How convenient, so the "tackle in first rd" regardless of where they were taken, then "not recently" Impressive, it also means that 7 have and don't win games.
If that was directed towards my question, it didn't really answer it. I'm not talking about where the tackles were grabbed yet, I want to know if the difference between great and average in LT play can be objectively quantified.
Basically, about 3 pressures or sacks given up per game. That is the difference, compare that to TO's or TD's and their effect on winning.
Bull****. An offense, including its playmakers, isn't doing crap if it can't protect the QB or adequately block in the ground game. An offense of playmakers without an oline is like **** on a bull. horse=trenches cart=playmakers Not sure why you're putting the cart before the horse.
Why can't we look at our own past and the struggles at left tackle. One only has to look at Wade Smith at LT and how very bad he was. Granted, we didn't have a very good quarterback but Wade Smith's play certainly didn't help any. Franchise left tackle may be a misnomer but you do need a good lineman playing the position to keep your quarterback upright. Maybe a good left tackle wont make your quarterback or running back any better but a bad left tackle will definitely create problems for your quarterback and make your team look pretty foolish for taking the position for granted.
Martin allowed a pressure,(sack, hit or hurry) on 10.3% of pass pro snaps. Albert allowed a pressure on 4.4% of pass pro snaps. Approximately 6% better.
If that's how you choose to look at it. Do me a favor and shake your head to see if a screw falls out. I just showed you that every playoff team plus 10-6 Chicago invested a 1st in tackle in the recent past. Meanwhile no team finished with a winning record that didn't invest a 1st in a tackle. ....yet in the face of these facts you're still attempting to postulate it's ok to ignore tackle? Let's see here, if you're attempting to say tackle doesn't matter b/c 7 of 16 sub .500 teams spent a 1st on tackle and still don't win, then what's that say about ALL 16 sub. 500 teams that have recently invested at least one 1st in a playmaker and still doesn't win? Looks like your argument is firmly entrenched in quicksand. BTW, where do you get "not recently" from?
Can just point to a few teams: 1) Green Bay's offense played at a lower level last year partially due to the fact that their piss poor pass protection didn't give Rodgers the same amount of time as the previous year 2) Joe Flacco was very successful because he had arguably the best pass protection in the league 3) San Francisco's really good Oline was a very good reason for their success 4) Brady had all the time in the world because he had 2 stud tackles protecting him all season
Yes, at guard but he was a turnstile at left tackle often getting pushed back into the quarterback by his man. He was a bad left tackle in Miami and his career at left tackle seemed to have ended in Miami.
That's an additional 3+ sacks & pressures on top of what you're already allowing, and that's just from 1 player. Unfortunately the line is comprised of 5, so you need to extrapolate it out to account for an entire line of average guys since that's what you feel is adequate. Math, I passed it. Before you know it the protection becomes a damn sieve if we deemphasized the position the way you prefer. You should ask Philip Rivers what life is like without good tackle play!! Not to mention, many of these pressures & sacks occur during obvious passing situations like 3rd down, so how well are you scoring TDs when you can't stay on the damn field b/c you can't consistently move the chains? And it's a fool's errand to think those extra sacks & pressures don't prevent TDs nor cause TOs.
He was our Right Tackle mostly and he was mediocre, not a turnstile. He was just questionable whether he was worth the money to keep him
and that's just one guy. It's kinda funny that Padre is arguing it's ok to have average linemen b/c of how one guy supposedly makes little difference in his eyes, but he's clearly missing the fact an offensive line is comprised of 5 guys. So he needs to also factor in those other 4, add it all together, and then figure out a way to tack on some type of compounding affect it's bound to happen when grouping 5 average linemen together. BTW, what's the difference in pressures allowed between Pouncey and an average center?
Sometimes people forget how terrible the OL was before they drafted Jake. It was horrible. Whomever was QBing for the team, it was like they took one to two step drops and then....smash!! Constantly. It was impossible to get anything going for any QB. Remember, during those days of all of the "Matt Ryan or any other QB would have gotten killed behind that OL" quotes? They were very true. Some forget how it really was before.
If your a Qb and you don't have confidence that your left tackle is great, you start having phantom pressures, which can destroy the mind of your Qb, and ruin the timing of your offense.. You attack your opponents with the players that are better than the others, look at how the niners design offense around Staleys athleticism.
The Chiefs really had the right idea draft the best LT and move Albert to guard where hes familiar with but you cant argue with albert wanting LT money. Now that it seems they are going to trade him you cant help but say what a horrible way for reid to start his tenure.
So do tell me of the wonders of Chad Henne when a healthy Jake Long was manning LT? Uhm, yeah. The ball must come out of their hand more quickly, there is no way around it, and that requires..wait for it..skill, balls, and talent. Put it this way, Brandon Albert played LT for Matt Cassel, how did that turn out?
Seriously, Larry Fitz is amazing but because they had such crappy line play he had his worst year ever. Yes his QBs sucked because they got hi on every other play and were always in 3rd and long. Lets not just look at a LT for pressures but also running plays. Crappy LTs suck at run blocking which put pressure on the offence and into long 2nd and 3rd down situations. Which now depends on plays and Qbs holding the ball longer to complete and more pressures. You can have the most dominant line ever but if everyone else sucks your still in trouble. but it works in reverse as well. Just think if Stafford had .2 sec longer each play, or Rivers? Their stats would rise. You need to have a top 15 linemen at least to be a productive offence. Albert will get a contract like Beatty maybe just under around 7 mil/yr. Not the 9 every keeps quoting or he won't be in Miami, at least thats what I think.
really flacco is where we are going now with protection his left tackle is on the market atm and no one wanted him last year also
Pouncey was tied for 1st in PBE last season with Stefen Wisniewski. Mike allowed a pressure on 1.2% of pass pro snaps. For comparison, here are some other big name centers: Alex Mack allowed a pressure on 2.1% of pass pro snaps. Nick Mangold on 2.3%. They both allowed the same number of pressures, 13, but Mack had 618 snaps, and Mangold had 553. Pouncey allowed 7 in 553. His brother allowed 11 in 454 for 2.4%.
I do not recall Wade Smith ever playing RT for Miami. He started 16 games as a rookie, 2 the next season and that was it as for starting games for the Dolphins. I'm pretty sure those 16 rookie starts were all at LT.
So it is Joe Thomas's fault the Browns have had 2 disappointments at QB during his time there? You seem to be making that correlation.
haha. Yup, it's Thomas's fault McCoy was destined for failure. Not certain why but I'm sure Padre will tell us here shortly. I guess I missed the part where you and I have been arguing that a great left tackle can alter the DNA of his QB.
BTW, out of 27 centers, last year, Mangold and Maurkice were tied for 14th in PBE, so they are the median.
Why are we trying to get Albert from KC or trade up for Joeckel, Fisher or Johnson? Because having a good LT is no better than having an average one, that's why.
Wrong Wade, you are thinking of Todd Wade the RT, not Wade Smith the LT who Freeney abused (and just about everyone else). It's a real kick in the nut sack to see what a good guard Smith has turned into.
I don't think it's nonsense to want to have a player who can, one-on-one, match up with the one player on the opposing team (usually the RDE or ROLB) whose primary job it is to disrupt the play of your quarterback in the passing game.
Well, you could be closer to right than most NFL folks want to admit, but some have to justify the salaries they've given their LTs. The thing is, with the ZBS, you don't have to always have that stud LT and we clearly are working towards that goal, but are we there yet ?? I don't think so... RI is our best guard and certainly is a liability in the ZBS. Martin is going into his second year and hasn't settled into a spot. JJ, up to now, hasn't been able to control his weight and who exactly is our RT/LT combo.... I'm not saying that you have to have an elite guy at LT (like a healthy Long, Clady, Thomas, etc), but you have to have someone who is better than what we've seen from the guys on the roster to this point.... Is Yeatman capable of stepping in at RT and is that what they are banking on ?? Don't know. I can't possibly see anything more than a capable backup swing tackle in Garner. Where exactly is Martin now ?? He was uncomfortable at RT, that was apparent. May have been a tad better after having to switch late in the season to LT, but is he capable of being our LT ?? Can you honestly tell me you think Yeatman, JJ, Pouncey, RI, Martin are better than Martin, JJ, Pouncey, RI, Long ?? Even a less than the 2008-2010 Long ?? I think you still need a LT that anchors your line, even in the ZBS...It's true the roots of the ZBS come from not having great OL, but scheming to your strengths and away from your weaknesses, but it can only to so much...
I honestly don't know what a "Franchise" LT is? Is it just a buzzword, or us it because you have put the tag on him? As to the premise of the thread, LT doesn't have to be the best player on your team, hut he sure as hell better not be the worst, in fact, he better be well above the median. QB's longevity gets cut short from repeatedly getting blindsided. IF you value the QB position, you'd sure as hell better value the talent you have at LT. Common sense actually.
Same could be said of any position, why then overpay for a LT? At some point it becomes clear that unless your Qb can play it really does not matter who is playing LT. As for "wr's make the Qb" Anyone recall Marshall making Henne a better Qb? Did Jake Long make Henne a better Qb?
