Um, you know I'm not attacking weed use, right? #1. Weed use was not the only red flag. He's was suspected of gang activity while at UF. #2. Repeated drug violations while in a program (UF football) that tests for and forbids weed, shows the person has a problem with authority. #3. Clearly these issues didn't disappear completely when he left school and popped back into existence that night, so that means the behaviors that caused the red flags continued from the time he was drafted to the time he executed someone. So either these behaviors weren't suspected by the Pats or they were and it didn't matter, either way we have an organization that obviously made the wrong call.
I just think they rolled the dice and said screw it.....they took Dillon who was a problem child and they won the Super Bowl, they took Ocho and even though he sucked he didnt give them any problems..... I think they recognized AH was a problem thats why he was there in the 4th, when at that point BB believed like he did with the other problem children he had over the years, that he could coach them and make them see the "Pats Way"..... After a few years of really good play and a few more years elder, they obviously must have thought he was past that and as well maybe their thinking was if they hit him with an extension he would continue to see the light....when in fact he made him more brazen...
In case y'all are interested....Wallace is getting arraigned.... http://www.wpri.com/generic/news/lo...ail&utm_term=0_e72e501ea8-b4646e8b9c-38970673
The problem with the red flags argument is that, he pretty much was considered a model citizen as a pro. No one had anything on him up until the murder charges came about and everyone went digging into his past. Other than the possible double murder involvement from last year (obviously a huge deal) there hasn't been anything tha popped up about him that wasnt from his high school or college days. THOSE red flags costed him millions of dollars in the form of where he was drafted and how much money he got on that first contract. From there though, he "proved himself," by staying out of trouble, being productive and a favorite target of Tom Brady's. And that is why he got that contract from New England. There was obviously zero evidence that this was a possibility at the time of the contract signing and anyone claiming that there were clearly signs is lying and playing a hindsight detective.
You're making an assumption that he was a model citizen while in the pros. Again, as information trickles out, we realize that he wasn't a model citizen.
Correct. Hiding your illegal activities isn't the same as being a model citizen. All signs point to AH not being a model citizen since maybe his high schol days.
But who knew that? That's my point. He clearly wasn't walking around bragging to people about who he just murdered. As far as anyone knew within that organization, he was a model citizen and had had zero run-ins on or off the field. Robert Kraft (who is a fantastic owner and a tremendous human being, by all accounts) came out today to say that they were duped. H stated that the contract was clearly a misae in hindsight and had they had ANY issues with his character or had any suspicions, they wouldn't have given it to him. That's the same for all of us. None of us knew that Hernandez was doing any of this. To claim otherwise or to point to stuff that appended in college that we didn't fully know about until now, is folly.
I say that it was a mistake to not investigate a guy that had those kinds of red flags before you give him a big contract, and Kraft comes out and admits they didn't investigate and the contract they gave him was a mistake......and I'm somehow wrong? There were plenty of rumors about his gang-type activities when he was in college. Either this shooting was a crime of passion that just sprang up out of the blue OR AH became a criminal mastermind as soon as we was drafted. Here's some more info: http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/06/21/drafting-hernandez-was-always-risk-reward-proposition-for-patriots/3HWjGvTSTOOOs5BtpvFDcJ/story.html
Yup that's exactly what I said. Thank you for cutting through all the bs and getting right to the heart of my point. Bravo.
I mean, I am trying to understand what your saying? Your saying that the Patriots should of done their research before giving him a contract, yet there wasnt much they could dig up, that you honestly could sit and say, "Yea, I dont think we should give him a new contract", until now at least.
I'll try to explain it again. There were real concerns and red flags BEFORE he was drafted, and they were beyond just the pot smoking variety as has been claimed. Clearly, since he was drafted he's continued with those red flags up until the point he shot and killed this person. Between the time he was drafted and the time he shot this guy, are we to believe he was just a model citizen? I mean do you really believe a guy goes from thug gangster to perfect citizen to a murdering thug gangster?
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/...tuesday-odin-lloyd-first-degree-murder-070813 Basically more info....what the Judge was presented with as PC for him to sign the search warrant in the first place...
I seriously don't know how to talk to people anymore. I say the Pats should have investigated AH before they gave him an extension. I'm told that's crazy because how could anyone know he was doing anything wrong. I say because there were all the red flags about him before and the fact that we know now, he continued that behavior. I'm told there's no way to have known that. I say, well yes there is, if he was, you know, investigated. I'm then told again that's crazy because how could anyone know he was doing anything wrong. On top of it all, the Pats admit they didn't investigate him and that it was a mistake to give him an extension. I legitimately don't how else to explain it to you guys.
That's because your clearly not thinking clearly. Unless Pats had a PI on Hernandez for a long period of time and caught him doing wrong, they wouldn't know. Last year in my city we had 20 Unsolved murders. Explain to me again how if someone investigated the people that actually committed the murders, they would know they did wrong? Your saying the Pats investigators are better then homicide detectives and police? If someone gets away with a crime and no one knows it, pats investigators aren't either.
For the record Kraft said they don't have PI's but I think that's crap.....I believe they all do, why wouldn't you?? I actually think they are dumb if they don't.... NFL teams have their own "security" teams that go out and investigate prospects during draft time, compile info and hand it off to the GM, they are basically PI's retired cops etc one of my buddies interviewed for an opening on NE....didnt get it....he said 490 applied for 2 spots.... what are they doing after draft time?
I'm thinking plenty clearly. I'm not saying the Pats would have found out he was murdering people. I'm saying they would have found out he's still doing the things that he was doing before he was drafted, that people didn't need investigators to figure out, considering his red flags were pretty widely known.
Ok, I am just jumping into this conversation, so excuse me if your repeating yourself. When you say "things that he was doing before he was drafted", are you refering to smoking the reefer?
Partly. Forget what the drug was, it is claimed that he was busted for it repeatedly. That's a red flag because it shows he doesn't learn his lesson. There were also numerous red flags that he had gang ties and that he continued hanging with those guys even while in college, and not spending time with his teammates, which is a red flag. Plus he was questioned in a shooting during his college years. He was also known to have a violent temper. So basically we have a suspected gang banger who was questioned in a shooting, continues to hang with these guys, repeatedly get busted for drug use with a violent temper who gets drafted and everyone just forgets all those red flags to the point they give him a huge contract and are shocked when he gets in trouble again?
I haven't seen the reports he was a gang banger? Getting questioned in a shooting doesn't make him that. Should the Ravens never have given Ed Reed a contract? I understand the drugs thing. But thats why he was a first round talent and didnt go until the 4th. He wrote a letter and offered bi weekly drug testing to prove he was then clean. He offered to put up his guaranteed money to prove he was clean. He has been in the NFL for how long, with tons of tests, and no positive tests. I am just saying over 4 years removed from having any drug issues and hanging out with his own personal friends isnt enough to keep him from getting a contract. Any gang related stuff may change my opinion, but I havent seen those reports.
I honestly don't even know what you're trying to argue anymore. He did all these things, therefore there should have been more effort by the Patriots to determine where he was at before they gave him the contract. Considering the Patriots have admitted it was mistake to give him the contract, I'm not sure why my point is being argued. You're basically saying they didn't make a mistake because each of these things can maybe be explained away, thereby completely ignoring what red flags actually are. They are warnings. Warning that you have to be more careful, the Pats were obviously not more careful. They admit it.
Fin, I love you, but what you are asking the Pats to do is completely out of the norm. I guarantee you that there are players on the Dolphins that are doing **** that, if known, would get them cut. Does that mean that the Dolphins should investigate everyone and incur the expenses to do so? Should the limit it to players that only have any sort of history or run-ins with police? Kraft admitted the contact was wrong and that they don't put P.I.'s on people (or get called for them the on the field), but he also didn't say that they didn't have any basis for not giving him that contract. In other words, they took the information that was available to him (I.E. his college and pro playing tapes, his checkered history at Florida and his seemingly clean past in Boston) and weighed that against their needs and offered him a contract, that at the time, was agreed upon by both. They had zero way to know that he would end up being a murderer. And I know you are saying that that isn't your point...but that IS kind of the point. If they thought or knew any of this was going to appen, no way they give him that deal. Kraft isn't Jerry Jones, after all. I fail to see. How they could have avoided it UNLESS there was evidence to the contrary that they knew about his continued activities. And considering that NO ONE knew about them, including police, journalists, teammates, coaches and family members...it leads me to believe that you are simply arguing a point that is unrealistic, for the sake of arguing. Or you are playing the role of Hindsight Detective, which now that I think of it...would be a really funny comic book character to have. Just an old, weathered dude in a trench coat, investigating crimes ad concluding that no foul play was done, only to have said criminal shoot someone minutes after being released and Detective Hindsight wondering if he made a mistake. Gold.
I am arguing that I think you would be stupid to not give a player the caliber of AH a contract extension because of his college days. Of course the Pats say it was a mistake now. I guarantee you if it had came out that he was involved in a shooting in college, the Pats would not release him, and would not say it was a mistake. Its a mistake because of him being involved and arrested in a murder
WADR, i think you both are forgetting what red flags are. They are warnings to proceed with caution. That doesn't mean wait and see if something bad happens. That means get on the ball and closely monitor the situation. Sam, you got a kid now. If you were to get a babysitter, would you investigate the person first? Probably not, but your baby's mama might. If she dug up red flags, like the sitter maybe a thief and an abuser of children but hired them anyway, would you just wait for something to happen or would you just rig the house with nanny cams and keep them monitored while they have your kid. Probably not, but your baby's mama might. They should have been monitoring him closer based on his ample red flag history. If they didn't then that was stupid. If they did, and found nothing then they are incompetent because he's clearly been up to no good. If they did and found some things, and gave him the contract anyway, then they were arrogant. Based on his history, to not monitor him but give him obscene amounts of money makes no sense.
So this apparently happened. http://www.turnto10.com/story/22792938/search-warrants-to-be-released-in-hernandez-case
He was known to be immature but nothing that would lead any team to believe he would be involved with something like this. He had been nothing but a solid citizen while with New England. He only failed ONE drug test, not repeated ones. He claimed to have only failed once, and Florida confirmed it. One drug test, and questionable people in his group. Hello, welcome to the NFL. He was as perfect as can be inside the football stadium. He did everything Bill Belichick asked of him. BB said he was #1 in training camp last year, right after signing his extension. He greeted Kraft with a kiss, and donated $50k to his late wife's charity when they got the extension done. He offered to be tested more rigorously then is required. Of course they admit it was a mistake to give him the contract. He's arrested and charged for murder. So was choosing Daunte over Brees, but at the time you can't fault them for making the decision. I ask you this in earnest, what were the red flags the Patriots should have unearthed before giving the extension? I know of some rumored stuff after the fact, but what could have been discovered in 2012?
Now certainly they can't predict that he will murder someone. But I have a hard time believing that they didn't know he associated with bad people. Sent from my HTC One GE using Tapatalk 4 Beta
The whole irony was the great lengths you must to stay clean with pot, with coke 2-4 days its out of your system but for heavy smokers like it seemed like he was, 30+ days. For AH maybe three weeks because he's active and has almost minimal body fat, I keep thinking how he never got caught and then it occurred to me if he took the same effort he does passing drug tests as he did concealing dead human bodies and evidence, he still might be on the outside with us.
And this was plastered all over TMZ in 2012? Oh that's right TMZ just obtained in a couple of weeks ago. You did see my post about the info that was out in 2012 before his extension right? They knew he hung with bad people. Nobody has said otherwise. 50% of the NFL hang with bad people. Ray Lewis hung with bad people. Mark Duper hung with bad people. Cam Newton was kicked off the team Hernandez was on :P What were the burning red flags the Patriots should have known, before offering him an extension? He was in a fight. Yes. There was a shooting, when he was with both Pouncey's. And I think Tim Tebow too. One drug test fail. Between signing his rookie contract and his extension, what were the other red flags. I don't see any major burning red flags. I just don't, which is why I'm asking.
Ortiz is saying that he didn't see who shot Lloyd, but Wallace told him it was Hernandez. That evidence alone would be contested by the defense as hearsay, but the forensic evidence might point to Hernandez too. It appears Wallace is not saying anything, hence the conspiracy charge against him. The interesting bit of Ortiz's testimony is that he says he took the gun out of the car at the house and handed it to Hernandez, so if that is the murder weapon and is ever found, then it will have both Ortiz's and Hernandez's prints on it. With Ortiz testifying it was Hernandez, the defense might say he's doing that because he was the one that killed Lloyd? http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...-admitted-to-firing-fatal-shots-documents-say
