You can say that about every position if you want to, so you might as well argue it's ok to have a team full of average players. Bottom line is QB is the most important position on the field, now more than ever with the rules shifted to favoring the offense, so don't tell me it shouldn't be a priority to build a strong pass pro line responsible for protecting these 9 figure QBs and ensure optimal efficiency from the passing game. You wanna mention LT and Super Bowl teams, then how about also mentioning how Brady lost a few shots at Super Bowls b/c his oline couldn't keep him upright in the playoffs. NE subsequently drafted Solder in the 1st round BTW. Funny that same quality Steelers organization you mentioned has invested two 1st and two 2nd rounders on oline the past 3 years.... and let's see if that Giants team doesn't spend a 1st on Fluker. You make it sound so simple, as if you can just mosey on up to the offensive tackle isle and pick out the specified "good ones" so that you don't have to pay extra for greatness. Too bad the draft isn't remotely like that. If you're in need of a left tackle you can't just say, "eh, let's skip the potentially great ones who should at the very least be good reliable players b/c we can take one later on who just may turn out to be good". You're not necessarily paying for or spending a high pick on greatness BTW; you're investing in a high round player b/c he has an extremely high chance of being good enough to perform his job, especially against defenders that are becoming faster & more athletic, whereas a tackle drafted later has a greater chance of becoming a turnstile and a liability to the offense. If you need Oline help you invest the pick in a player who gives you the best chance at addressing the issue rather than a guy you hope will be able to address it. Not sure why you think it's any different than other positions in that regard.
I like how some posters complained about us investing numerous 2nd round picks on QBs who never worked out rather than spending a 1st on the position in a better attempt to fix it outright, but now advocate throwing minimal resources into Oline hoping that perhaps it pans out and we build a unit worth a damn. Sounds hypocritical to me.
He uses the word "franchise" and "cornerstone" in his title and his post. It is not that hard to figure out what he's talking about. His second post says his caveat is that an LT can also be hot garbage (i.e. the hot mess that is Columbo). It is exactly his argument. He said you don't spend $9 million and a top pick for. He didn't say you should use $50 and a bag of popcorn. A few posts later he says you need average and don't need excellent at LT. It doesn't take a genius to put his argument together.
Id rather have an average line and excellent QB and skill offensive players. Once you have the QB and WR/TE/RB set, and you have a bunch of picks, sure, go upgrade the line. There are 5 units in a line. You can spend a #1 pick overall on the left tackle and have problems with your o line for 5 years. Oops that just happened to us. Meanwhile you have Bess and Hartline running routes. Jeff Ireland just let his #1 overall pick go and paid tens of millions for WRs this offseason. That's because he wasn't that great in drafting them. I think pretty good is good enough, especially with a mobile QB like we have. Paddy is saying, let's get Duane Brown (26th overall) instead of Thomas/Long. Bottom of 1, top of 2 is where he said tackles should be drafted. Hell, we had Vernon Carey who only allowed 3 sacks in 2007 before a #1 overall on Jake Long. New England, famous for protecting Mr. Brady, went a decade (2000-2011) only drafting Mankins at 32 for olinemen in the first round. Patriots is the only team since 2001 consistently in the playoffs or contending almost every year. Maybe he's on to something, that Belichick guy.
He can say it, but the question is can he prove it, or even field an argument that is anything other than alleging that the NFL is too behind the standards he invented?* The quote he started the thread over is an intrinsically different argument if he recognizes it or not. *No.
Sorry forgot that Ireland is the greatest GM ever and every move we've made has worked out and we have won the last 5 Superbowls. My bad.
An easy counterpoint: we now have our QB, we have our TE (0although we need to draft a 2nd), we now have a much better WR corps. We need to be patient and let Martin develop at tackle, but we still need a 2nd tackle. We have cap space, why wouldn't you sign what could be an elite LT (barring a collapse due to injury). Despite the argument, nothing anyone says can counter the point that an elite LT can provide our weapons a little more time to score. You guys can break down the stats to show that it may only be the difference between a few sacks/pressures a game, but that can be the difference between 1 or 2 drives resulting in a FG or TD, which in this league, is huge.
Given the Dolphins current personnel situation, I'm not sure what the problem is in selecting OL, more specifically Tackle with #12 overrall. Over the past 12 months they've filled their positional needs for QB, TE, WR, LB, S(R. Jones), 1 CB (Grimes). Assuming Ireland and most GMs select BPA at position of need, what positions are we in the market for at #12? I'd say OT, CB, DE, OG, in that order. Are people really going to be upset if we, for example, take Lane Johnson over Xavier Rhodes? That would be ridiculous, IMO. It would just be whining over personal preference.
I stole this list from another board 1. Houston Texans: Duane Brown 1st Round (8.9 MillPer Yea) (Made The Playoffs) 2. Cincinatti Bengals: Andrew Whitworth 2nd Round (9.7 Mill Per Year) (Made The Playoffs) 3. Washington Redskins:Trent Williams 1st Round (10 Mill Per Year) (Made The Playoffs) 4. Seattle Seahawks: Russell Ogung 1st Round (8 Million Per Year) (Made The Playoffs) 5. San Francisco 49ers: Joe Stalley 1st Round (7 Mill Per Year) (Made The Playoffs) 6. Atlanta Falcons : Sam Baker 1st Round (6.8 Mill Per Year) (Made The Playoffs) 7. Minnesota Vikings : Matt Kalill 1st Round (4.5 Mill Per Year On His Rookie Deal, new CBA Rules) (Made The Playoffs) 8. New England Patriots: Nate Solder 1st Round (2.1 Million Per Year On His Rookie Deal, new CBA Rules)(Made The Playoffs) 9. Indianapolis Colts: Anthony Castonzo 1st Round (2.0 Million Per Year On His Rookie Deal, new CBA Rules) (Made The Playoffs) 10.Denver Broncos : Ryan Claddy 1st Round (9.8 Million Per Year) (Made The Playoffs) Including the Ravens, with Bryant Mckinnie,Who was once a first rounder all but two playoff teams had a first round Left Tackle! Green Bay (NewHouse 5th Round) Bengals (Whitworth 2nd Round) This is the most important info of all. Everyone wants to say Albert isn't worth 7mil/yr or a 2nd round pick. Look at that list and how much they get paid, where they were drafted and if their teams made the playoffs. After seeing that list I pray we can get him for a 3rd and a will Beatty contract which by the way was 7.5mil/yr. some of you have delusions that we can just stick anyone over there. Do you notice all the teams with franchise QBs want to protect them? Even GB grab Buluga in the first a few years back. Tackles are important stop thinking they aren't. The professionals show us different.
It's not that simple. You say this as if it's easy to go out and find an excellent QB. Even if you were correct, and I don't believe there's a correct order either way, we don't have an excellent QB. We have Tannehill. So the real question is how best to put a good offense on the field with Tanne at QB. IMO it's to give him a consistent running game, solid protection, and allow him to ease his way into things. Bess and Hartline are no longer out top WRs so I think your last point has been overtaken by events. Clearly Ireland hasn't prioritized taking WRs in the draft and it bit us in the *** last year. Enter Wallace, Gibson, and Keller. Miller is expected to come in and start for Bush. The only position where we have a gaping hole is at OT. We'll need do address it via trade or early in the draft to have even a decent OL. I'd like to go all in and shoot for an OL that can be borderline dominant, the way our defensive line is. Tannehill has good straight line speed but he still has a lot to learn about pocket awareness and evading pressure. I'd rather not send him out there behind an average line and have him play dodge the defender. No, Paddy is playing the result, as he often does. Notice he didn't say let's get Roger Saffold, Sam Baker or Bryan Bulaga. I'd also point out that Fisher, Joeckel and Johnson are all predicted to go in the top 10. So what does Paddy know that the professionals don't? Must be the PFF stats. I can guarantee you not a single team in the league gives a rat's *** what they say. You're right. Belichek was onto the opposing team's offensive signals . FYI BB has spent SEVEN 1st or 2nd round picks on the secondary in the past 5 years and has still had one of the worst pass defenses in the league for several years. Meriwether, Chung, Wheatley, Butler, McCourty, Dowling, Wilson. And who was starting at CB for them when they got bounced outta the playoffs this year? A 7th round rookie and a guy they traded for mid season. Talk about throwing resources at a position and not getting results. Chung, Meriwether and Butler are all gone. If Ireland had a record like that at any position there'd be a million threads on it. Wins and losses, that's all it comes down to for most. Win and all sins are forgiven, lose and every move is a blunder. It's not that simple.
Maybe a little off topic but why would anyone want to give up two of our top three picks to move up and draft a rookie tackle, give KC #54 for Albert and be done with it, thus allowing you to pick your two best players at #12 and #42.. Walk out of this draft with Brandon Albert Tyler Eifert Dj Hayden.. Whatta you gonna get moving up?.... Not that I can tell ya.
For me the issue would be cost. If we draft a LT we can pay him peanuts for a few years and use the Albert money on re-signing Jones, Grimes, Keller, Starks, Soliai, or whoever we want to bring back. I also believe Grimes and Keller have reduced the need for going after a CB or TE early, at least for this season. We haven't added any OTs as of yet and we lost the best one we had. OT is clearly priority one. Not saying we definitely grab one, Ireland may not like the guys available, or he may be head over heels for a guy like Eifert or Haden. I'm just saying that protecting the QB trumps getting more corners or TEs IMO.
Why did we not just keep Jake Long!!!!!! I thought it was because of the money?? Now we want to get a guy that costs just as much, is older, AND costs us a high draft pick? If they do end up dong this they better have a good plan for the cap, because it's really hard to believe we won't have cap problems. This may be Ireland going all out this season to save his job and screw up later seasons. AND... What happend having our own home grown players step up? This really is becoming a dream team scenario. Haha... I apparently really don't like this
Long isn't as good as Albert on a zone blocking line. Long was the 21st ranked tackle in pass block efficiency while Albert was 9th.
to give them the benefit of the doubt, which isn't required here, they did try to resign Long, just didn't want to overpay for him. Assuming Albert probably is a better player (when healthy) in this system. When a new coach takes over a 6-10 team, he wants to remake it to fit his system to give him the best chance to win. We can certainly make someone like Long fit into the system to an extent, but perhaps Philbin justs feels Albert can excel in this system. #54 is a tough pick to give up, but we still have two higher picks, not the end of the world
Other thing is, the difference b/t mediocre and consider "franchise" over 16 games is laughably small in terms of better performance IIRC it was something like 1.2 more pressures per game, not sacks, but pressures And allow me to point out for Mr Phinsational, even the Browns went 10-6 one year under Romeo Crennel, if one looks at the 08 draft class with a massive tackle draft of 7 or 8 first rd picks, most are playing on teams with losing records since they were drafted. And do also notice, until the Redskins drafted RG3, their high pick LT meant jackola in terms of winning football games, it's fairly obvious that the Qb makes the LT, the LT does not make the QB.
Just for sh!ts and giggles, I added up the pass pro snaps for both Albert and Jake, and also their combined pressures for their entire careers. Albert, 2502 pass pro snaps, 156 combined pressures, 6%. Jake, 2511 pass pro snaps, 110 combined pressures, 4% Jake was substantially better over the first 3 years, and Albert better over the past 2 years. Just for comparison, Duane Brown has 2651 pass pro snaps, 180 combined pressures, 6.7%
If the Skins had a mediocre type of LT then all of RG3's ability would have meant "jackola" too. Granted it is a waste of a good LT to have him pass blocking for a mediocre QB, but it is also tremendously risky to have a mediocre LT pass blocking for your franchise QB.
Aren't you making the opposite argument here? Washington's LT didn't matter until they had a QB...oh and they made the playoffs once they got a QB who got good protection from said high-pick LT who gave nice pockets and running lanes. (And like in post #130, there's a trend there w/ playoff teams.) Miami now has a QB who's worth protecting, like RG3. We did things backwards with Long, who we took before we had a QB worth protecting. Gotta have the QB, and oh look, we finally do. Now keep him upright. And that bit about a QB 'making' an LT is just strange to me. I don't know what you're getting at, I must be misunderstanding you. No one thinks Joe Staley sucks; no one thinks Anthony Castonzo was good last year. An LT's individual play isn't impacted by a bad QB, that's just silly; what the LT does matters less to winning, sure, but that's not what you said. A QB's individual production, on the other hand, is directly impacted by bad protection - see FinD's charts a page ago, the Eagles, the Bears, Pats/Giants superbowls, and just general common sense of a protector/protectee relationship.
You're totally missing the point here pops. No one is saying that a good LT is going to make a bad QB good, but they certainly can give that QB enough protection, putting that QB in the best position to succeed. Henne's problem wasn't that he wasn't getting sufficient protection to succeed. It was that he just had mediocre skills. He certainly had time. A LOT more than the QBs had before Jake. It wasn't like Henne was getting creamed after two steps back, which is the way it was before they drafted Jake. Same thing can apply to your Cassel reference. Jake certainly helped a frail, but awesome Pennington take the team from last place to AFC East Champs in his first year. Some just really forget what it was like before they got Jake. Now, I'm not advocating they trade up for a T this year. I wouldn't like that move. Hell, I'm one of the crazy people on the Eifert/Ausrin bandwagon. I would prefer they sign Brandon Albert or Winston and hope Martin gets stronger and can continue to progress, but I'm not about to diminish the importance and effect of the LT position or, for that matter, any other OL position. LT will always be an important position for most QBs, especially right handed ones. Also, getting "serviceable" LTs is actually a lot more difficult than one would think. You're taking more of a risk and the odds are not as good of finding one in the later rounds. You can go that route and if the first one doesn't work out, which is a good possibility, it now sets the team and it's QB back for a couple of years. The windows for success closes a lot faster these days than in the past. You better hope you strike gold and find that gem later on, though the odds of doing so are not nearly as good.
Keep up? LOL. Good one. Take your own advice buddy. It wouldn't be a high first rounder, let alone a trade up.
But MrClean, what we are saying (and I agree with Paddy) is that, what is the point of the LT unless you have a QB? It's like having a state of the art deadbolt on Fort Knox, with no gold inside and the side and back doors secured with a padlock. Use all of your power to get the QB first, then worry about that left side.
Name the last Franchise USDA Prime Grade $10 million/year Top 5 overall pick Left Tackle to take their team to the Superbowl and win it. In the alternative, the last one to take their team to the Superbowl and lose. In the last 10 years that is 20 teams. How many? 1? 2? 3?
I honestly would never draft oline in the 1st round the only reason to do it imo is the cheap contract and if that's what there looking for then ok fine.
Glad you're not our GM then. pouncey's impact is evident every game. If Ireland traded down a few spots and picked up Warmack, it wouldn't be as exciting, but our run game would be amazing
The premise of this thread that the LT position is not a franchise position is absurd. All you have to do is look at the draft this coming week to see how valuable the teams in the NFL believe a franchise LT is to the overall play of the offensive. I predict three LT's will be selected before any other offensive player in the draft is taken. Joeckel, Fisher, and Lane will be drafted within the first seven picks this week. The only other offensive player who is projected to possibly be taken before all these LT's are drafted is QB, Jeno Smith and I doubt if he will be drafted before any of these LT's. Other than possibly Smith, no RB's, WR's, TE's, or other offensive line positions are projected to be drafted before these three LT's. It is obvious the GM's in the NFL believe that the LT position is the second most valuable need on the offense, behind only a franchise QB.
You take a LT whenever you can get one. You don't avoid them in the top 15 picks if a good one is staring you in the face and you need one. Sometimes, yes, you are able to get one later, but it would be stupid to base your entire player acquisition process on that. The odds are better of getting a good one if you take one early. For every Duane Brown that gets picked up late in the 1st, who needed 3 seasons to reach a Pro Bowl level btw, there are several like Chris Williams and Gabe Carimi.
