1) the dolphins are looking for Ryan to have better ball placement, and more leadership to be able to elevate other guys play in crunch time. 2) Talked about the footwork of Reshad jones, said safety's usually do not have feet like this guy..both he and sapp agreed...stud muffin. 3) said that the ball didn't touch the ground on every attempt made to Mr Hartline..said he was very impressive..( hmm didn't hear that type of context from local media guys) 4) Talked about our front 7, it's weapon laced, faster, and with multiple guys who can rush the Qb, dangerous..nothing we don't know.but he seemed impressed. As far as the leadership goes, there's a reason why Ryan sought out the master Pennington, I couldn't think of two polar opposites, but I thought it was a good move on his part.. Hopefully Wallace understands that even if he's not catching passes he's still getting paid, and his dynamic speed is still creating opportunities for everyone else.its important for him to have patience even though the locals don't.. Saw a clip of Hartline twisting up Richard Marshall's feet badly, would of been 6. Showed a couple clips of Dion on the dummy bag, looked aggressive and freely using his shoulder. Oh, and I saw in the background this swim move by Odrick that was just unbelievable..I can't believe he's been playing at defensive end since being drafted, his hands are lethal on the inside..hong kong phuey is back.
Watching Jeff Darlington on finsiders last night, he said Tannehill is the leader, and will be captain.....and interestingly compared him to Cam Newton.....saying Cam was forced into the "captain" role because of his position, not because he was the leader......Tannehill will be captain and its because he IS THE CAPTAIN....not because its a direct correlation between the position he plays and where he "should" be. I loved that!
I think our front 7 can be great. I see a lot of speed and potential pass rush there. I think they play well moving forward and most are good tacklers. I think the speed and tackling ability is upgraded from last season. I think we lost a bit in coverage in that group, but I think that as a whole the group is better. By that I mean I think they're likely to stop more conversions and get off the field more often. I also think that we have a couple of play makers in the secondary in Jones and Grimes. I believe that the most effective NFL defense comes from a strong pass rush in front of guys with the instincts and ability to get the TO opportunities that pass rush will provide. I think that in Jones and Grimes we may finally have some guys back there that can do that. (Marshall could also provide some plays, but my impression is that he's better moving forward than anything else. I see him as a less well rounded play maker than the other two). I don't have much issue with RT's ball placement. IMO it's generally very good. He missed some passes when his footwork wavered, but in those cases he generally missed by a lot. When he was on and in balance his ball placement was excellent. I also don't agree with the criticism that he locks on to receivers. In my experience that criticism is generally indicative of poor analysis. Sure, QBs can lock on too much, but in today's quick passing game that's what you usually do b/c you don't have time to look off before a quick pass. Often that's just the result of a receiver not getting open or to his spot. What I think RT does too much of is hold the ball. Some of that is developing timing and trust with his receivers, but it's on RT too. He has to know when it's time throw or to move on to the next option. IMO that's really the only difference between him and the other young QBs. It's basically experience. The two areas I want to see RT improve on are his footwork and decision making. He had a tendency to fall away from pressure and throw off balance too much. And he held the ball too long and/or waited too long on the receiver. Experience affects both of those as does adjusting to the speed of the game. I want to see strides in those areas. I want him to anticipate bad situations better and more quickly decide when to throw it away, run or scramble to create space to throw/buy time. IMO Hartline is a very under rated receiver by much of the board. He does so much well, but too many are fixated only on what he doesn't do well.
Raf, I like your analysis of Tanny. One thing that we need to keep in mind about his situation, like you said, sometimes in this particular offense, the QB does "hold onto the ball" and "lock onto receivers" based on the nature of the quick strike offense. I'm not a film study type guy, but it's likely that some of the problems he faced last season and into the beginning of this one is that the receivers, in fact, aren't getting to the spot they are supposed to be and at the time they are supposed to be there. The entire passing offense in a WC/hybrid WC that Sherman runs is based on the receivers being at a particular spot and at a particular time in the process of the play. IOW, the first read is at a spot early in the process of the play and the second read is at his particular spot at a little later period of time in the play...it's not complicated, but it's very exact. Now with several new components added (Keller, Wallace, Gibson, Miller, as well as some of the younger WRs learning the nuances of the offense. I think this is a bit of a concern for Wallace, given his already self-admitted propensity to lose focus. One thing you can say about Jerry Rice is that he NEVER lost focus, probably why he's considered the greatest WR of all time... I don't think there is any doubt that Tanny knows as much or more than any other player on the field as to the purpose and mechanisms of this O. It'll take time for the newer guys (albeit, not inexperienced for the most part) to get on the same page as Tanny is with the O.... If you had to draw things out to formulate an offense, you'd want the QB to be the most knowledgeable in your offense... We at least have that. Still Tanny and co. has to make it happen, but there is certainly reason for optimism...
I know you're not a huge fan of PFF, but they had some numbers about last season which involved what they call "time to throw". It turns out that Tannehill was 30th in amount of time to throw, meaning he had the third least amount of time to throw. I wanna say it was under 2.5 seconds. They also showed what the QB rating was for guys who had 3.0 seconds or longer. If RTIII (Alex gets credit for this moniker) has 3.0 seconds or more his rating shoots up into the 90's I believe (or 89-ish, can't remember). I guess my question is, how does this rectify with your assessment that he holds the ball too long? Is that PFF is just PFF, or do those number not really relate to what you're saying?
take that first paragraph, and add Dion Jordan. when it comes to accuracy..he has fine arm talent and accuracy, there are other variables that can improve around him, he could stay the same and the percentage will improve..obviously quicker footwork, and quicker reaction time as to when to escape will increase those numbers as well.. For me with Ryan it's about being decisive with his athleticism, he's not agile in the open field, he can't just make instinctual athletic decisions that some others can make, it's not there, he has to sense it quicker and get out of trouble.
Well now, I agree with Wilcotts, THill has spotty ball placement, it shows up in streaks at times, to me it is his one weakness. That is not to say the ball is uncatchable or easily intercepted, rather a bigger play is to be had and THill just misses them by 8 inches due to poor ball placement. Especially down around the goal line and at the intermediate depth of say 12-20 yds, short and long passes he is fine on. As for the D, the real key is just creating turnovers and Cb's who have more awareness of the ball coming in, our guys consistently just do (or did) not get their heads turned around in time to make the play.
I completely agree that the receives were part of the problem. It seems to me that Wallace, Gibson and Keller were specifically brought in to improve our receiving core's ability to get in position quicker. That was what struck me about Gibson when I watched the film of him. At first I was real lukewarm on the signing, but as I watched him I saw a specific ability to get his body between the DB and the ball and do it lightning fast. I don't think it's a fluke that he's been among the best in third down conversions for the last couple of years. Wallace is obviously quick and fast and Keller is clearly quicker than Fasano. I think that even if RT does not improve at all from last year (I expect he will of course), that his production will be better just b/c the targets will make things easier.
I would tend to trust PFF's ability to run a stop watch. I just don't trust their ability to explain why or what the number means. I expect that if the Dolphins run the offense they want that RT will always hold the ball less, on average, than most QBs. They want him to get rid of the ball quickly most of the time. So I don't care what the average is. I expect it to be low relative to most teams. The problem RT encounters is that he'll wait until the rush is on him before making the decision to bail on the play or the receiver. You want him to stand tall in the pocket, but you also want him to know when to move on to a better option. He needs to anticipate when the D has the play diagnosed and it probably won't work. Read that the DB is playing to stop the route that's called or the rush is likely to get there before the play will develop. Part of that can be figured out before hand and the play can be changed, but sometimes the clues come late and you have to anticipate and adjust during the play. I think that's where his experience deficiency shows up. And I think that's what DJ reads as lack of athletic decisions. I don't see an athletic deficiency. I think the other guys just see it sooner and have more time to react.
DJ - I thought the same thing when I saw that Odrick swim move yesterday! I think he's going to go beast-mode inside pass coverage this year! As far as RT, I think maybe he is holding onto the ball in practice possibly to fix routes that people are running as well. If these guys learning his offense are still adjusting, he has to adjust and correct as well... Just a thought.
How, as a former scout, do you determine how much of that is based on lack of experience and how much is based on the bum knee, the limited surrounding talent and the fact that the staff limited him to the pocket as much as possible? For example, do you think its like 5 parts experience, 1 part injury, 1 part talent & 1 part coaching?
it was dare I say, a Hulkish swim move, clean as you've ever seen, perfect hand usage, and he moved his feet while doing so upfield.. I'm not taking anything serious as it pertains to Ryan, ive seen him practice live 4 times, I've seen how different Philbins practices are, there's no way in my mind he can show signs of regression in practice, he has innate accuracy, that, and his arm strength are his best two traits imo, so fwiw, with a better conditioned Tannehill, stronger, quicker, which I guarantee he is, all that pundits are seeing is him waiting on his new receivers, Gibson, Keller, Wallace, Sims, Miller to get with the program..he's totally in control.. I'm only trying to understand Ryan's ceiling.
Quickness is part. The other is reliability. That's beating the jam (Hartline), and consistency in footwork to get to the same spot the same way at the same time, time-after-time (Cyndi Lauper reference). If quickness is a big factor, I'd hope Jasper Collins would emerge as a good option here (4.07 short shuttle). I'd love to see him practice squadded this season and on the 53 next season. He needs to work on his skillset.
Yes. This is why it is CRITICAL not to allow him to run too often, as he will be able to lean on that rather than 'learn to swim' y getting through his progressions. Once he has the ablitiy to quickly diagnose the D, then go 1-2-3 in progressions... that's when you let the boy run if he sees nothing. Right now, I think he gets stuck too long on looking for his #1 to open up, then jumps to the checkdown. I hate to say it, but that was something Henne never got past. In fairness, Henne also had VERY conservative coaching. He was brought along by "Don't let the QB hurt you" Henning.
Yup. If Ryan had gotten to sit for three or four years and learn... Wow. We have to remember it took Rogers years to become Rogers. Honestly, my only three requirements to have increased hope for Ryan are: 2:1 TD:INT ratio this season 20+ TDs Come through in the fourth quarter at least 50% of the time. (i.e. throw more TDs than INTs in games where we are coming from behind by 10 points or less, or lead by 7 points or less).
you say this and then suggest that RT is not a leader, you've suggested this a couple of times. I don't see that. I think he is one of those with a natural leadership ability, people naturally follow him. I think he sought out Penny for suggestions on how to refine his skills and be a more effective leader. people watching the practices have confirmed this to me saying how he is in control and Darlington comparing him to Cam being forced and RT being a natural selection. this is his team, he will only get better from here as he grows in his role.
Sheesh fellas, THill is an unknown, he basically equaled the number of games started in college in one season in the NFL, he flashed and fizzled, he was a rookie Qb tossed in the fire. Suspect we will see a more decisive and more athletic Qb this season, think his knee was injured worse then we knew about at the time and that limited the offense.
I don't want to get into another circular argument, but you're continuing to act as if lack of experience, a bad knee, poor surrounding skill talent and a coaching staff purposely limiting the QB, has no bearing on improvisation and agility. This is the one area, where I simply do not understand your stubbornness in refusing to make the connection. A QB can only move around in the pocket, break out of the pocket or get rid of the ball to buy time. Those are the only real options and each of those are severely limited by the things I mentioned, but you simply won't let them carry any weight in your evaluation.
He's totally in control of the offense..I mention leadership because the kind I'm talking about goes beyond the command of the X's and O's..and I haven't said he can't become that, just that I think he's doing the right thing by reaching out and trying to be a sponge.
I'd rather Tannehill get some gunsliger influence. If he's hesitant to release because he's unsure, holding it too long, or waiting til guys have already gotten open before winding up... he needs more of a Marino/Favre influence than a heady guy like Pennington, imo. Keep in mind, Pennington mentored Henne and Henne developed these same habits. Just sayin'.
well, if you don't respect that I know the difference between what specifically I'm talking about and what the same specific trait looks like when its limited by injury, inadequate receivers, and coaching, then you may be the one going in circles with me.
Hopefully that Tannehill will get some gunslinger experience. Along with being patient. Plus just really developing!
Just to get the credit right, Cyndi Lauper co-wrote that song with Rob Hyman (anyone, anyone...?) of Hooters fame. The Hooters were a decent little 80's band with a few popular songs to their credit: And We Danced; All You Zombies; Where Do the Children Go?; among others. Okay, so nobody cares (and I'm a wannabe know-it-all). Back to Tannehill, like Raf says, RT should have a jump just by having better receivers/weapons, but I also expect him to take a big stride just with experience and having that year in the NFL. Certainly, I think his yards passing will increase and his TD:INT ratio will be much better than his rookie year. I will agree with Wilcots in that the Dolphins really want to see that leadership manifest itself late in close games. I don't recall many games besides the Seahawks game last year where RT led comebacks, and I also am pretty sure that was a big question coming out of college because he didn't lead A&M to too many come-from-behind wins. Obviously, there can be reasons for that, especially last year, like not having a great receiving corps and pedestrian receiving TEs, for the most part, as well as leakage in the line. But, it was an unanswered question coming into the NFL, and it remains that. Bottom line, I do think Tannehill is going to look and perform a lot better, but he is going to have to come up big late in games to really be considered a top-notch quarterback. (Which I think he'll be exactly that after this year... but that's just one man's opinion and not worth that much.)
This has nothing to do with respect. No one has the ability to accurately determine what a person is capable of with that many extreme limiting variables.
I disagree with this. You're heavily taking what the Hartline critics said of out context. Hartline is very much appreciated by most of this board WHEN he doesn't have to be relied upon as the primary receiver. Why should any Hartline critic have to be fixated on what he does well when what he doesn't do well contributed to our lack of scoring last year? What we were "fixated on" pertained solely to him as the offense's top 2012 target receiving a ridiculous 26% of all pass attempts yet offering little scoring ability and disappearing in the redzone. That might be acceptable for a #2 or #3 receiver but it's NOT ok for a team's top target b/c at some point you have to score touchdowns. You can argue till you're blue in the face that a WR not being a scoring threat has little bearing on an offense's ability to get in the endzone, b/c at the end of the day the fact remains- we had trouble scoring last year and Hartline's lone TD most certainly didn't help matters. We Hartline critics NEVER argued he was a bad receiver. We argued against the false notion that he's an acceptable #1 receiver as a handful of posters like Shouright were vehemently putting forth, and we argued against the false notion he's some sort of special vertical threat. That's it. Now, did we or did we not sign Mike Wallace? So obviously our feelings had merit so please stop taking it out of context.
Aaron Rodgers has one of the quickest releases and possibly best passing feet in the game, both of which contribute strongly to the caliber of QB he is from a physical standpoint. If something keeps Tannehill from developing into an Aaron Rodgers it'd most likely be this b/c there's a little bit of a gap that needs bridging.
That's a good point, and I have left room in my evaluation of Ryan because of how raw he truly is, on numerous occasions I have talked about how I think it's actually unprecedented what he did in college changing positions, to never being a drop back Qb in high school, to becoming a first round pick, then starting his rookie season..Where Fin gets a bit frustrated with me is because at the same time, I'm thinking I know where his ceiling is with this trait (which is better than what we saw last year), yet I'm conscious that some more exp will get him better in that dept, how much relative to the ones who are elite at it, we'll see this year.
Aaron Rodgers? Sure that's a ceiling. That's a ceiling for any QB. How do you compare them at equal times in their careers? Years in the league? Well Aaron is sitting for the first four years. Years starting? Well Tannehill doesn't stand a chance. We can compare him to Mark Sanchez who had a small amount of career starts in College and started his rookie year. I'd bet on Tannehill. Although to be fair to Mark his years #2 and 3 weren't terrible. You just didn't see any potential large scale improvement there. I don't bet on him improving like I did when Drew Brees had subpar 2nd and 3rd years.
It's possible to respect someone and their abilities without thinking they are always correct. I respect your analysis DJ but I often disagree. Doesn't mean I don't find you insightful and agree often times as well. I think that is how it is for most members with everyone.
My point is and has always been, there are no more variables when it comes to individual playmaking ability, hence the word Individual, it is a pure solo act, at least as close as one could ask for, I do understand an injury can inhibit this trait, but not to the point where it fools me.
I also think that you take my criticism of this trait and generalize my overall opinion of him..I think he is going to play better this year, i think he will be better in all facets, all I'm doing is trying to find out how much better do I think he will play one day, relative to the other young great qbs..
im not saying he has to agree with me, but it seems as if some are telling me I don't know what I'm seeing or not seeing, I feel very confident in what I'm looking at..if one chooses to tell me I can't say that because I'm not taking into account certain variables, then I would tell them their not giving me enough credit, because Ive already done that before I made my take.
The real answer is you make a wild a** guess. LOL But that WAG is based on what you've seen in the past. It appeared to me that RT would usually know where he wanted to go initially and that he would then go through his progressions. He wasn't really locking on to one receiver. But sometimes when he expected the receiver was about to break free he'd seem to wait and get into trouble. IMO he would wait too long. I think if you look at Wilson, he's one of the best at anticipating and knowing when to move on. He's not any quicker than RT (probably slower). But he has so much more experience. My guess is that it's mostly the lack of experience and the supporting cast. Adjusting to the speed of the game is in there, but I think that's part of the experience factor. I think the coaching was the third factor (they didn't want him to run, but he could have thrown it away). I think that the injury was more of a factor when he tried to run and couldn't.
