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Okay no seriously...what's plan B if Martin isn't good enough?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LBsFinest, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bravo Zulu, rev.

    Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2
     
  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm gonna trust Jim turner on this one, at least for a couple games,, he knows what a real left tackle is supposed to look like, and Martin hasn't been moved off his position..so lets gets some preseason games on film so we can isolate him and see the improvement.
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    There's definitely a lot of negative buzz about Jon Martin today. Andrew Abramson wrote a piece on him and even Greg Cote wrote a column. Barry Jackson noted the two sacks Dion Jordan had on Martin last night. Now Armando just wrote a column.

    Here's the thing. For me, all that's happened is good. Dion Jordan said he got only ten reps in the scrimmage, and I'm sure at least half were against second and third stringers. And last night, he's still mostly working with second and third string, so I doubt he got all that many reps against the first string last night. What I'm getting at is that on a bare handful of plays against the first team over a two day stretch, he's produced four sacks.

    That's really pretty incredible.

    It's bad for Jon Martin for sure, but that's not relevant to me at this point in time. I already figured Jon Martin was going to suck this year. You've heard me complaining about this for months and months, that the Dolphins look like they're going to move their weakest offensive lineman from a year ago to the most important position on the offensive line and I just...don't...get...that. I've never bought this faith that he was going to be like night and day compared with last year. In my experience, that happens a lot less frequently than people think. Even when they think it's happened, I often find that a thorough film view of the guy in the prior year uncovers the truth, which is that he was pretty good the previous year too but just under appreciated. Changes tend to happen more gradually than people think. So while people can talk about the improvements to his body, etc...I never expected "night and day" improvement in 2013, especially the first half of the year.

    So that was already built in, for me. What I didn't know is how good Dion Jordan would be as a pass rusher right away in the NFL, and being honest we still don't know that. I'm not saying we know that now. But we have some pretty damn positive indications and that's a good thing.
     
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  5. FinsUp

    FinsUp New Member

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    Personally I think he'll be fine. It's still early. Strength was one of the things he needed to work on and from what we've heard, he's done that. Let's give him a few pre-season games before we jump out the window. Plus, as people have said already, they'll help him with a TE if he struggles. I think Jerry's injury and the shuffling as a result, is more of the reason why the line has struggled recently. People cried about Long, but he was awful in Philbin's scheme last season before his injury.
     
  6. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Defenses on average send 4 rushers. There often is a numbers advantage for the offensive line with just 5. But even using extra blockers isn't really anything that is debilitating to an offense necessarily. Obviously it isn't ideal, but its pretty common, even amongst the best teams.
     
  7. Finrunner

    Finrunner Season Ticket Holder

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    In today's instant-gratification world, it's sometimes tough to stay on track and do the right thing. Far too often in the NFL, we're willing to throw the baby out with bath water if the baby ain't swimming soon enough ("biting as pups", etc.). Conversely, however, if you see early you've "made a huge mistake" (to borrow from Arrested Development), sometimes it is better to cut bait and run. Often, though, perseverance and coaching pay off.

    The GM/coaches have taken a calculated risk with Jonathan Martin. The player is obviously still learning his craft, working on techiniques, getting stronger, etc. He'll have to do that every year in the NFL, and improve every year. But the kid has gotten stronger over the off-season, so he is being professional and working hard.

    I'm reminded of when the Dolphins drafted Wade Smith (T) in the first round. He started 16 games and wasn't very good at all. It was tough to watch. And the express to run him out of town started quickly. It was a while before the team did, but the Dolphins ended up giving up on him. Now, it's taken a while, a position switch, and a roundabout way for him to get there, but Wade Smith has started every game the last three seasons for the Texans and he's been a pretty good guard. In his two seasons before that with the Chiefs, he was pretty decent in the second half of the year. He's now had an eleven-year career.

    Speaking of the Texans, Duane Brown is another case, perhaps similar, perhaps not. He was drafted low in the first round by the Texans, but a lot of folks called it a reach. As a rookie, he gave up 11 sacks, and people were calling bust. But the guy worked and worked, and the team hung with them confident in their original assessment, and it's paid off. Brown is a very good tackle in this league.

    Martin was bad last year, yes. Almost by default, he'll be better this year, but we hope more than just marginally. Still, the coaches are watching everything the fans are, and they certainly don't seem to be in a state of panic. Paul13 had a pretty good post earlier in the thread stating many ways how the team could help if needed, but maybe, just maybe, Martin could be okay. If he's "okay" this year, I'll take it. That'd be huge progress, and if he continued on a path of going from terrible to okay in one season, good things could be ahead the years after that. We shall see.
     
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  8. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    Put this in the practice thread but ill put it here too


    This is why things like twitter should have never been invented. "We're talkin bout practice" so much hating on Martin over a few tweets. Practice shouldn't be open to the public IMO, it just leads to this nonsense.

    Let the players practice. Get pissed during a game, sure. But let's wait and see if the plan they have in place works out or not.

    Rest assured, Philbin and Ireland have more riding on Martin then you do.
     
  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If you're comparing Jon Martin to Wade Smith, then I agree...Jon Martin may indeed have a future at left GUARD.
     
  10. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I didn't think the Dolphins should have signed Long for the type of money he was asking for. I just figured that if Long left, Ireland would have had a better plan for LT than moving Martin there on a full time basis. To me, the LT position is now the weakest position on the entire team. I just hope that Ireland is able to make a trade before the regular season begins to upgrade from Martin.

    As bad as Long may have played due to injuries the past few seasons, he is still a far better LT than Martin. I really don't need to watch a few pre-season games to know Martin isn't a very good player in the NFL. I had 16 regular season games last year to watch Martin and I was not impressed at all. His ranking as the 76th rated tackle in the NFL out of 80 tackles, clearly shows his ability as an NFL player. I don't if he will be rated much higher once the 2013 season is complete.
     
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  11. Finrunner

    Finrunner Season Ticket Holder

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    And that may end up being the case. But better ending up with a better-than serviceable left guard than an empty draft pick.

    I still want to see how he performs this year at tackle, before that step would be taken.
     
  12. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Its important to keep in mind that this was with Jon Martin at LT, and Nate Garner at RT. Martin is certainly not as good as Jake Long, but Tyson Clabo is a better RT than this team had at any point last year.

    Another thing that probably shouldn't be overlooked is the type of pass-rushers Martin is going to go up against this season. He sure looked bad against Aldon Smith, but how many of those will he actually face this year? Is someone Osi Umenyiora really good enough to take over a game, to the point where we are saying Jon Martin lost it for Miami?

    Thats why I think that Martin really only costs Miami a game or two. It might be one of the Bills games, or the Bengals game. But even then, are either of those defenses good enough to the point that you can't figure out a way to help Martin? I just don't see many games where Jon Martin is going to have to single-block an elite pass-rusher.
     
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  13. Phins_Fan_87

    Phins_Fan_87 Phins and Heat fan Club Member

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    Get albert.
     
  14. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If Martin costs you a game or two then that's the difference between maybe making the playoffs or not.

    If one guy is so bad that his mere presence causes you to miss the playoffs then you say goodbye to the man who picked him and didn't upgrade the spot.

    (First semi-bash of Ireland in monhts, feels good)
     
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  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Last year Tannehill with only Hartline, Bess & Fasano to throw to...while being forced to stay in the pocket by coaches:

    - had a 96.5 QB rating when he had over 2.5 seconds to throw and he only had that for 39.8% of his drop backs.
    - had a 67.5 QB rating when he had less than 2.5 seconds to throw and he had that for 57.9% of his drop backs.

    I find it hard to believe, that with the infusion of skill talent we cannot pick up a HALF SECOND of time on even just 25% more drop backs.
     
  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yet the delta in the pressures was statistically directly tied with the increase in pressure from the left tackle. Literally when you go from a pressure ever 3.5 plays to a pressure ever 2.9 plays you're talking about an increase in pressures per play by 6 percent (~28% to ~34%). You look at plays Long allowed a pressure per snap (4.9%) and you look at the plays Martin allowed a pressure per snap (11.4%) and that 6.5% increase directly accounts for the 6% increase in pressured plays per pass snap.

    So the data actually indicates that the line from LG to RT (including Garner) did better in pass pro during the 5 games but that Martin more than made up for it.

    But yes I do expect an upgrade at right tackle compared with what Miami had during those 5 games.

    It's a myth that Martin only allowed pressure to Aldon Smith. Aldon didn't even account for the bulk of the pressure I think. Martin allowed pressures to guys like Jason Babin, Kyle Moore, Trevor Scott, Rob Ninkovich, Chandler Jones, Justin Francis and I believe also Jermaine Cunningham.

    And if you're asking me whether he's going to see pass rushers this year that compare with them...yes I think so. He'll certainly see Chandler Jones again, twice. He'll see Barkevious Mingo and Paul Kruger. He'll see Robert Mathis and Bjoern Werner. He'll see Osi Umenyiora. He'll see Terrell Suggs, Pernell McPhee and Courtney Upshaw. He'll see some Mario Williams. He'll see Michael Johnson. He'll see Dwight Freeney. He'll see Greg Hardy. He'll see Quinton Coples and Antwan Barnes. He'll see Jarvis Jones.

    Are we really pretending that's going to be a cake walk?

    I agree with you on it only costing 1 or 2 games. But when we're talking about a player that will literally only represent about 4% of the team costing you that much, that's pretty significant.
     
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  17. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Thought this was a good point....


    It's like trying to replace Sparano, then saying he was your first choice all along. lol.
     
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  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That's not true.

    We weren't trying to replace Martin. Martin was going to be one of our starting tackles no matter which one of those we signed.

    Clabo was not our first choice.
     
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  19. GreenMonster

    GreenMonster New Member

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    Is there any chance some team will cut someone or be willing to trade anyone that would be an upgrade?
     
  20. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

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    Martin has to be better than last year,not going to make the probowl but can improve with time.It would help if they could keep five guys out there without that dreaded injury thing.
     
  21. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Huh? You're essentially saying every GM of non-playoffs teams should be fired. This logic literally applies to 20 teams every year.
     
  22. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    So us being talked about for 3 Left Tackles (Long, Albert, McKinney) as our first choices had nothing to do with us thinking we had a problem with Martin at Left Tackle? We got involved with two top-dollar LTs when we were confident we had a capable LT?
     
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  23. WhiteIbanez

    WhiteIbanez Megamediocremaniacal

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    Keep in mind they were also interested in Winston which means they entertained the idea of moving J Mart over.
    They weren't going to overspend for a high dollar LT as you call it. That is obvious.
     
  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Those guys were preferable at the right price. I don't think their attitude was "find someone better than Martin at any cost".
     
  25. HULKFish

    HULKFish Artist and Scribe

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    I trust Philbin to coach the players on the field. I also believe that his offense doesn't depend on any one piece. Why the emphasis on RB's blocking? There you go... Why make the H-back formation and emphasis on FB? There you go... Martin gets the job done, or he gets a little help from his friends. He gets by with a little help from his friends? Does he need anybody?
     
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  26. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    Every team has weaknesses and I don't understand why some feel we must be different. It's the nature of the game. Our weaknesses are RB, RG, LT, and CB2... and RB/LT are more uncertainties than weaknesses IMO. We could be in a lot worse shape.
     
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  27. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They sniffed around Right Tackles with almost the same level of interest- Tyson Clabo, Winston Justice, Eric Winston
     
  28. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Also, who's to say how much we really got involved with Albert? For all we know, the interest could have ended at the first phone call. Everyone seemed to be reporting differently on how far trade talks actually went.
     
  29. Dolphrank

    Dolphrank New Member

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    I can deal with Sammy Watkins.... Just as long as we aren't trading for Danny Watkins.
     
  30. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What pass rusher has crippled a QB since Theisman?

    David Diehl never started at LT and slid over for the Giants and was one of the worst LT's that year. That year the Patriots went 18-1. Having a great LT is a luxury, not essential. Last I checked Tannehill doesn't have concrete blocks for feet.
     
  31. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It was just a joke, but as a retort, would you want your QB mentally rattled the whole game due to fear that there's a higher chance he gets smacked from his blindside on any given snap?
     
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  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't recall David Diehl being one of the very worst offensive tackles in football in 2007. Certainly wasn't even close to being true in 2008.
     
  33. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    screws to the you man.... you. you. dream crusher.
     
  34. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    No siree Bob. That was more about draft talk than thinking Martin is done. If Chris and I are already starting to familiarize ourselves with 2014 prospects we're not gonna ignore looking at the left tackle position just because Martin was a 2nd rounder last year, and I don't think Miami's scouts will either.
     
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  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Don't worry, we can pick Sammy Watkins up in the 2nd round. ;)
     
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  36. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    You really missed your calling as a grief counselor, Chris.
     
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  37. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    It's a sack party! Vernon and Jordan popping bottles right now
     
  38. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Just checkin, we can't afford any defections this time of year.

    FTR I'm the one who was banging the drum for OL picks in the 1st and 2nd round back in April, in order to field an elite OL this season. One of the few who wasn't interested in Tavon or Eifert. And you can forget about a blue chip OT in 2014, not b/c of Martin, because we won't be picking anywhere near high enough to take one :wink2:.
     
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  39. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Jesus, how soon we forget our dissatisfaction watching Henning's weekly max-protect where two receivers and a TE tried to get open against 6 guys covering them.
     
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  40. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    That is pretty much something that is in the QBs hands. Having a bad LT doesn't entail requisite max-protect packages either.
     
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