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Travon Martin Trial

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by RickyBobby, Jun 26, 2013.

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  1. Only asking cause your a lawyer and I find the nuisances fascinating.

    Thanks for sharing
     
  2. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here's another statute for you.

    776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
    (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

    776.013 is about defending your house and doesn't apply here.
     
  3. Where I guess Im getting lost:

    Hypothetical:

    GZ patrolling neighborhood and sees suspicious person
    calls 911
    person runs
    GZ pursues but does not confront, only observes
    police arrive and GZ directs them to location of suspect

    In this scenario is it correct to say that no crime has been committed?
     
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  4. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes. Unless he's visibly displaying a firearm, but that wasn't part of your hypothetical.
     
  5. If TM tells him to stop following him and GZ continues, is that a crime?

    If TM reacts by attacking him for ignoring what he told him is TM guilty os assault or is he within his rights to physically attack the guy?
     
  6. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    1) GZ can go anywhere he likes, including the same place as TM is going. So long as he's not threatening TM, no crime.
    2) IF TM strikes GZ for following, TM commits the crime of battery.

    Now, is GZ a freaking idiot?
    No doubt.
     
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  7. I guess the threating part is the gray area in this case without any witnesses. I have not heard any evidence that implies GZ threatened TM but he might of verbally threatened him. Is that where you are at in thinking he provoked TM and caused the fatality?

    Do you think he is guilty of 2nd degree murder or a lesser charge, even if it cant be proved
     
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  8. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Maybe manslaughter by culpable negligence, if anything. But GZ was in a place where he had a right to be, so he had no duty to retreat. One could argue that cornering TM while GZ was armed was culpable negligence, because it was foreseeable that TM might become angry or panicked and attack him, causing an armed confrontation that led to the killing, but that's a huge stretch. The judge may give a manslaughter instruction besides the second degree murder one, and the jury may convict of that as a compromise verdict. But I think GZ walks because, in the end, no one but Zimmerman knows what happened.
     
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  9. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    Not exactly sure what 2nd degree murder is compared to 3rd, is there a 3rd degree murder.

    I don't think you can prove gz committed a crime but I believe he is guilty of something. Is there some type of negligence charge or is that civil? I just feel he initiated the action but that he was in fear for his life, I think that was him screaming like a little girl. But I also think that if you are armed you do not put yourself in that situation, you do not get into that.

    The thing no one has told me is how it can be that gz can get so far away from the t if tm punched/picked him. Wouldn't he fall the other way, with the direction of force, does his story defy physics.

    You notice in his walkthrough when he describe the scuffle he say he doesn't know if he was pushed or fell and then he's waving his arms and says that he was trying to like hand fight him. While he describes it he is walking forward...how is that possible, di tm run around him? Gz never said he did that.

    I believe he walked down that pathway. And if he did do that then he did not attempt to escape. Now if gz was unable to escape after he initial confronted tm does he still have right to use deadly force, I think he does.

    Bottom line, gz started it but I'm not sure him did anything illegal.
     
  10. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here's third degree murder:

    (4) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated without any design to effect death, by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any felony other than any:
    (a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
    (b) Arson,
    (c) Sexual battery,
    (d) Robbery,
    (e) Burglary,
    (f) Kidnapping,
    (g) Escape,
    (h) Aggravated child abuse,
    (i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
    (j) Aircraft piracy,
    (k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
    (l) Unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
    (m) Carjacking,
    (n) Home-invasion robbery,
    (o) Aggravated stalking,
    (p) Murder of another human being,
    (q) Aggravated fleeing or eluding with serious bodily injury or death,
    (r) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
    (s) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism.

    I think the concept that you're reaching for is manslaughter by culpable negligence.
     
  11. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    lol..That's pretty funny. It's just too bad that you're projecting. ;)

    The crime scene photos are what they are. I never said "a few feet". I initially said 10-15 feet. Any person with a brain, and an ability to perform simple math equations, would find that TM was anywhere from 15-25 ft from the "T". Which is pretty damn close to what I initially said and not as far as you thought.

    Here's something that may help the simple minded out:

    A typical slab for a sidewalk is about 3ft. I've never seen one bigger (there may be some that are) but I have seen some smaller.

    [​IMG]


    Here is the body. He is no more than 7 slabs (no pun intended... away from the "T". That's 7 * 36". (36" = 3 ft for the math challenged amongst us) 7 * 3 = 21'......Oh my GOD!!! He was 21 ft from the "T".

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

  12. reading your post reminds me of the whole trashy dressing girl asked to be raped defense. I have a hard time convicting GZ of any crime but do concede that he probably could of excercised better judgement too.
     
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  13. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    Thank you.

    If gz did follow and confront tarpon, Could that be considered aggravated stalking iyo?
     
  14. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    I think this is the best post of this thread

    GZ is a moron. Is he a murdering moron. I don't think so.

    If TM didn't try do "keep it real" he's probably having sex with that girlfriend of his right now. (I'd prefer death) Sorry...bad joke...
     
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  15. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    Erie how close it is to the kid wearing a hoody walking in his neighborhood must be up to no good thing.
     
  16. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    No.
     
  17. one big difference is that there is no evidence that kid was confronted by violence. Show me something to indicate that and I would be more receptive to the idea that Martin was not the catalyst. As it stands the prosecution has not offered any evidence that convinces me of their accusation.
     
  18. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    "So long as GZ doesn't threaten TM" being the imperative part here. We know TM felt threatened by what he said on the phone.

    I also have a hard time believing that TM initiated any violence because he has 0 motivation to do so. The most damning piece of evidence against GZ is the phone call to 911. He believed TM to be a criminal.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  19. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Cornering someone is assault, when the actions force someone to the point of panic. TM very likely believed GM was a diddler.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Nothing but you're last two photos are showing up on my screen. Those last 2 photos do not show anything that supports your point. The second to the last shows the body across from the third unit in the building. That makes the map accurate and if your ignorance is to be believed, these units are a spacious 5 feet across. You have to stop now, its looking silly.
     

  21. Racists are motivated by hate.
     
  22. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No, because it has to be a course of conduct on more than one occasion.

    Florida Statute 748.048
     
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  23. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I have a hard time connecting a racial slur to motivation to murder.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    You would have to fill in the blanks as to why the person ran. In this case, there is no logical reason for TM to run, aside from the fact that he was in fear.
     
  25. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    Or that he was really up to no good. Or saw GZ on the phone and didn't want to get hassled by the police. Or many other things. Him being scared is one of many reasons for running.
     
  26. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    lol..You're wrong. The first two pictures prove it without a shadow of a doubt. The 3rd pic...How can you tell it's the 3rd unit? lol...
     
  27. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    There is no evidence that supports Martin was up to no good. Its illogical to believe so IMO. There is no reason to believe he was doing anything wrong.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
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  28. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I'm not wrong at all.

    I can tell because of observation. You make things up like the officers height and sidewalk slab sizes, and I just look at the pictures and see the evidence.

    (Now remember, I'm using photos YOU provided.)

    Compare this photo (we'll call 1):
    [​IMG]

    ...to this photo (we'll call 2):
    [​IMG]

    Now assuming 1 was taken from the sidewalk intersection, we see the garbage can in 2 just off the left side in 1. The tree in 1 is the tree in 2 that appears just across and down a little from the garbage can. You'll notice that tree is off the front corner of the first unit with screened in patio in 2. That unit is not in frame in 1. So that is one whole unit down. That unit would have to be only 5 to 10 feet wide for your bull **** theory. Then you can look at the first white fence in 1. That is either the rest of the first unit or second unit. The body is past that and closer to the second white fence which denote the second or third unit. Again, that would clearly indicate your silly and made up "surveying" skills based on markers (you fabricated info about) are just simply wrong.

    I'd tell you to go to the store and buy a tea, Skittles and some critical thinking, but I wouldn't want you to walk home from that through a gated community, that would get you shot.
     
  29. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    There is also no reason to believe that he was scared. A scared person runs the 70 yds to their home. They don't hang around, talk to their GF, and then confront the person they are supposedly afraid of... THAT'S illogical.
     
  30. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    Count the slabs, sport. Those slabs are about 3' wide. The body is at slab #7. 7*3= 21 ft.
     
  31. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    Who's to say tm wasn't hiding and gz found him or that after gz got of the phone, he continued to walk do the road towards the back gate while tm was walking home through dog walk then gz takes a right at end of the road to head back to his car, through the dog walk. At that time he would have seen tm. That would go with what 1 claims of noises going from left to right. That also would explain location bc gz claims he fell backwards after being hit
     
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That's stupid and not true.

    Look at the damn picture. Its obvious.
     
  33. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Sure there is. He had a phone conversation with someone, and told them that he was being followed by someone he deemed "creepy". He also ran.

    Which is exactly why I don't believe the story that TM confronted GZ.
     
  34. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    I don't think those slabs are 3ft long
     
  35. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Heh, problem with "I don't believe"

    Physical evidence on Zimmerman corroborates his story, one can believe whatever one will, the facts are not on that theories' side.

    As an aside, it is fairly obvious to me that one should never breathe a word to a LEO in FL, basically Zimmerman's recording at the police tation testified for him today.
     
  36. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    3 ft wide for sure.

    And now Martin's mother is going to testify tomorrow?

    WTH sort of circus of a court are the running down in Florida?
     
  37. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You continue to use the word "chase", did he chase him or was he out of his truck walking around looking for him?
     
  38. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    why do you say that you shouldnt talk to Leo(I agree)

    Gz did, and it didn't hurt him yet here. Is there something particular that peeked this/
     
  39. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    I believe he chased him. The timeline leads for action that gz has not accounted for.

    Only evidence is gz statement, so no, nothing can be proven as to a "chase"
     
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