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Travon Martin Trial

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by RickyBobby, Jun 26, 2013.

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  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Is that what he said?
    Again, sure if the kid is really doing something like vandalizing or actually standing in the bushes looking through people's windows, then you may have something. But this kid was guilty of walking home in a light sprinkle while talking to his girlfriend on the phone.

    So what you're saying is that disobeying rules that are in place to avoid liability, means you're not liable? Especially if you consider if he had followed both of those rules, TM isn't dead and he's not on trial.
     
  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Chasing someone while armed can be assault.
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Yes.

    It cannot be ok to just chase anyone you want while armed, especially when the person you're chasing wasn't breaking the law.
     
  4. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thank you.

    If Martin walks in my hypothetical because there's a reasonable doubt, do you see that Zimmerman walked for the same reason?
    He walked because no one knows what actually happened.
    That's far from a ringing endorsement of his conduct. He's still an idiot and a kid is still dead. No doubt he followed Martin while armed. But taking everything into account, was it reckless? Justified? Excusable? Intended with ill will? The jury had a doubt.
     
  5. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    It will never happen but I would like for Zimmerman to admit his irresponsible actions partly caused this and that he is deeply saddened by what happened
     
  6. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Can't. A civil lawsuit is coming.
     
  7. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    How the kid was behaving is a matter of opinion not fact. My guess is that the jury thought his behavior was less benign than you did or at minimum could be reasonably construed differently than your description.

    Liability is a civil level of culpability. Even if he were potentially liable that does not necesarily rise to the level of criminal culpability. In fact. It usually doesn't.
     
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  8. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    God bless merica?
     
  9. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Followed not chased.. I've lost count how many times this has been discussed in this thread. Martin ran, this was proven by both sides, prior to GZ getting out of his truck. What is GZ's next move, to get out of the truck because he loses sight of TM. Does he run or does he walk? He walks. If he was chasing TM, he runs after him and the confrontation would have happened much sooner than it did. GZ did not run after him. He walked after him, and never found him again, until the confrontation which occurred at least two minutes after GZ gets out of his truck.
     
  10. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    No sympathy for Travon I'm sorry. If someone asks who you are, you calmly respond and go about your business. By fleeing or being aggressively defensive you portray yourself as a shady character and WELCOME the further actions of the follower.

    Not that Zimmerman was 100% right in the actions he took.
     
  11. Phinz420

    Phinz420 New Member

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    It's especially difficult to prove when there is physical evidence along with eye witness testimony that backs up the case of self defense. Along with the reality that the state based their entire case around emotional pleas and a lack of physical evidence....and maybe the worst string of "state witnesses" ever produced in history.

    State Witnesses - A man who said he saw trayvon on top beating zimmerman, a woman who lied under oath and was not at the scene in the first place, and a medical examiner who looked like he wanted to cry when the defense attourneys & the judge let it be known he cant just carry notes to the stand for his eyes only....

    They attempted to railroad this guy, plain and simple. Continuous talk about this physically imposing high school football player being a mere "child with skittles and iced tea", and emotional pleas - thats not how you convict someone of murder or manslaughter, its how you stir up the public to fabricate a fiasco while ensuring the defendant walks.


    Hes going to be immune from civil prosecution as well, due to our state laws preventing self defense cases turning into civil suits.

    So now they have talk about federal prosecution for "racial profiling"? Really? The same "racial profiling" that wasnt even allowed to be uttered in court due to absolutely no evidence brought by the state relating to it?
     
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  12. Phinz420

    Phinz420 New Member

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    He should have just told zimmerman to **** off, hes going home to his dads house. What would Zimms recourse have been? I doubt it would have turned violent considering Zimm was obviously a wimp.


    This should really be a lesson to all youngsters who (many) have a natural instinct to act out violently without necessity. I personally put my life in peril on several occasions at that age, it was exciting - but incredibly stupid. It's a shame that Trayvon will not grow to be old enough to see how stupid his actions were like I am able to do with my own.
     
  13. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...neighborhood-watch-volunteer-george-zimmerman

    FBI no signs of Racism..

    Al Sharpton cries Civil Rights...


    Come on now.
     
  14. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    no kidding about the prosecution witnesses. Best part of that is during their closing arguments, they attempted to discount and defend their testimony (Jeantel and Bao). Talk about distracting the jurors from the issue at hand.
     
  15. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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  16. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    Al Sharpton want an investigation he can fund it himself god knows he has made a ton pimping race over the years.
     
  17. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    I anyone else surprised they haven't turned this into a race issue (yet)? The victim was a black person, no? And a non-black person is the alleged perp.


    Maybe this was a hate crime :shifty:. Isn't it always a hate crime when a black person is killed by a non-black person?
     
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  18. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    GZ hates a holes and effing punks... :shifty: he hates effing punks a holes... :shifty: That should be on the back of his football jersey as his name plate..
     
  19. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    So calling someone a "cracker" is okay?
     
  20. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    [video=youtube;i2JDLfkV_no]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2JDLfkV_no[/video]
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Well, which is it....was he looking in windows or was he away form the houses? Cause, I'd like to now, in case I ever decide to walk down a sidewalk. As far as I can tell, the jury wasn't asked to rule on if TM was skulking in the bushes looking through people's windows or not.

    So, what does constitute criminal negligence if breaking the NWP rules and breaking the rules of the police when they told him not to chase suspects when he was trained?
     
  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Makes perfect sense.


    I want to know where a guy running away went and calmly get out of my vehicle and just take a leisurely stroll after him. oh wait, you're the person that thinks if a guy in car is scaring you you should run adjacent to the road because....magic.
     
  23. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    Zimmerman never pursued. If he had, manslaughter was a possibility. He was acquitted. He was in the right. Neighborhood watch isn't a job. Thus, they can't tell a person who is legally carrying that they can't carry.

    Zimmerman did nothing wrong. Martin acted violently. Martin paid for his actions with his life. Martin ruined his parent's life by acting like a thug.
     
  24. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    He lost sight of TM. He tried to tell dispatch which way he went. TM acted tough. He paid dearly.
     
  25. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    Police never told him not to chase anyone. Your post sounds as if it was written by one of the ignorant, stupid, ill informed black panther party members outside the courthouse.
     
  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You didn't read what I wrote. I know you think I was talking about the 911 call, but I wasn't.

    Link

    GZ knew he shouldn't chase or be armed.
     
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  27. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    [​IMG]
     
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  28. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He was armed because the State has conferred a permit on him to carry a concealed firearm. He had the right to go around armed for self-defense, whether he was patrolling the neighborhood, coming home from bowling, or whatever he was doing. I'm neither for or against his right to carry, for purposes of argument. I'm just stating a fact.

    He can follow anyone he wants and "observe from a safe distance." That's his job as a crime watch volunteer. For all he knew, he was at a safe distance, because he didn't know where Martin was. He'd lost him. But the converse is also true. For all he knew, he wasn't at a safe distance.

    If he didn't know where Martin was, should he have gotten out of his vehicle, armed, and started looking for him on foot? Of course not. That was a lapse in judgment. It's failure to exercise reasonable care for his own safety and the safety of others. The very definition of negligence. The civil trial is going to be much harder for Zimmerman to win because it can be said that, but for the negligence, Martin would be alive. Was Martin's criminal battery, if you believe Zimmerman, an independent intervening cause? Maybe. In the civil trial, the party who is believed a little more than the other wins. But that's for another day.

    Here's where it gets dodgy. According to Zimmerman, he again spotted Martin, who was approaching him. Martin hit him, and continued to hit him until Zimmerman felt in fear of great bodily injury. Then he reached for the weapon he was legally entitled to carry and used it. According to Zimmerman, Martin is dead because Martin hit him and continued to hit him.

    Did it really happen that way? Who knows? That's exactly why he's been acquitted. He hasn't proven his innocence. The State was unable to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, which is a horse of an entirely different color from innocence.
     
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  29. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    It varies by jurisdiction but the one consistent standard is that it's considerably higher than the civil standard. The civil standard is generally a reasonable person standard. IMO it's a closer call on whether he met the civil standard. The fact that there's a rule would be a factor but not per se unreasonable if a person deviated from it.

    As for whether he was being suspicious or not is a judgment call. You're acting like what he did is a known. All we have is GZ description. If it was believed or not is up to the trier of fact. You may not believe him but it seems likely that the jury at least considered it a reasonably possible account.
     
  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You're missing the point. You claimed he was looking through people's windows, when he wasn't. GZ doesn't even claim that. GZ was very nebulous and non specific about TM's behavior. Its entirely reasonable for GZ to be able to say specifically what TM was doing while talking to the police, yet he didn't. Now, honest question, if TM is simply walking home, talking to his girlfriend on the phone and not casing houses as has been incorrectly assumed, does that change your view of GZ's actions?
     
  31. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    I am blogged at the reactions of people across the nation. It is pretty clear that not many people know how the Judicial System works and want to just make this whole thing about race. Besides NBC's (who is about to cut a very large check to GZ) best efforts to paint him as a racist, there wasn't one thing that showed he was. You want somebody to blame, blame the system and the laws that are there for the system to interpret. Blame Sanford, FL for allowing you to roam around on watch patrol armed. Zimmerman is free because because it is a one-sided story, plain and simple. All we know is Zimmerman exited the car/truck and followed a person after being told by a dispatcher that he didn't need to do that. Is that against the law? No. that isn't being an aggressor, being an aggressor is exiting the car/truck following the person AND stopping their path ie grabbing him etc. We as a population follow people everyday. We aren't being aggressors. Unknowingly Zimmerman's best defense is that he killed Martin as sick as that sounds. You can't send somebody away to jail for 25 years on assumptions it is as simple as that. That is the way it is set-up and all it takes is for ONE jury member to say "ehhhhhhh I don't think he/she did it" that's reasonable doubt.

    This case and the outcomes shows that the Hernandez case is no slam dunk as well. Now obviously we don't know ALL the evidence there could be stuff not told yet that makes us all say "he did it" but as it is constituted right now no weapon, no proof of pulling the trigger other than a criminal saying he did? If I am Hernandez's lawyer, I tell him to say the other guy did it to rebut his accusation and guess what folks, there is reasonable doubt as to whether AH actually was the trigger man. You have to have clear and convincing evidence that proves guilt BEYOND a shadow of a doubt in all felony cases in order to convict.

    To tell you how crazy it is, IF HE WANTED TO ZIMMERMAN CAN GET HIS GUN BACK!!!!!!

    This is a snipet from his friend who he hung with the whole trial. Not sure you make a statement that is easily vetted like this if it isn't true....

     
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  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Let's set the record straight about race and this case. The important thing to remember is that the "race issue" isn't just pointed AT GZ. There are a number of different instances that race plays a part in this case.

    #1. Is GZ a racist? By all accounts he is not.
    #2. Did GZ profile based on race? I don't think that's clear either way.
    #3. Did racism play a part in Sanford not bringing GZ up on charges? I don't that's clear either way, because #4......
    #4. Does the city of Sanford have a history of racist accusations? Yes.
    #5. Did people claim TM shouldn't have worn a hoodie because he was a black teen? Yes.
    #6. Will the African American community be upset about the verdict? Yes.

    The point of this is that just saying racism and this case doesn't really address anything because its too nebulous. There's too many facets that race is a part of in this case without being specific and I don't think very many really still think that GZ is a full on racist anymore and haven't for awhile. I think quite a few people still think he profiled based on race though and that TM was doing nothing wrong at the time of the 911 call other than being suspiciously black and in a hoodie.
     
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  33. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    He never chased. By LAW, he was allowed to carry. Your red herrings are worthless. GZ was acquitted. This was never about race, according to the FBI and Governor. I realize that the race baiters are angry that a black person was killed by a non-black person. If they had protests every time a black was killed by another black maybe their outrage wouldn't seem so fake, contrived, and racist.
     
  34. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    Hmmm... A rash of break ins committed by, mostly, black men. I wouldn't call every shark in the ocean a man eater, I've even swam with sharks, however, I sure as hell will "profile" a great white. Profiling has just recently become bad. If 90% of cars are stolen by Asian teens then I'd want Asian teens watched more carefully. It is what it is. This is real life. Young black men commit a lot of the crime in this country. Just whose fault is that?
     
  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    He did chase. This really has to stop. TM ran away FROM GZ who then ran AFTER TM. That is chasing.

    He is allowed to carry by law, no one is debating that, I don't know why you people keeping screaming that. He's not supposed to carry it while on watch though and carrying it while chasing someone can make his actions assault.
     
  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I am shocked that is your stance. Shocked. No really, shocked.

    Yawn.
     
  37. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    wasn't the investigation still ongoing when the protests started?
     
  38. Firesole

    Firesole Season Ticket Holder

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    I don't recall Zimmerman ever stating that he himself ran at any time during the incident.

    And I also thought that Zimmerman was on his way to Target when he first saw TM. He wasn't patrolling the neighborhood at the time I believe, so there should be nothing wrong with being legally armed.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  39. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    Great point. He was on the way to Target. From the phone call it seems like GZ at least jogged. However, it was after TM already ran and got out of GZs sight. GZ never chased anyone. It's clear from the call that he was trying to see which way TM went. He never intended to catch TM.

    I don't remember all the details, but the defense showed how, by using the phone calls GZ and TM made, you could determine that TM lost GZ right off the bat, but decided to go back instead of home. Again, TM tried to be a badass and brought fists to a gun fight.
     
  40. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I didn't think so.
     
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