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Travon Martin Trial

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by RickyBobby, Jun 26, 2013.

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  1. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    Quick question, if tm approached ga and he reaches down to call 911 this time because it turned into his emergency, why would he look down atnthe pocket he thought his phone was in?

    I think u would want to keep your eyes on tm, no?
     
  2. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    No, it doesn't prove that at all FinD. If you listen to the 911 tape carefully (and I did because I had to prove another point to Mom), when Zimmerman advises the dispatcher Martin's running, you do not hear the revving of the engine as if Zimmerman was following Martin in his vehicle AS he was running. You hear the door open and Zimmerman pursues on foot, which is a relatively SHORT pursuit if one actually listens carefully to the wind noise/huffing & puffing.

    The maps are all subjective and relative. They neither prove nor disprove the routes taken by either Zimmerman or Martin. One could interpret the maps as...

    Martin takes off running, turns down the back walkway and hides while Zimmerman continues towards the back entrance. Martin continues to hide as Zimmerman walks back towards his vehicle where he is confronted by Martin and the physical altercation begins.

    Or

    Martin takes off running towards the back entrance and ducks behind on of the buildings to hide from Zimmerman. When Zimmerman breaks off his pursuit and starts to return to his vehicle, Martin approaches him behind, confronts him in between the buildings, the physical altercation begins and Martin is shot and killed.

    Or

    Martin takes off running and Zimmerman pursues. Zimmerman disregards 911 dispatchers that his pursuit is not needed and Zimmerman scurries up and down between the buildings until he finds Martin, draws him out from his hiding at gunpoint, engages in a physical confrontation and then shoots him.

    Or...see what I mean? There's a NUMBER of possible interpretations of those maps.

    There's only TWO people who know exactly what happened that night and one of them is dead. NONE of the testimony thus far proves nor disproves the maps.
     
  3. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    More lies. He had an autopsy and a medical examiner, coroner, filed a report. In that report it showed TM had an injury to his right hand.
     
  4. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    In a previous career I used to investigate people for insurance fraud and have put a number of people behind bars.

    My experience has been that someone's story that is 100% consistent across multiple interviews is someone who is telling a well rehearsed lie.
    People's memory is a plastic thing, something that can get moulded by suggestion, repitition. People being interviewed may not realise that a particular detail is important until after they have been interviewed and they then include it in later tellings.

    So minor variations in the telling of a story over time are not an indicator of truthfulness or untruthfulness. Even major variations in stories can come about because of poor interview techniques in early interrogations. i.e. in order to get the story straight you need to ask the right questions in the right order. More time gets wasted in investigations because of shoddily taken initial statements than any other cause.

    Things that you need for look for in order to establish credibility in my experience are:
    - Little details about extraneous things. Things that you wouldn't make up because they are extraneous to the story.
    - Not too much detail about important things. Human memory is that people tend to remember some things well and in detail and other things not so well. When someone claims to remember everything in minute detail my suspicion index ratchets up.
    - A story without big chunks of missing time.
    - What happened in the lead up and aftermath. If you need to make up a lie about what happened at 9:30 in the morning when you were supposed to be at work you will make up a lie about how the event occurred in the workplace, but if you ask someone about how they got to work that day that can unravel their story.
    - Internal consistency. If an important detail is missed in version 1 and included in version 2 and the reason given is "I wasn't asked and I didn't realise it was important" that has more credibility if they could reasonably not know that the detail actually was important.
     
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  5. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    It wasn't a lie. It was a mistake on my part. A mistake I have no problem admitting I made. I was going off from what I misunderstood from early in this whole situation, when the funeral director made the news by saying there weren't any marks on his knuckles. In those stories, there weren't any mention of an autopsy. Like in this one. Again, I misunderstood it and I was wrong.
     
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  6. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    His accounts are supported by the physical evidence, though. He got his face beaten, had lacerations in the back of his head, and Martin had injuries to his hands. All it takes is a reasonable doubt as to whether things happened as Zimmerman says they did.
     
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    If that happened Zimmerman is lying. Look at the map. If Zimmerman was walking back to his truck, why did he turn down the walkway?

    I don't see how this is different*from your first OR scenario, but I did only get up an hour ago. Same thing though, if Zimmerman turns down the walkway, he's lying about being headed back to his truck.

    Which also makes him guilty.

    No, what I see is that in EVERY possible scenario, Zimmerman chased Martin. That's the first significant act of aggression and meets the burden for being considered assault. Zimmerman turned this into a volatile situation. Any scenario that shows Martin attacked Zimmerman has two major problems:

    1. It ignores the chase as assault.
    2. It can't explain why Martin was in fear enough to run, but then suddenly fearless enough to call GZ over to him and then attack.

    My theory of what happened (again its a just a theory):

    Zimmerman spots Martin walking. Starts to follow in his truck slowly. Martin notices it and gets suspicious picks up pace. GZ calls police and picks up his pace. TM decides to get a closer look at whose following him. TM realizes the guy is following him and not some random person driving slow looking for a address or texting or whatever. TM takes off running for the walkway in between the building since the person following him can't drive there and wants to run home. He rounds the corner and GZ runs past the walkway, TM hears this and hides in some bushes. GZ stops pursuit and heads back to his truck, hears rustling in the bushes down the walkway, stops heading back to his truck and turns down the walkway, where he sees TM hiding. TM already scared and cornered and fearing for his life thinks his only option is to attack and stand his ground, leaps out of the bushes tackling GZ. Sees GZs gun and tries to get it from him, can't so he punches GZ (whose head hits the concrete a couple of times) so he can get the gun. GZ gets control of the gun and shoots and kills Martin.
     
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  8. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    While I somewhat agree, that's not exactly what's happening here.
    Have you listened to the tapes, at least the 4 th one I posted, Zimmerman isn't just having variation in his story he totally forgets very important issues, systematically.

    And with all do respect fraud is a very different crime than what is being accused here and they investigation are different along with interviews.

    But I totally agree about the real possibility of gaps in the story bc of the ways the brain works but I do not feel that is what is happening here. I believe gz tells people what he thinks he wants to hear and then when he realizes that it may not have been a henficial thing to say...he forgets.

    The gaps and inconsistencies are very important issues. And it seems gz has a very vivid memory regarding anything aggressive tm may have done.


    Bottom line for me is that the state doesn't really have a case bc of the circumstances of this individual case but WTF is a kid walking home, in his own community being followed by a armed man for. It complete bull****
     
  9. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    It looks like he got punched once in the nose and his hit head. Notice scratches on the side of the head, that's not consistent with laying on your back having your head bashed in.

    I understNd what the state needs to prove and I've said on here before that gz will most likely be found not guilty but that doesn't mean I believe he's innocent.

    Idk what happened buri think gz continued to follow this kid, and everyone here would believe it if tmha a pretty white girlfriend instead of who was up on the stand
     
  10. bigbry

    bigbry Huge Member

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    Thats exactly what I said, but I was called nonsensical.
     
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  11. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    Here is a video I feel is done well. They talk about facts and make it known when they are just speculating.

    It's long but if you all would please just watch the last few minutes where they give an alternative scenario to the night, one I'm more inclined to believe than what Zimmerman is claiming.

    So please watch the last few knifed of this
    [video]http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=%2F#/watch?v=pw4utMiNido[/video]
     
  12. So anyone who does not think the way you do is a racist?

    Ive heard all I need to from you.
     
  13. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    Oh come on, let's live in the real world.

    That is not what I said at all. I'm just saying that she was ignorant to here environment and it really hurt her credibility.
     
  14. She comes across to me as a racist and you implied that if she were white that I would have a different opinion and give her more credibility. Maybe you did not mean it to come across that way but that's how it sounds to me.
     
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  15. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    OJ is probably not innocent either, but the state couldn't prove its case. That's what we're probably going to see here.
     
  16. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    You're right.

    If she was more professional and comfortable more people would believe her. She really preformed badly on the stand.
     
  17. I don't fault the state as much I do the judge and the jury on that verdict.
     
  18. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    But if the glove...
     
  19. that's what I fault the judge for. Those theatrics should of not been allowed
     
  20. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You can comment on the evidence on closing argument. You can exploit prosecution blunders.

    If the mitt don't fit you gotta acquit...
     
  21. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    If you watch the walk through and see where TM's body was, GZ didn't walk down the pathway. It's very plausible that during the scuffle, which GZ claims started right at the "T", they moved the 10-15 ft down the path.

    And again, you keep harping on the "chase". GZ was sitting in his truck, was approached by TM, TM saw him on the phone, TM ran. GZ then exited his truck, and from the audio, sounds as if he ran a very short distance, stopped, and claimed that he lost sight of him. He continued to talk to dispatch for more than a minute, telling dispatch that he'd be at his truck waiting for the police. After he hung up GZ claims that as he was walking past the alley intersection, TM came from down the alley, from beside/behind him and asked, "Do you have a problem"?


    I love the "bushes" theory. One BIG problem...There were no bushes to hide in or rustle. There are a few 3' tall hedge looking things. He was hiding and afraid and yet "leaps out and attacks GZ"? How did he see GZ's gun? Do you think GZ was already holding it? This is all pretty much nonsensical. He ran...He ran while GZ was in his truck. At the point he started running he was about 70 yrd from his house. If he was so scared he could have been home in about 10 seconds...before GZ even made it back to the alley he ran down. Sometime between when TM ran and was shot he was talking to his girlfriend...or whatever she was. he was not scared, or hiding, or else he would have mentioned this to her. He said that some "creepy-*** cracka" was following him. She told him to go home and he said no. Anyhow, so TM is down the alley, and it seems walking back to the "T" intersection of the sidewalks. As Zimmerman is headed back to his truck, GZ claims that TM confronted him.

    What this video from about the 2:25 mark.

    [video=youtube;KxmO9hXHC_o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxmO9hXHC_o[/video]
     
  22. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    I completely understand. Sorry I called it a lie. There is a lot of info about this case flying around and some of it is bunk.
     
  23. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    No. If his girlfriend hadn't of lied about pretty much everything, and then got busted for lying, she might be believed.
     
  24. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    And wasn't a habitual liar.
     
  25. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    One more thing. If some think GZ had his gun in his hand before he was punched by TM...OK. That's plausible that he was unholstered while looking for TM. However, I think if GZ had his gun in his hand he would have fired off more than one shot... either while getting punched or flailing on the ground. GZ, again, seems like a very meek person and doesn't seem too adept at protecting himself.
     
  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Number 1: there are bushes clearly visible in the video you posted that can be seen without even playing the freaking video. I mean, come the hell on.
    Number 2: A chase is a chase. Why you act liek a chase that lasts a few seconds isn't significant speaks to your obvious "open mindedness".
    Number 3: How hard do you think TM hit GZ that they ended up 15 yards away? Remember GZ's story goes, TM calls out his question, then a sucker punch, then TM is on top of GZ. That makes no sense.
    Number 4: I didn't say he saw the gun from the bushes.
    Number 5: GZ does say that TM went for GZ's gun. It'd be pretty hard to do that, if TM never sees it until he's shot with it.
    Number 6: Its bizarre to me, how soooooooo many treat GZ's words as gospel. How often does that happen for you same people I wonder, where the defendant's word is never questioned and everything always must have happened exactly as they have said?
     
  27. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    GZ is also a habitual liar and has a history of being violent. But the girl with no real skin in the game is the bad guy?
     
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  28. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    1. I said there were 3' tall hedges. Read my entire posts before you comment. Do you think he was laying on the ground, the wet mud, talking to his GF and hiding?
    2. A chase is not a chase. If I'm the NHW captain and see a suspicious person, I call the police and try to see which way this person ran. That's not chasing.
    3. He wasn't 15yds away. Maybe 10-15ft from where he was first punched to where he ended up on the ground. I take it you've never been in a fight? I've hit people, they've hit me, and we've both ended up way far away from where we first started.
    4. Then why was he scared and why did he approach GZ? Why hide in a 3' hedge when he could have just ran home...I mean, he was so scared and all.
    5. While GZ is on his back with TM on top, GZ claims that his shirt rises and TM sees the gun and goes for it. AFTER TM is already beating him.
    6. Do you ever notice that I right "GZ claimed" a lot? Do you know why? Because I don't know if this really happened or not. It will be up to a jury to determine that. However, what he has "claimed" seems to be adding up. YOU'RE the one discrediting everything GZ says. You don't even look at the evidence. You just saw a headline, "white man shoots unarmed black kid" and immediately deemed the "white" man guilty. Even though he's not white.
     
  29. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    10yr olds argue this way with their parents.

    Rachel Jeantel is a liar. She's lied from day one about this case. THIS CASE. I'm sure GZ has lied in his life. I know of no one that has never lied.
     
  30. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    You should watch that last VIDEO I posted it breakdown the timeline using phone records and clubhouse video.
     
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  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Then you're arguing over the semantics between constitutes hedges and bushes? Are you saying he can't hide behind those hedges?

    You try to see from a stationary vantage point. The second you start running after someone else running, then you are chasing.

    Try again. The distance from the "T" in the sidewalk to the spot labeled "F" is not even close to 10 feet. Its considerably more than that.

    [​IMG]


    If you are talking about my theory, I explained it completely.

    Riiiiight. Makes perfect sense. Being armed, chasing a guy, get attacked and never go for your own gun. Yup.

    It doesn't matter if you're qualifying it, because you're using it all as gospel. You can keep saying that about what I read and how I came to my conclusions, but I've laid out my case for what I think clearly and precisely and have backed it all up with facts. You OTOH, have simply parroted everything GZ has said. That's it, that's all you've done. One shows critical thinking the other shows you agreeing with GZ start to finish, whether it makes sense or not.
     
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    STFU. This isn't tit for tat, GZ has lied IN COURT, yet his testimony is factual to you and the girls isn't. Even the investigating officers thought he was lying about the events and wanted him arrested and he lied about money to the judge.
     
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  33. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    No semantics here. Do you think TM was laying down in the mud, behind 3 foot hedges while talking to his girlfriend in order to hide from GZ? Seems far fetched.

    Now you're arguing semantics. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that GZ chased a scared TM. He chased him AFTER TM took off running. The reason he chased him seems pretty plausible considering that he was on the phne with dispatch when he chased him. It's also fairly certain that he "chased" him for about 10-20 yards and lost him. If TM was so scared why not continue home? Why hide and then confront GZ?

    From the "T" to TM's house, the distance is anywhere from 50-60 yards...according to everything that I've read. On your map it's roughly 3.5" from the "T" to TM's house. So, let's make it simple and say it's 50 yards from the "T" and 4" from the "T" to TM's house on the map. So, 50 yards = 4". That means every inch is about 12 yards or 36 ft.

    From the "T" to the letter F on your map, it's about 1/2 of an inch. That's about 18 feet. Now, if you want to get precise and do the exact math they were about 15-25 ft from the "T". Previously I wrote 10-15 ft and that's pretty damn close and is most certainly NOT "not close to 10 feet".

    Better yet...look at these photos.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    In the 1st photo how far away is that tree from the sidewalk? 5? 7 feet? In the second photo how far away is TM's body from that tree? If you think the police standing there are about 6' tall...then he's about 10-12 ft away from that. Again, anywhere from 15-19 ft away.
     
  34. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    "STFU"? Really? And that's how 10 year olds argue with each other.
     
  35. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If we're arguing this hard among ourselves, do you think there's a snowball's chance nin hell that Zimmerman gets convicted?
     
  36. He shouldn't be convicted for something he is not guilty of.
     
  37. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    Another thing about this case that I keep thinking about is the fact that some criticize GZ for calling the cops a lot. Something like 40 times in a few years. To me that shows a person who doesn't want physical confrontation. It seems as if GZ wanted the cops to handle that side of it.
     
  38. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    I don't know. Jurors aren't stupid. They most likely feel the pressure to convict or watch Sanford (among other cities) get burned down by rioting blacks. Now, I'm not saying that they will succumb to that pressure, but it's a possibility. In fact, if GZ was a black guy I doubt this even goes to court.
     
  39. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not going there.
     
  40. So far, I personally believe GZ is innocent of the charges but I think what you just posted is unfair to say. An unarmed teen was fatally shot. I'm not sure this should of gotten past a grand jury but it did and I have no problem with sorting this out by a jury trial. I give the jury the benefit of the doubt that they will render the most accurate decision they can free of outside influences. I also give communities the benefit of doubt that they wont riot when there is a verdict they don't agree with.
     
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