That question pertains to a different point entirely than the one I've been making. The relevant question to my point would be, over the past X number of drafts, what percentage of players taken beyond 50 have contributed significantly in the NFL?
Brian Hartline, Lamar Miller, Mike Wallace, Randy Starks, Paul Soliai, Reshad Jones, Brandon Fields. All guys drafted after pick 50 who've contributed and had success. And that's just OUR TEAM! Oh, and Cam Wake, Dannell Ellerbe and Brent Grimes weren't even drafted! So, yeah you're stance is pretty ridiculous, with all due respect.
I fail to see the difference I asked you same thing just framed differently. You are making the ascertain that players not drafted in the top 50 are unlikely to contribute. Of course you use vague terminology so if you need to wiggle out of it later you can. Why don't you man up and be clear about what your saying and then provide us with evidence to back up your position.
Back to Boyce. This thread has gone way off topic and dissolved in to a baited argument with too much personal nonsense.
Didn't know we were interested in this guy. As bad as the Pats have been at drafting mid round WRs the last 5-6 years maybe we were saved from wasting a draft pick.
By that logic why bother going past pick 50? Do you realize what a baited argument is? Do you realize how it violates TOS? You should since I know I've explained it to you quite a few times. I'm not going to ask again.
But they called before the Patriots picked which is 2 before ours. We're talking 15 minutes here. I'd make the pick first. Call if you can, even after you make the pick. Seems silly to call the guy at least 3 picks in front of ours.
It's probably best to just avoid all these mindless arguments with Shou who seems to use his background in psychology to manipulate emotional responses in furtive trolling fashion. Especially avoid him if he's asking for proof of something that's as obvious as the light of day, as it's not worth the time and effort. You might think you've won by proving him wrong but he's the one smiling knowing he inveigled you into wasting your time at his expense and have fed into his alleged power trip. Just like the signs on the zoo read, "Don't feed the animals!", we need one here reading, "Don't feed Shouright!". Back on topic, Pick 50 = 2nd round, BTW. Anyone who thinks 2nd round is bleh or meh doesn't know his arse from his elbow. We just got Jamar Taylor at 54 who's a borderline 1st/2nd round talent and expected future starter with potential to be an impact player in the secondary. Apparently Shou doesn't understand the nature of the draft and that quality guards, linebackers, tight ends, safeties, running backs, receivers, corners, and defensive tackles are routinely found after pick 50 b/c they're not prioritized as highly as other positions/skill sets; plus the fact not every player fits every scheme and not every player fits a positional need so plenty of talent gets pushed down out of sheer happenstance. Starting slot receivers are quite often found after pick 50, and I'm guessing Boyce would've replaced Bess.... and upgraded him in fact.
Does your thesis have merit? No. If common sense prevailed this thread would have ended when Coral Reefer pointed out that over half of the Dolphins Ring of Honor was comprised of 4th rd picks or lower, including undrafted free agents. There have been six 4th rd pick Hall of Famers, and who knows how many All-Pros, Pro Bowlers, starters and players who made their teams. And that's just 4th rounders, where of course Josh Boyce was selected, the actual point of this thread. This thread got hijacked here, at post #10 in response to Coral Reefer:: Originally Posted by Coral Reefer Not relevant. We were never going to pick O'Brien. Marino was the pick or they were going elsewhere. What's the difference? The odds are that Boyce becomes a whole lot worse a player than Ken O'Brien. Response: "In what round do you stop feeling bad that other teams picked your pocket? The 7th? I'd say it's when players in general start to become very unlikely to become good, which is about midway through the 2nd. Having my pocket picked in the 4th is meaningless, because neither the player you wanted nor the player you ended up taking is likely to be the diamond in the rough one would have to be to feel bad about it." And this comment purposely diverted the conversation back to a thread that died a few days ago, "NFL Draft Fan Psychology 101". Care to guess who the OP of that thread was? My question is, for what purpose was this thread diverted? To have a legitimate discussion or to incite and stir the pot, and more importantly to draw attention to the poster? Post #29 from the other thread: "Sounds like "psychological incite" is exactly what I've done." post #33: "What these folks don't seem to realize is that they're making me and what I do a topic for conversation, which is giving me a level of importance I truly don't deserve." And that pretty much sums it up, as to what happened to this thread and why. Going back to the Coral Reefer point- over half of the Dolphins players considered the best of the best, those in the Ring of Honor, are 4th rd picks or later, including undrafted free agents. Case closed, no surprise here and I think that I'll continue to pay attention to draft picks after the 2nd round and choose to believe that they matter. Hopefully what's not lost in all of this is that a good part of the fun of mock drafts, draft discussions, etc. is to see if your favorite players were in fact rated highly by NFL draft professionals, and whether or not your favorite players end up having good careers. All of this is for fun for us amateurs, it's an avocation, not a vocation. And if the alternative is to be a cheerleader and say "Yayy!" every time the Dolphins make a pick- that might work in a thoertical best of all possible worlds for Voltaire's Candide, but not for me thank you. I'll stick to choosing my favorites, as meaningless an endeavor as that may be.
Ok, it looks like Boyce was the main target in the 4th (which would be a nice fit in the slot, quick and strong WR) but then he gets drafted before we're on the clock and we take Jelani Jenkins instead! Now, if Boyce was plan A, why haven't we drafted another WR later? Didn't they have another one on their board as plan B? There were some other WR options available, especially slot guys!?
It shows that they were open to a wide receiver if he was worth this draft position. it is obvious they had Davis ahead of Boyce.
Denard Robinson was taken early as well. I believe he was our 3rd or 4th option. Stedman Bailey was taken immediately before 3b, so it's possible he was one of the players removed from out board that Ireland frustratingly spoke of, in turn vaulting Boyce to our 4a priority. Then Robinson was drafted in the 5th well before our 5a.
Plus Keenan Allen was taken right before Dallas Thomas. Who knows who the Dolphins wanted the most in those slots, but I wish that we picked up a WR or 2 in this draft.
That's what i'm thinking as well! Looks like Ireland stuck with his draft board, which is ok with me, especially after the signings of UDFA's WR's Bumphis and Collins! One of them might have the chance to be our new slot guy!
I am a reasonable person and generally analytical. But what is the point here for Armando? These kind of situations occur all the time. There is a motive/agenda for Armando and it is directed at the organization (Dolphins). That is what I perceive here.
Wonderful, and I have no problem with that, but just realize that your favorite player who's picked in the 4th round is unlikely to succeed, and missing out on somebody who was picked just two spots higher in that round is very likely down the road to be utterly meaningless. In other words, don't feel too bad that the Patriots "picked our pockets" here. It isn't likely to mean much, ultimately.
Your whole argument was gut shot by Coral Reefer, and you never fully addressed his point. To recap, over half of the Dolphins Ring of Honor players were drafted in the 4th rd or later, or were undrafted free agents. This seems to fly in the face of your argument that players drafted in the 4th rd or later are "unlikely to succeed". So given your thesis as to players drafted after around #50 overall being "unlikely to succeed", how do you explain this? Is the Dolphins Ring of Honor data flawed? Is it statistically irrelevant in your opinion?
You aren't following my point. What determines the likelihood of success of a player drafted beyond #50 is the percentage of those players in the past who have been successful in the league, versus the percentage who have not. The percentage of players from that part of the draft that comprise our Ring of Honor is immaterial, because it fails to consider or incorporate the percentage of players drafted beyond #50 who were never successful in the league.
Immaterial to who? Immaterial to you because it flies in the face of your argument? Let's recap here: - You're on a Dolphins site - You're telling Dolphins fans that they needn't worry about players drafted by the team after #50 because most will fail anyway. - And yet more than half of the team's very best players ever, in the Ring of Honor, were drafted in the FOURTH round or later, which is obviously even a lower bar than below the top 50, and this is irrelevant? Really? I'd venture to say that a good number of those players in the Ring of Honor went a long way to helping us win 2 Super Bowls, and many others drafted after #50 helped us have a great run in the 80's, along with Marino of course. Mark Clayton Bruce Hardy Joe Rose Glen Blackwood Mike Kozlowski Bob Kuechenberg Larry Little Jim Langer Earnie Rhone Jimmy Cefalo Jim Kiick Howard Twilley Nick Buonticonti Doug Betters Steve Towle Eric Laakso Ed Newman Dan Johnson Gary Fencik (Bears) Norris Thomas Mark Dennard Tommy Vigorito Norm Evans Charles Bowser Marv Fleming Vern Den Herder Mercury Morris JB Brown Paul Lankford Reggie Roby Larry Seiple Uve Von Schamen Pete Stoyanovich Dick Anderson Lloyd Mumphord Mike Kolen Jake Scott Hubert Ginn Curtis Johnson Tim Foley Joe Theismann (4th rd pick, went to CFL and helped WSH win a SB) Charlie Babb Larry Ball Don Strock Leon Gray (3rd rd pick cut in camp, went on to be All-Pro for the Patriots Cameron Wake Randy Crowder Channing Crowder Nat Moore Jeris White Joe Danelo (good career with Giants, etc) Norris Thomas Duriel Harris Leroy Harris Gerald Small Guy Benjamin (#51) DOn Bessilieu Ronnie Lee Tony Nathan Jeff Toews David Woodley Bill Barnett Jim Jensen William Judson Fulton Walker Mack Moore Ken Poole Andra Franklin Mark Duper Mark Brown Charles benson Mike Charles Bud Brown Jay Brophy (eh) Fuad Reveiz Ron Davenport Jeff Dellenbach Alex Moyer George Little Reyna Thompson TJ Turner John Offerdahl Mark Dennis Tom Brown Chris Conlin Troy Stradford Jeff Cross Louis Cheek Harry Galbreath Ferrell Edmunds Bert Weidner Jeff Uhlenake Scott Mitchell Alfred Oglesby Sean Vanhorse (made it elsewhere) Scott miller Gene Williams Brian Cox Aaron Craver Dave Moore (long career) Dwight Hollier Larry Webster Chris Gray Ronnie Bradford Terry Kirby Tim Ruddy Dwight Hollier Aubrey Beavers Normand Hand Shawn Wooden Zach Thomas Shane Burton Karim Abdul Jabbar Ed Perry Brent Smith Derrick Rogers Jason Taylor Lorenzo Brommell Kenny Mixon Grey Ruegamer (long career) Arturo Freeman Todd Wade Morlon Greenwood Travis Minor Chris Chambers Randy McMichael Seth Kinney Yeremiah Bell Donald Lee Wade Smith Derrick Pope Rex Hadnot Tony Bua Will Poole Kevin Vickerson (still in the NFL) Antthony Alabi Travis Daniels Devin Aromashodu (stayed in the league for a while) Fred Evans Derek Hagan Brandon Fields Paul Soliai Samson Satele John Beck (in league 5 years or so) Lex Hilliard Donald Thomas Jalen Parmelee Bernie Parmalee Kendall Lankford Chad Henne Chris Clemons Brian Hartline Sean Smith Earnie Rhone Austin Spitler Reshad Jones Nolan Carroll John Jerry Jimmy Wilson Frank Kearse Fred Evans Charles Clay Clyde Gates (still in league) Daniel Thomas Rishard Matthews Kheeston Randall Josh Kaddu Lamar Miller Michael Egnew Olivier Vernon http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/draft.htm Btw Dwight Stephenson barely missed out of that list at #48 overall. Tim Mckyer was one of the best Dolphins CBs I ever saw at training camp and was #64 pick overall by SF. Also, I doubt that SF would have been so successful without their picks taken after 50, including Joe Montana at #82.
In the later rounds there are only 5 minutes, so I expect it is very common to call the player you plan on picking before you are on the clock. The 2nd round is 10 mins but even so, I recall Rick Spielman was on the phone with Anquan Boldin, saying he was gonna be our pick, then when we went on the clock, that idiot Wanny overruled him and said no we are taking Eddie Moore.
There was a strong rumor going around that we were targeting Denard Robinson on day 3. The interest in Boyce indicates an interest in that sort of player, so it is probably true about Denard. I am surprised we did not use one of the 4th rounders on Denard after Boyce was already taken.
This is real simple. Take a look at all the players drafted beyond #50 in the years between 1999 and 2009 (giving the most recent ones time to develop), and tell me the percentage of them who were successful in the league. If that number is greater than 50, you win. Oh, and don't forget the likes of Joe Toledo and Dorian Brew, since we're on a Dolphins site.
I'd say a player who at any time was declared a starter for a reason other than an injury to the guy in front of him on the depth chart, or a guy who was named a starter for that reason and then kept the job after the other guy got healthy. In essence, starters in the league. I'm willing to guarantee you won't find a greater percentage of starters to non-starters at pick #50 and beyond between the years 1999 and 2009. If I'm wrong about that, I'll be the first to admit it.
So now your percentage cut off as to whether players drafted after #50 are statistically significant is 50%? That's funny. Did it hurt a lot when you pulled that number out of your bum? 50%? Really? That's your cut off for "relevance"? Since you're lecturing Dolphins fans on which rounds are actually important, let's take a quick look. On the Dolphins now, including this draft, there are 7 players drafted in the top 50, which is around 13-14% of the 53 man roster. So obviously the rest of the roster is made up of players drafted after #50- a solid 86% or so. It's a pretty simple conclusion as to whether or not that 86% of the team is important. It is. All of this is superfluous- Coral Reefer buried you. More than half of the Dolphins Ring of Honor players, our best of the Dolphins best, were drafted in the 4th round or later, or weren't drafted at all. You're going to have to suck on that one for a while until it makes sense to you, because there is no meaningful response to that. Then look at the list of contributing Dolphins who were drafted #50 or later to see the folly of your argument.
Hey Styla i know you're bummed about the Bess trade but maybe Bumphis will fill the void... [video=youtube;7LXD1dDvRaY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LXD1dDvRaY[/video]
