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Mini Camp Day 3

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Alex13, Jun 13, 2013.

  1. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I thought most of his better play with the Cards came at slot CB and at FS, not on the perimeter, as he played last year for Miami. He wasn't much better than Nolan Carroll was on the outside IMO.
     
  2. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    He wasn't good for us but I'm not going to judge him based on a few games.

    I like the depth we have at CB with the additions of Grimes, Taylor and Davis. So we have insurance if guys aren't playing well.
     
  3. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I really like Jamar Taylor. If he's healthy, I could see it where you have Grimes and Marshall starting, then bump Marshall into the slot and bring in Taylor when Miami goes to nickel and dime packages. Though if I'm honest, I'm hoping Jamar Taylor is a starter soon rather than later.
     
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  4. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If this team is going to do well it is going to be some of the unheralded guys that will fly under the radar and do well. Who? Guys like Spitler, Shelby, Jenkins, Martin, Matthews, Carroll, and even Garner. These guys on special teams and in specific roles will make the difference. More than people realize.
     
  5. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    i feel you DJ , but a freakin REAL GAME !!! 84 days away...DAMN
     
  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    no, but maybe he thinks he will compete for the spot this summer??
     
  7. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Sounds like something you would do if you were overload blitzing and wanted your DE to loop inside.
     
  8. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    if everthing works out the way at corner, there will be some tough decisions to make, i really hope patterson makes it somehow, could we keep 6 corners ? grimes, marshall, taylor, davis, patterson and carroll ?


    Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk
     
  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nat Moore says that Gibson has looked excellent in his opinion..
     
  10. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    I agree. All teams have NFL caliber starters...however, the good to great teams have their "starters" yet their unheralded players seem to always step it up come game time. I'm hoping that Philbin, Sherman and Ireland have found some of those types this offseason.
     
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  11. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    Panther fans say he is more miami marshall, than cardinals marshall.
     
  12. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    You're bragging about saying that? If I made such a preposterous statement, I sure wouldn't remind anyone of it later.
     
  13. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I'm not in a rush to start Taylor. Wait till he is ready. With Marshall, we ain't hurting at corner. Sam Madison didn't start till late in his rookie year, and as I recall it was well into year 2 before Surtain started. They were arguably our best set of corners ever.
     
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  14. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I'm sure Carroll will be competing, but unless his ball skills improve a good deal, he'd be no more than a lower tier corner if he is one of the starters.
     
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    He wasn't better than Nolan Carroll on the outside at all, IMO.

    As I've said before it's hard to do stats analysis on Richard Marshall's time in Arizona because he split so much time at safety, a fact which goes unaccounted for by PFF's data. Safeties have a MUCH lower yards/catch expectation per snap than corners because they're not in primary coverage.

    But if you look at Marshall's time in Miami and you also look at his time in Carolina I think it becomes pretty clear you've got a guy who gets himself into trouble with flags and penalties, and has difficulty covering on the perimeter, but is a lot better in the slot.
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree, I'm pretty suprised with the praise myself, unless it was more praise for the work ethic and attention to detail than his game itself..he is fast, isn't afraid to hit, plays the run pretty good, idk but I hope Philbin is right.

    This will Davis kid is cool, have you had a chance to check him out ?, seems real bright...sometimes I get so tired of listening to guys that talk like the never went to an English or speech class, he's refreshing..
     
  17. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I agree with you on Carpenter but Marshall and Grimes are the starters, everyone else is playing for the nickel CB spot at this point. The only thing that'll change that is injury. Grimes-Marshall-Taylor-Davis are virtual locks to make the 53, that leaves 1 spot (doubtful we keep 6 CBs), for Carroll, Wilson, Patterson, and the rest. If Carroll starts it'll be for another team, he's got a better chance of getting cut than he does of starting for us.
     
  18. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    The main reason he started last year is b/c Vontae was traded and Marhall was injured. Now Marshall is back, Grimes is taking Smith's spot, 3 corners were drafted, 2 in top 3 rounds. Doesn't take a genius to see where the Nolan Carroll experiment is headed. Oh well, beats talking about UDFA receivers and fullbacks w/o no chance of making the team, I guess.
     
  19. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I know I'm in the minority on this, but I'd rather see what Jamar Taylor could do before trotting Marshall out again on the perimeter. I think Taylor is good enough to start as a rookie, provided he's healthy. Again, I know I'm in the minority on that, but I think he's better suited outside in this defense than Richard Marshall and Nolan Carroll.
     
  20. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I've only seen highlight vids on Taylor so I know next to nothing about hin, what have you seen & what is it you like about him?
     
  21. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    You have to be seriously good to start straight off the bat at CB. Taylor is unknown right now.
     
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  22. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I disagree......sorta. In my opinion it is likely we will keep ten DB's overall. Since Marshall can play safety and Wilson is listed as a safety but is currently playing nickel corner then how you count CB's and S's could be problematic. DB's are among the most versatile ST players and it sounds like Carroll is being groomed as a gunner on coverage teams from some of the minicamp reports. We will also likely want to keep our three DB draft picks if they look OK in camp and that could inflate the numbers. It may be five CB's on the roster but I suspect we will see 10 overall DB's with at least 4 who can play boundary CB if necessary.
     
  23. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    fixed.
     
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  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Even had Richard Marshall not been injured, Nolan Caroll would have gotten about 50% of defensive snaps as the top nickel corner.

    I don't know what has led people to proclaim loudly and boldly how stupid it would be to dare to assert that Nolan Carroll actually performed better than Richard Marshall last year. He did. There's statistical evidence of it, and also film evidence of it. There's statistical, film and anecdotal evidence of Richard Marshall being a highly underwhelming starting corner, too. The guy was let go by two teams in a 12 month span.
     
  25. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If they are I can't see how their doing it with any sort of confidence, I thought both underwhelmed, Nolan's version more vivid because of how much he played..

    But yeah, between Marshall, Nolan, and Jamar I'd think that position is open to be won in camp.
     
  26. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    You could be right. Though I think it's going to be a tight squeeze trying to fit 10 DBs on the 53. For the sake of argument if we went 25 offense 25 defense, PK, Punter, and LS, 10 DBs would mean 15 DL and LB's.

    Wake, Odrick, Soliai, Starks, Martin, Randall, Jordan, Shelby

    Ellerbe, Wheeler, Misi, Vernon, Jenkins, Splitler, Trusnik, Kaddu

    Who on that list do we cut in favor of a 6th CB/10th DB? Schematically we're not going to playing more than 5 DBs at time very often. IMO it'll be more nickel variations, 4-2-5, 3-3-5, 2-4-5, etc instead of putting a traditional dime back on the field. For me it makes more sense to go with 8LBs and 8DL, if you want 6 CBs settle for 3 safeties, if you want 4 safeties settle for 5 CBs. Don't skimp on the DL or LBs, too much attrition there to go the cheap route.
     
  27. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Marshall was hurt in the first half of the Oakland game, saying what he did or didn't do last year is a pretty weak rationale. Prior to that he was signed, came to camp and seized the job away from a talented former 1st round pick who was later traded away and held the position until he was literally on crutches and unable to walk after the Arizona game. Now that he's healthy again he's been placed back into the starting lineup. Clearly the coaches like him and what he brings to the position more so Nolan Carroll so there's nothing bold about a forum post saying Marshall's the better player.

    Actually, I'd say that insisting Carroll should be the starter, that there is film, anecdotal, and statistical evidence to this effect is quite bold. It implies that the professional decision makers placing Marshall ahead of Carroll have missed this evidence. That they don't watch game/practice film sufficiently, study relevant statistics, or are too incompetent to draw the appropriate conclusions. Not just bold, very bold.
     
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  28. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Josh Kaddu I think would be the most likely. Philbin mentioned him positively, but he's buried on both his presumptive roles. He's behind Jordan, Misi, and Trusinik at that OLB position, and Jordan, Vernon, Shelby, Misi, Wake, and Odrick at DE.
     
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  29. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    i somehow still have hope for kaddu when the pads come on, if not he is a goner i agree
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    You're right. There isn't anything bold about believing Richard Marshall to be better than Nolan Carroll. What IS bold is stating that it's 'preposterous' (and also implying that it's embarrassing) to think that Nolan Carroll is the better. Surely you recognize the difference?

    Not really. Coaching staffs make mistakes all the time. This coaching staff, for instance, clearly thought Legedu Naanee was a valuable receiver and good enough to be a starter. They thought Daniel Thomas should be ahead of Lamar Miller on the depth chart. They thought Jared Odrick should be a defensive end. They've since cut Legedu Naanee, elevated Lamar Miller above Thomas, and moved Odrick back to defensive tackle. I don't understand this notion that simply disagreeing with them is in some way disrespectful or misguided, or implies that you think them incompetent or lazy.
     
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  31. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    I seen that only as the coaching staff making sure Miller was healthy before putting a load on him.
     
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  32. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I would agree that Kaddu is the likeliest of the 16 proposed roster positions to not make the team. Frankly the last 3-4 of the probable 25 defensive players who make the team will make it because of ST play and those questions will be answered in camp. I still like

    CB-Grimes, Marshall, Carroll, Taylor, Davis, Jones (Sanford and/or Patterson are the guys on the bubble)
    S- Jones, Clemons, Wilson, and either McCray or Kovacs. (The other is the bubble guy)

    Of course all of this is subject to injuries.
     
  33. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I wouldn't call it preposterous or embarrassing so I agree there. Different people look for different traits in evaluating DB's. I like Marshall b/c of his versatility. He can play zone, man, off, press, he can run, tackle, blitz, play inside, outside or FS. He's not great at any one thing but he's not a liability at anything either. Obviously you're more a fan of Carroll's skill set, I'd love to hear why.


    IIRC Nannee was slated to be the 4th WR. Ocho, Hartline and Bess were ahead of him. Ocho was cut for off the field stuff, Hartline was hurt but immediately made a starter upon his return. I wouldn't say the coaches were unaware of Naanee's limitations, IMO it had more to do with an overall lack of talent and better options. We all know WR was a disaster last year. I believe Thomas was ahead of Miller because Miller struggled picking up the offense and/or the protections and he was left inactive b/c backup RBs who don't contribute on STs probably don't deserve to dress at all. I think it's too early to say that Odrick has moved permanently to DT. DT was his position coming into the league but there are two Pro Bowlers ahead of him there so it makes sense to try and find work for him, at DE if necessary, especially when there was no one else available to play the position. If Jordan/Vernon/Shelby come in and demonstrate they can do a better job then I imagine Odrick will go back to his natural spot. I honestly don't see anything in those situations that I'd call a "mistake", or a failure to accurately gauge a player's capabilities to be more exact.

    I understand you disagree with them on Marshall vs Carroll. My point on the film or statistical evidence showing Marshall to be inferior is that it's a bold statement to make b/c I dunno how such evidence could exist without coming to the attention of the coaches and staff.
     
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  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Carroll just never developed, he's the sort of player who is just "A guy", between Carroll and Wilson it's a toss up, neither may make the squad w/Davis and Taylor being added.

    Marshall is a better player going back to his Carolina days, but he is also an inconsistent player.
     
  35. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    I also remember when the Buffalo Bills signed Doug Flutie to be a camp arm and nothing more, but he ended up being better then Rob Johnson.
    Coached make mistakes all the time, but not nearly as much as the fans see.
     
  36. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I like his size, first and foremost. I think he does a good job in different coverages. He can press, he can play off man, he can play zone. He's a solid tackler; not as physical as Vontae Davis per se, but he gets his guy down. I think he's got pretty good ball skills. He can play in the boundary, he can play the field; left or right he's pretty equal all things considered. He's a good blitzer from the slot when he's lined up there. I think he closes on the ball pretty well. I think he gets caught peeking in the backfield and is susceptible to double-moves, but I think that can be somewhat mitigated based on this scheme, meaning I don't think you have to leave him on an island 1-on-1, but you can. I just think he fits this scheme very well. I don't think he's as athletic as Leon Hall, but I see Leon Hall in him.
     
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  37. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    My opinion of Davis is while he has good instincts, footwork and reactions in coverage, he is far too timid and passive as a tackler to ever be a starter. Teams do still run the ball, and if he were a boundary corner and had to come up and meet a sweep, he'd a major liability. Based on Utah State film anyway. He could still improve in that regard, since he is relatively inexperienced, and it will be one thing to really keep an eye on in the preseason, IMO.
     
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  38. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Leon Hall? That is high praise. Can't wait to see him out on the field. Grimes is a known ball hawk, I keep hearing how aggressive Davis is, now I'm hearing Taylor can squat, drive and finish; the grin on my face keeps getting wider :yes:. If the pass rush improves and the offense can give them some leads to work with for a change, the DBs are going to have buku chances to get their hands on the ball. I like it.
     
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  39. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    How do you feel about him as a nickel/slot type of guy?
     
  40. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Well that's no good while living in Miami.
     
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