yeah, i'll take the guy who cant read defenses and scores touchdowns. i like hartline, but he's not a top 40 wr
I'm not sure I can concede that he isn't good at scoring touchdowns any harder than I already have without drawing something in paint. Sure is, when you're comparing him to a bunch of low-volume guys. The most passes you catch, the more likely it is to go down. Among guys with 75% of their teams snaps he's 9th. Not sure this statistic is all that valuable. First % percentage isn't really correlating with a player's value, it is correlating with their use. It's either possession guys or guys who are basically down-the-field only guys. Disagree. There are a lot of variables that go into that which have nothing to do with the player specifically and a lot to do with how often the team is passing in general. No, Philbin doesn't want Hartline getting 26% of redzone attempts. So what?
I think Hartline is a solid player, but I don't rank him a top 40. I'm not sure he is a top 8 in the #2's.
Lol it was?! Again, who is making these ridiculous arguments? No it doesn't. Every player on that list superior. Every receiver on that list would make our offense better more-so than Hartline does if you swapped them.
We coulda had him...instead Ireland dissed his mom and we passed and we ended up with Odrick and Misi as a consolation prize...with decisions like that, no wonder we can't crack 8 wins
I think Misi is still an ascending player LB, watching some stuff last year there isn't much he doesn't do solidly, not bad in coverage either, Odrick on the inside could be better than Odrick on the outside, even though he holds his own at the Dend position, he just operates in confined spaces so much better than the opposite. Dez is a great player though so I understand your pain,
Does that mean you would advocate giving him 30% of the attempts over the first 70 yards of the field so that he still meets his 26%?
You're right, he's not gonna break tackles or get YAC. (FTR, this is the end of Taco's analysis) Hartline will get to a spot with little to no separation and make the catch if the ball is there. There was a time when that was the description of a TE though. Now, however, TEs are more like WRs, and that makes Hartline a problem in my opinion.
Check the bolded. You made multiple statements that were not congruent. Edit: I just figured you could tell which ones you made up and which ones I agreed with. Edited my post and bolded the one I was referring to.
Did you not see the comma? Or do I need to go back and turn that into its own sentence so we can move on? ****There. I fixed it.*****
Ah so you're saying if Hartline increased his TD production by 1200%, yardage by 27%, YAC by 76%, yards per target by 18%, catch rate by 16%, 1st downs per target by 14%, and doubled his number of 80+ yard games while cutting his sub 50 yard games by more than half, all while breaking a bunch of exciting plays in the process, you'd stop liking him b/c he'd become "TOO STYLISTIC" for you?
He doesn't. He gets very little separation. Tannehill threads the needle and has to wait for there to be even the smallest amount of separation. Hartline's lack of separation is one the reasons why he rarely has free space to run and get into the endzone with the ball.
Not true, he just doesn't have the speed to maintain separation and he isn't running threw any arm tackles, or finger tips for that matter. He gets open though. Edit: he's not big and strong enough to catch as many deep balls as he does if he couldn't.
Most of the time I've seen Hartline be open even semi-deep it was because: A) Busted coverage (Arizona on about three plays including the long TD) B) A corner who doesn't even belong in the NFL (Oakland) C) The corner gets flat footed waiting on a short route because they have no respect for Hartline (I forget the opponent but it was the game where Tannehill overthrew Hartline because Brian runs like molasses and then a few plays later looked like he didn't trust Brian to run under it and underthrew him by a lot.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that fans overrate physical ability and underestimate mental ability. Therefore, Dez Bryant is overrated and Brian Hartline is underrated. That doesn't mean Hartline is better than Bryant.
How did he have 14 20+ yd receptions as our only deep threat then? Why didn't everyone produce like that?
Don't be surprised if his only answer to this is because Hartline didn't command respect therefore they intentionally left him open.
I didn't compare him to a bunch of low volume guys. I set the cut off at 20 receptions. We can examine it a different way if you prefer. 57 receivers totaled at least 200 YAC in 2012. Hartline ranked 55th in YAC per catch. ..... and the two with lower would qualify for first in targets every year since 2006 sans Calvin Johnson's absurd 205 targets. That's true, Hartline does score a lot of touchdowns to make 1st % irrelevant. Never mind. Ok but he is consistently productive across the 16 game season to excuse it. Never mind again. But he's huge in the clutch and can will himself into greatness when the team needs a big play. Sorry, never mind. Apologize for the sarcasm but it was funner that way. He's a solid possession receiver, nothing more, but obviously not without limitations. All I'm saying is that with a deeper and more talented roster there's no need to keep giving Hartline 26% of the targets when he clearly does possess certain situational limitations when other players can better maximize some of those targets. Disagree on your disagree. I've added to it above. 23% of his yards came from one game when one game should only represent 6.5% if the player is equally consistent across the season. How about this: Hartline received 26% of the targets but for the final 12 games of the season averaged a disappointing 4 catches, 52 yards, 0 TD, and 7.75 avg per game, with 25% of his games at less than 20 yards and 50% at less than 50. Extrapolated out, that's 65 catches, 832 yards, and 0 TD for a full season. Do you honestly believe that's considered maximizing 26% of the passing game and that no one else on the roster could improve upon it if given some of those targets? If you don't think Philbin wants it then why are you arguing Hartline will continue to see the same level of target percentage? Are you gonna increase the rest of his targets to 30% to make up for it? I find it crazy to think 1 in every 3 passes should be going the way of the guy who is absent playmaking ability. The days of Henning's boring possession-based offense are long gone. Ireland and Philbin both emphasize playmakers. It's why we brought in Wallace & Keller and nearly drafted Tavon Austin. And as far as the possession stuff goes, Gibson will rightfully be eating into some of those targets seeing as he led the NFL in 1st Down/TD percentage.
Because it took him 20yrds to get some separation at times. How come he can have 14 20+ yrd receptions and have only 1 TD?
Geez I don't think anyone thinks he is a bad WR. Sure he gets open and he makes some difficult catches at times. He has a good awareness of his feet in relation to the sidelines. He is a good WR for all of those reasons. There are at least 40 WRs in the league that can do those things better than him. He is not a top 40 guy and its for all the reasons given on the things he does not do well. Two big weaknesses in his ability to make yards after he catches the ball and getting open in the endzone. If he improves in those 2 areas I don't think any of us would dispute that belongs in the top 40 ranking. Hartline is average at his position.
Dez wasn't the only good player we passed on, that 1st round was stacked, Brandon Graham, Dez Bryant, Demaryius Thomas, Pierre Paul, Earl Thomas, Mike Iupati, Kareem Jackson, Jermaine Gresham, Devin McCourty, Sean Weatherspoon, we could have drafted any one of these guys and they all would have helped our team more than Odrick and Misi have.
It might be because his best route, the deep sideline come back, is one that Tannehill excels at throwing.
I wanted Brandon Graham, but it's really hard to quantify having two players starting relative to one really good player.i don't think it's cut and dry to say big mistake no?
Here's an easy way to look at this: For all intents and purposes Davone Bess has become Brandon Gibson, not Mike Wallace..... so we should be transferring Bess's 104 targets over to Gibson. They were signed for nearly identical yearly dollar amounts, although I'd personally call Gibson the better all around player and better fit for this offense. Put it this way, if it were 2012 again, Gibson would be starting over Bess. Then we add Mike Wallace to the equation, making it 3 receivers now heavily competing for targets rather than just 2 like last year. Anyone care to tell me how Hartline will continue seeing 26% of the targets? You gonna make Wallace & Gibson split Bess's 104 targets? Gimme a break. But wait, there's more. Our new #1 TE is a receiving upgrade and should see a significant target increase over Fasano's 69. After all, Keller averages 108 when healthy. Guess Keller is in for a disappointing year considering a big chunk of his targets will be used to maintain Hartline's 26%. Eh, let's keep it rollin'. Matthews, Binns, Egnew, and Thigpen combined for 32 targets in 2012. Guess that's gotta remain the same, too, since heaven forbid Hartline's targets get reduced to that of an average starter. Can I get a WUT WUT for logic!
So do a lot of receivers, except many of them score TDs and break plays. Debate that. Sorry but it's silly the love you guys give a possession only receiver as if nobody else in the NFL can run a goddam route or catch a pass that doesn't involve a TD or highlight reel play. Even sillier is how many of you criticize other receivers for not running a full route tree yet Hartline doesn't run one either, not even close to being diverse in that regard.
what, you mean like: "what percentage of passing targets will Hartline see in 2013 compared to 2012?" a. Hartline will continue seeing 26% of the offenses targets b. more than 26% c. 1-9% reduction in targets d. 10+% reduction in targets e. 20+% reduction in targets I'd probably go with E.
okay i think i misunderstood you... I took this as you saying the argument was Victor Cruz vs Hartline, which threw me off because I didn't see anyone argue that. but now I see you probably meant Victor Cruz vs Dez, Stringer Bell sparked that debate six posts in by questioning Dez Bryant's ranking above Cruz. we have a list of the 40 best WRs in the league here, of which Hartline is not included, if you're going to make a blanket statement that he is top 40 or 30, don't be lazy, tell us who he should be placed above. also don't overlook the fact that this guy left off a handful of guys that many would consider superior players: Crabtree, Lance Moore, Blackmon, TY Hilton, Malcolm Floyd. so that makes 45 receivers, so imo Hartline falls somewhere between 46-50. BTW I'd love to see you try to remove 16+ names off this list to get Hartline to top 30 status.
honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Hartline fell to like the 4th option in the passing game behind Wallace, Keller, and another one of the WRs, maybe Gibson or Matthews. imagine if we had drafted Tavon Austin as well lol.
I would be surprised if his production fell off by that much. He is RTs most familiar target and he is reliable. I think RT will be giving him plenty of looks. Im a little excited about seeing how good RT is going to be at spreading the ball around and exploiting coverage weaknesses in defenses. If he excels at that BH may have a greatly diminished role.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Hartline running free in the secondary all year. He runs great routes and understands coverages. I thought the guy did a nice job vs. the #1 CB considering his preseason struggles. And don't underestimate his knowledge of Tannehill's game.
Not sure I'd go that far, but I could see Hartline, Wallace, and Keller closely clustered around 100.
