This morning I tossed an orange to my kid who then made a nice one handed catch, then the phone rang..:shifty: Evendently the Dolphins have serious interest in him.
     
  7. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    You've seen guys like Randall Cobb, Jacquizz Rodgers, Dexter McCluster, Russell Wilson, Darren Sproles, Brandon Banks, Jim Leonhard, Danny Woodhead, and our very own Marcus Thigpen break the sub-5'10 glass ceiling and you're still going by that archaic standard?

    It's not like the guy isn't built.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Then draft Ryan Swope, let him learn for a year under Bess, plenty of receiver talent in the draft to prepare.
     
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  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Good luck tackling Tavon Austin, don't care if they are high schoolers, college kids, or NFL players, it's all not good for defenders when you have that skillset, in that package.
     
  10. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    did you have this much contempt for Duper, Clayton, & Moore who were also 5'9?
     
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  11. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    I'm sure Bess would be ABSOLUTELY thrilled to teach his future replacement
     
  12. Ray Lucas

    Ray Lucas Member

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    Go big or go home. Why "overpay" for a mediocre WR when we can overpay for a stud receiver. Mike Wallace, Hartline, Bess, a solid TE, and a rookie 2nd-3rd round pick is golden.
     
  13. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    what does this have to do with DJ's post?
     
  14. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I think Swope's combine bumped him from low 3 high 4 territory up to mid 3. Considering we have 2 seconds and thirds, I'm fairly confident he'll be available after we pick 4 times.
     
  15. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I just don't like this move. The GM admitted on international television that we have 3's 4's and 5's. Adding another one of those players makes little sense. I'd prefer to see more of Matthews, Fuller, and Binns and stock up on top end talent.
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If Ryan is smart he will not have to ask..
     
  17. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Based on the number of middle-ish WRs in the draft, I could certainly see him available after our first 4 picks, but it wouldn't surprise me to see him go late 2 either.
     
  18. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Is there a chance we're playing Gibson against Wallace so that his agent's grip somewhat loosens on our balls?
     
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  19. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This notion that Gibson is being played aginst Wallace, or that Welker and Gibson are alternatives to Wallace is off base in my opinion. If Miami does not sign Wallace or Jennings, they will be looking for a guy that can stretch the field in the draft. Plain and simple. I think pursuit of Gibson is completely on its own a part from pursuit of Wallace.
     
  20. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Santana Moss was 7 lbs heavier and a quarter inch taller when he was drafted 16th overall in 2001. He's lasted pretty well, been pretty durable.
     
  21. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I agree with Lee on this. Sounds logical to me.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    First I'll get with some detailed observations and then I'll get to the overarching conclusions.

    I watched four games' worth of Coaches Tape. I did not choose them at random. I chose the two games where PFF gave him his highest scores for the game, and the two games with the lowest scores.

    Week 10 - St. Louis Rams @ San Francisco 49ers - 24-24 Tie (PFF Grade: -1.8)
    1. He's clearly not very fast or explosive. I didn't need to check his numbers coming out on NFL Draft Scout in order to see that. I could see it on the tape. Then after that, I check back and see what he did coming out, and at his home court during his WSU pro day he ran a 4.59 with a 34 inch vertical, 9'5" broad jump, 4.54 shuttle, 6.94 cone, all at 6003 and 206 lbs. All I'm saying is, I could've predicted these numbers based on the tape. He's easy to stay with deep, if the defensive backs are even inclined to. They're not so scared of his athleticism that they have to stop reading the quarterback. They keep reading the QB the whole way and are still able to feel Gibson and easily stay in the hip pocket.
    2. 4th quarter, 5:47 to go, 3rd & 10 the Rams' own 33 yard line. The 49ers show blitz, including the nickel defender, with 3 deep coverage pre-snap. Sam Bradford sees it and makes a check at the line. Gibson waves his hand in the air, probably to show he understands the check. His corner is playing off and Bradford tries to throw hot to Gibson, get the ball in his hands and let him do the rest with RAC. But Gibson doesn't cut off his route. He keeps running deep. Why?
    3. You can always pick out which guy is Brandon Gibson because he's the only one still with vestiges of his old high school style stance at the line. The problem is it's unbalanced, too much weight on the front foot. It makes him easy to cover by corners who start out closer to the line. He can be jammed more easily and his ability to shake the tight coverage with quick moves at the line is reduced. In my opinion the stance leads to having to take an extra step before he can execute an effective jab step or try and shake loose the tight coverage. He's more predictable that way, and much less effective trying to shake loose the coverage when he tries to make a move right off the line. He's been in the league for four years. If he's still using an unbalanced stance after all this time I would tend to doubt it's something you can fix.
    4. Another play against the 49ers he's not on the same page as his QB. He's trying to point out defenses while Bradford has clearly quickened the pace and is trying to get an early snap, wasn't ready when the ball was snapped.
    5. Good job creating separation on a comeback at 2:03 left in the 4th quarter against the 49ers, 2nd & 8, down 21-17. But situational awareness would've been nice. This coverage against this route should lead to run after catch opportunity, and indeed coming out of his break he had at least 5 yards separation in the red zone. The situational awareness I'm talking about is they're about to run into the 2 minute warning, the clock is going to stop anyway, so you don't have to go out of bounds to conserve clock. He had plenty of room to try and get at least 5 more years by turning inside, and those 5 yards inside the red zone can be important. And who knows, maybe you make the guy miss or break the tackle like Michael Crabtree did in the Super Bowl, and you waltz in for the winning score. We don't know because Gibson wasn't aware of the clock or the situation and chose to walk out of bounds after the catch.
    6. On a screen pass to Isaiah Pead in Overtime against the 49ers, he started openly blocking the DB beyond the 5 yard zone way too soon, ball still not out of Bradford's hands...on a play like that the refs could've thrown a flag.
    7. Got a 24 yard catch on a total "gimme" play. Last play of the game, Hail Mary situation essentially. Bradford checked underneath where there was all kinds of open space. Gibson showed a lack of clock awareness by running out of bounds after the catch with triple zeros left on the clock. Have to try and keep the play alive there.

    Week 13 - San Francisco 49ers @ St. Louis Rams - 16-13 Rams (PFF Grade: -2.4)
    1. As an example of something that I think is "ok", on another screen here he blocks the DB immediately off the snap but within the 5 yard zone. I don't think refs are throwing that flag.
    2. His head and shoulder fakes during the route aren't super effective. They seem slow and heavy handed.
    3. Still excels with comebacks. Nice subtle use of hands at the break to help create a little extra separation. The arm extended a little too much which flashes for the refs, but they won't call that 9 times out of 10. Ball didn't come his way but it was a nice route and nice amount of separation.
    4. Ineffective using his hands to create separation on the slant pattern, on this particular instance.
    5. Very rarely put into motion. Doesn't seem to have a knack for finding open spaces when they have done it.

    Week 6 - St. Louis Rams @ Miami Dolphins - 14-17 Dolphins (PFF Grade: +3.0)
    1. Nice speed out against off coverage. Nolan Carroll far too conservative here. Problem? Gibson didn't finish the catch. Juggled it as he was stepping out of bounds. Qualifies as a drop. Incomplete.
    2. When faced with Sean Smith, on two snaps in a row Smith is just absolutely dominating him physically. Not scared of Gibson's speed or quickness at all.
    3. Can give away his in-breaking routes too early, at times, as just happened with Nolan Carroll here.
    4. Nice play against Sean Smith this time though. Went to the well, a stop route (hitch), which is his strength. Makes Sean Smith miss after the catch too. Goes out of bounds a little too willingly IMO after making Smith miss. 15 yards.
    5. Nolan Carroll playing WAY off, ends up looking clueless, not relating his reading of the QB to his feel for the WR at all. Gibson runs a pretty common comeback, again his strength. 16 yards.
    6. Again Carroll playing way off, too much space. Bradford and Gibson connect on the slant. Good reach-back for a ball thrown behind. But the separation was a gimme. No RAC. 9 yards.
    7. When faced with tighter man coverage, in this case press, considerably less impressive. Carroll's jam disrupts, not creating separation, covered all the way even on his go-to comeback route.
    8. Did a good job near the goal line on a play finding the right spacing between the zones, from the perimeter.
    9. His fakes consistently don't seem to scare defenders too much, in this case Nolan Carroll on a bang-8 into the end zone. Head fake to the outside didn't work. Lack of athleticism showed, as Carroll closed the separation quickly.
    10. Again tight press man coverage with Nolan Carroll, no separation. Doesn't have the athleticism.
    11. Hit Sean Smith with a very nice fade-stop. This is Smith's weakness, when he doesn't bother to get his hands on a receiver. Caught the ball at 8 yards, created a nice bit of 7 yards after the catch before Smith took him down. 15 yards.
    12. Tried to run a deep hitch and fell on his butt during the break. Good thing the ball wasn't coming at him as this is a timing route.
    13. Again Nolan Carroll's press man coverage giving him more of a hard time than Smith's because Carroll is more diligent with his technique, getting his hands on him.
    14. On the other hand when Sean Smith bothers to use his hands (so inconsistent), again you can just blot Gibson off the map altogether on this shake route.
    15. Really nice post route there, got into high gear very quickly off the snap and makes a smooth cut inward without any useless jive. Carroll started in off coverage and got twisted up in knots. You wish you'd see this from him more often. No ball.
    16. Effective slant route against Nolan Carroll, who gave up the inside on his press coverage. 8 yards.
    17. Of course now he's back to too much jiving on the route against Sean Smith. Smith covers him easily.
    18. Nolan Carroll learns his lesson. They show the slant again in the end zone, but this time Carroll envelopes Gibson.
    19. Breath taking catch on a back shoulder throw against Nolan Carroll. Amazing one-hander. The problem for me is it didn't need to be. He had to turn this into an amazing catch because he was late in his reaction to the back shoulder throw, either because he didn't know it was coming or because he didn't find it in the air. But for having to react last-second like that, pretty incredible that he came down with this ball in bounds. 22 yards.
    20. Another decent speed out, goes out of bounds right away. Carroll giving up a lot of room based on the game situation. No RAC. 6 yards.
    21. No separation on Carroll on the dig route he runs on the final play where Olivier Vernon closed out the game with a sack. Bradford was looking for him. Wasn't open.

    Week 14 - St. Louis Rams @ Buffalo Bills - 15-12 Rams (PFF Grade: +3.8)
    1. Flashes the nice hands at the break in order to create an extra bit of separation, but not great overall ability there.
    2. Again showing a tendency to give the in-breaking routes away.
    3. Easily covered on the deep route by Ron Brooks. Again too much jive, not effective. Was enough of a mismatch it could've been an interception. Left no cushion for Bradford on the route.
    4. Ron Brooks playing really far off deep coverage and Jairus Byrd is supposed to have the underneath but he's too slow. Good read by Bradford throwing quick here. Bad job by Gibson on RAC. Goes out of bounds willingly yet could've had RAC if he'd just make a play here. 10 yards.
    5. Not exactly noting every play here, more good coverage on a few plays here...slants, digs, etc. On the broadcast footage they're showing a lot of montage stuff of the receivers (incl. Gibson) not getting open, getting jammed, etc...which is leading to Bradford's sacks an ineffective overall offense.
    6. Single coverage with Leodis McKelvin. Runs a deep comeback, slips and falls down on the break. Good thing Sam Bradford threw it high to make it incumbent on Gibson to go up and get it. That's the kind of mistake that results in INTs.
    7. Good use of hands to create separation on Ron Brooks on the slant. No RAC. Falls down immediately. Only gets 5 yards on a 3rd & 6.
    8. Ran a nice slice-in route against Stephon Gilmore. Caught the ball at about 12 yards and created 10 more yards after catch. Did more unnecessary jiving after the catch.
    9. Beautiful back shoulder catch on Ron Brooks. His stance was more balanced before the snap, to the point I almost couldn't pick him out on coaches tape. This helped him make a lot more quick and effective move off the line to get some separation on the fade. Tracks and reacts to the throw much better this time than the one-hander against Miami. Text book.
    10. Runs a sideline fade from the slot against Stephon Gilmore, who gets completely crossed up by the pre-snap motion of a WR that motions outside of Gibson and then runs a screen route. Gilmore loses it on the play, bites on Bradford's ball fake on the screen and lets Gibson go completely. 24 yards.
    11. A rare play where Gibson is put in motion, uses a double move to get out to the sidelines for a back shoulder fade pass. Too much going on, on the play. Can't pull in the accurate pass.
    12. Nice challenged catch here on the comeback. Doesn't create any separation against Ron Brooks. Bradford comes to Gibson late as he's a 3rd option. Gibson keeps working back to the QB, uses body to shield the ball well. 15 yards in critical situation.
    13. On the other hand he's being erased by Ron Brooks on slant routes.
    14. Nice touchdown play to finish off a critical drive. Ron Brooks stays in his back pedal too long and gives up the inside to Gibson on the shake. But again I find myself with some minor nits. For one thing with Gibson's athleticism he can't maintain the separation. Brooks closes the gap and makes this a physically contested ball that Gibson has to use his body to shield. For another Gibson pulled a Calvin Johnson. He went to ground with the football in his hands and then tossed it at the official within a fraction of a second of having fallen. In virtually the same situation, Calvin Johnson was infamously denied a touchdown because of that sort of thing. You've got to show the refs that you've maintained full control of the football throughout the process of the catch including going down to the ground.

    Final Thoughts:
    I took a long look at Domenik Hixon as one of the free agents in this WR class and I came away very impressed. To me, watching Hixon was eerily reminiscent of when I was putting together video of Brian Hartline after the 2011 season. All Hartline needed to be more productive was more opportunity. Hartline clearly had his limitations in the strength and after catch departments, and if he didn't improve on those things he was never going to be a truly ideal starter at the wide receiver position, but he could be a lot more productive if he was given opportunities and I think the same is true of Domenik Hixon. Brandon Gibson does not fall into that category. But, neither does he quite fall into the Legedu Naanee "total waste of space I have no idea why this guy even plays professional football" category. Gibson is capable of making plays with his hands and even though he does very little after the catch, he does more than Naanee.

    But Gibson's weaknesses as a player are many. He has no real athleticism to speak of and this means that good corners are able to stay in his hip pocket. It's no coincidence that he had terrible games against the 49ers who had good cover corners, and his best games of the year came against Miami where he was able to face up on Nolan Carroll primarily, and the Bills when he was able to go against Ron Brooks who (in addition to being a rookie), wasn't even a starter at LSU last year. He doesn't help himself much by starting off most of his routes with an off balance stance with too much weight on his front foot. He seems to do a little better off the line when he's a little more balanced. But it's like a quarterback that knows he needs to keep his elbow up during his throws, but falls into bad habits when pressed. He's four years into the league. His habits probably are what they are, at this point. He does a lot of unnecessary shucking and jiving during the route which probably worked better in man coverage back in college but in the NFL he needs to show more urgency. Yet he probably does it because he's slow and he knows if he doesn't get guys to bite, he's toast anyway. He does give away some of his routes. After the catch, he's not much to speak of. He goes out of bounds willingly. There's no real fight in him in that regard. Averaging 2.2 yards after catch in 2012 was not circumstantial, nor a random effect of small sample size. That's about what he is. He seems practically useless on deep verticals, almost Davone Bess useless. The best you're going to get there is a back shoulder opportunity. He also is a weakness running longer routes across the width of the field. The more you're asking him to run, the weaker he is. He's not that athletic.

    There's a slightly disturbing pattern of lack of awareness which leads me to wonder how intelligent he is. It might be worth checking into how he was viewed that way coming out of the Draft by people who interviewed him. The fact that he was so rarely put into motion with the Rams, and that he generally did poorly on those occasions when they did put him into motion, leads me to wonder if the Rams knew they couldn't put much onto his plate mentally, which is something we'd heard about Chad Johnson back in Cincinnati. The irony is starting out his route while in motion and therefore not getting into that stance of his probably plays most strongly into his ability to create separation at the line. He did create a good bit of separation on that back shoulder attempt against Ron Brooks when he started the route from motion, he just couldn't finish the play. The awareness issues range from situational/clock awareness, to brain fart decision making, to not being on the same page with Sam Bradford on a blitz read, to not executing when given too much to do and read on the play, to falling down on his break. There's a mistake factor here.

    On the plus side, the routes he consistently runs the best are comebacks and other stop routes. You don't necessarily want him running a bunch of these against press, because he can be erased in press. However when it's not press, he does a good job on these routes. He uses his hands at the top of his break to create a little extra separation. He also has shown the POTENTIAL for making plays on the back shoulder fade. I say potential because there were three back shoulders that I saw in the sampling, and I didn't particularly like aspects of two of them. That one-hander against Miami was absolutely superb and indicative of the kind of hands he has. What it wasn't necessarily indicative of, was his ability to be on the same page with his quarterback and to spot the ball in the air and react to it as you should on the back shoulder throw. On the other hand, he did all of that right on the final back shoulder play in the sampling, with the only problem being...he didn't come down with the football. Polar opposites. One play he didn't do much right until he bafflingly managed to come down with a one-hander in the final split second, another play he did everything right until he just couldn't haul in the ball. The third play against Ron Brooks, he did everything right, period. So he's got potential here.

    Overall this is not a player I have much interest in unless it's for a very low contract amount. It's not that I have an issue paying him, it's that I have an issue with clogging the position with him. The very last thing I want is the signing of a Brandon Gibson to affect my free agency or Draft strategy at that position. If I sign Brandon Gibson, I want to still head into the Draft with the exact same mindset as I would if I hadn't signed Brandon Gibson. And in free agency, if I'm 100% gung-ho about signing Mike Wallace to a $12.5 million a year deal (which seems really scary to me), then I want to have that exact same attitude even if I did sign a Brandon Gibson. If signing Brandon Gibson has ANY effect on either my Draft or Free Agent strategy...then I want no part of it.
     
  23. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think he deserves Hartline money, and as I said before, he is probably a 4th or 5th receiver to me. However, as you said, it doesn't change my aggressiveness in pursuing Wallace or in looking at the draft.
     
  24. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's leaving St Louis because he wasn't want to be, or be paid, like a 3 or a 4.

    So hopefully that means he's not coming here. I like him. But with Hartline and Bess still on the team I don't see a need for him for that kind of money.
     
  25. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    So I just realized I've been mistaken Gibson with GIVENS.

    Givens is the guy who went like 4 straight games with a catch of 50 yds or more...yea screw Brandon Gibson.
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Haha. Impossible to mistake the two on coaches tape. Even if for some reason you spot out Chris Givens and think it's really Brandon Gibson, you know immediately after the snap that it's Givens and not Gibson. Givens just moves at way different speed.
     
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  27. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I seriously don't see why the hell we'd want to pay 2 possession receivers 50-60 million smackeroos who can be easily replaced in the draft. That'd be a terrible appropriation of money. I'd officially jump on the anti-Irland bus if that's what our receiving corps looks like come camp. StLouis (and the rest of the NFL) has been talking about the need to get Bradford better weapons, and here we are allegedly thinking one of their castoffs could be one of our answers, and the Rams 2012 receiver cast, as bad as it was, was still better than what we'd have with Hartline, Gibson, and Bess. Oy vey.
     
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  28. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    I didn't look at anything that was the problem, lol. Just thought I remembered the right name.
     
  29. CANDolphan

    CANDolphan Well-Known Member

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    I'm really struggling to view this as anything but a head scratcher. If they sign him to anything but veteran minimum then I'm questioning just what the hell Ireland is looking at out there.
     
  30. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    That's pretty much an unrealistic stance for most FAs.
     
  31. CANDolphan

    CANDolphan Well-Known Member

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    Actually, if you want to go by averages, you're far more likely to sign a guy for 1, 1.5 million a year max (isn't that roughly FA Vet Minimum?) than you are for the 5-6 million a year.
     
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I watched the same four games, all his reps, and I agree, what worries me and the contract numbers were hearing is his best game was against the dolphins, and our coaches and front office was up close and center for the pretty good performance..

    He is not a better route runner than Bess, not better hands, and not smarter on the field,he's got a bit more ability to play on the boundary than Bess, he's taller, has a durable thick frame, he's very enthusiastic, plays with a lot of energy, good teammate, and can play in this league, but I would not trade Bess for him relative to that contract, so why add him..The only answer is we are not interested in signing one of the big two, only interested in signing one midline free agent while we go full metal jacket in the draft on offensive skillset players..which I'm not opposed to doing.
     
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  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I agree with this. I see Brandon Gibson on the free agent market as more likely to make Legedu Naanee money than Brian Hartline money.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    To me the idea that we would trade Davone Bess because of the presence of Brandon Gibson is so ludicrous that I don't even consider it a legitimate possibility, even for a front office I find myself disagreeing with seemingly 7 times out of 10.

    I think they would have to view Brandon Gibson as sort of a #4 guy. And that alone concerns me because it would impact not only Rishard Matthews but also the Dolphins draft strategy. That makes very little sense to me.
     
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  35. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Many players who get vet minimum still get some type of bonus, even if it is only like $2,500-$20,000.

    And for minimum to be over $1M you have to be like a 6 or 7 yr vet I think. I think the minimum for like a 4 year guys is somewhere in the $600s.

    I'm well aware that most players don't get $5M/yr+ though.
     
  36. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension
    Gibson no, if they get Jennings/Wallace and take wr with one of their top picks, I say yes. If Wallace is indeed their #1 on their want list I'm on the phone with Green Bay and gauging their interested in a Bess for Finley trade.
     
  37. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that. Just saying that the goal here might be to replace Bess a year early. I still don't like it, and would prefer Swope, but still.
     
  38. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I don't see an issue if Miami signs Gibson. I think he can be a solid acquisition for them.
     
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  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Gibson is a good route runner. I wouldn't mind him at all.
     
  40. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    If Gibson is inept in the slot as CK thinks, I don't think giving him any significant money would make sense.
     

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