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Moving on from Keller

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by GMJohnson, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Keller is done, it's over. It's no use fretting about how he got hurt or if it was intentional or not. It's a waste of time for the team and IMO it's a waste of time for the forum. Time to move on.

    Philbin/Sherman have a major challenge on their hands. Sims will most likely assume the starting TE role but he's green as grass and will likely be a liability in blitz pickups/running hot routes. Clay is not a natural TE , moving him to there will create a liability both at TE and with Lane/Rodriguez or whoever replaces Clay as the FB/H-Back. The other option is to go 3 wide and insert Gibson into the starting lineup. I'm not sure RT and the OL are ready for the added complications that would come with that nor am I confident in the depth behind the top 3 receivers. Matthews doesn't look 100%, McNutt is clearly the coaches' choice as the 5th WR but how is he on special teams and can he be relied upon to spell the starters and/or fill in if one of them is injured?

    The good news is John Jerry should be ready soon and Daniel Thomas looked really good on Saturday. Losing Keller likely means more reliance on the running game (see new England) and both Jerry and Thomas are important factors there. Jerry should also be a big help in pass pro where Samuda is clearly struggling.

    More good news. Mike Wallace. Johnathan Joseph is no roody-poot DB. Wallace lost on the slant route in the first series but he was dynamite after that. He had five yards separation on the comeback route in drive 3 and soon after he ran right by Joseph for a big gain down the sideline. It would have been a TD if RT gave Wallace a better throw but RT made up for it throwing an absolute laser to Wallace for the TD. Those two guys will have to get even better acquainted than they already are b/c Wallace will now be relied upon to stretch the field and move the chains. Guys like me who thought Wallace creating space and making big plays would be enough were wrong.

    More good news. The defense, Fields and Caleb Sturgis. The offense will not have to put up big numbers in order to win games. 21-24 points from the O will be plenty provided they keep the TOs down and the clocking moving. Fatigue and elite talent will be the only things that give Jones, Ellerbe, Wake and co. any real trouble. Fields has saved the day many times, he's an elite punter when Johnathan Freeny isn't catching his kicks and nonchalantly walking into the end zone. Sorry, still sour about the San Fran game last year. Fields will make sure offenses have a long way to go before they sniff the EZ, and if they do get there they'll face an improved version of the NFL's number one ranked RZ defense from 2012. Sturgis seems capable of shutting KO returns down to rare event as well as putting points on the board any time the offense can cross the 36-35 yard line.

    Couple clouds moving in, but the sky is not falling.
     
  2. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Arguably our 2nd best receiver is subtracted from a somewhat punchless offense, yeah, it's a big deal.

    I think Keller really can't be replaced per se, it's just to late in the process. What can be done is mixing and matching of the pieces we have now to replace his role/targets. Keller was a large target who was skilled at walling off defenders and presenting himself as a viable option.

    He could line up in line, in the slot, or out wide.

    Basically, Egnew is our best shot to replace most of those Wr type options, Clay or Sims to replace the over the middle stuff. Perhaps Thigpen can get the work in the Slot, it would be nice if Miller showed more as well as he figures to be on the field more.

    So to me, all eyes on Michael "eggnog" Egnew, no player is as natural a replacement for Keller currently on the roster.
     
  3. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I think Clay is the most natural replacement for Keller. They are the same size, about 6'3 and 245. Clay has been lining up everywhere Keller has. Inline Y, FB, H-Back. To me, the logical thing would leave Sims and Egnew in the same roles they have now, Clay replace Keller and Erod replace Clay.
     
  4. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    we can find size and speed to replace Keller, I just don't have faith that our guys can get open on a regular basis like Keller. he just had a knack for it, always has.
    it's up to the coaches to put them in a position to help Tannehill succeed. we'll see..
     
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  5. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I'm a huge fan of Clay, but agree, he just does not offer the same sort of skillset, Keller had a larger catch radius, and knew how to screen defenders, and was relatively sure handed.

    Clay is really not that player imo.
     
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  6. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Shot Gun - 4 WR's and a back. Miller/Thomas on pick up duty and verbal release patterns or Hot Routes. Tannehill is most effective out of the Shot Gun and your deepest in reciever. Gibson - Wallace - Hartline - Bumphis.

    Most if not all QB's prefer Shotgun, it allows the QB to start reading a coverage and a blitz immediately and Tannehill really seems to be more comfortable in it.

    It also, plays well to a weak line in that your best runs are mostly pass pro draws or shuttle passes. It does require the QB to know his best HOT ROUTE before the ball is snapped, in case of blitz. It really isn't that difficult as these are basic reads. If blitz from there then this / If blitz from there then that. ETC.

    Spread it out - IMO that is the best option without Keller.

    If your going to use tightends - do it in short yardage situations. The base offense should be Shot Gun / 4 wide and move those recievers in motion and line them up all over the place. It does require smart recievers, as they have to know when it is their assignment to cover up the tackle.
     
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I said in another thread, I don't think we'll see as much drop off as is feared. Keller was a good receiving TE, but he's not Gronk. He's not a unique target with unique ability. He was important because he's a type of TE that could actually do what we needed him to. We have similar TE types on the team, they just need to show they are competent.

    Mike Wallace is more important to the success of the TE position then Keller was important to the TE position, IMO.

    Having said all that it was absolutely a dirty hit.
     
  8. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I also see Clay as the natural replacement for Keller, although obviously he's a downgrade. I also think they'll go to more 3WR sets. In fact, that is exactly what they did when Keller first went down.
     
    Paul 13 likes this.
  9. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Do you guys think Rodriguez makes the team now?

    He was a former 4th round pick.
     
  10. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Keller going down was excellent news for Gibson. He'll see a lot more time now. Also our #4 WR (Bumphis?) is going to see some consistent action now also unless one of our receiving TE's steps it up.
     
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Yes. I think it will be him over Kyle.
     
  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah lets move on, browns lost their best weapon, our defense, with the addition of the free style game of jordan adding that unique layer to our already stout defense, Jamar Taylor adding explosiveness and attitude, Mike Wallace scaring fools in the secondary, let me tell ya, with that guy running around, Juan heron could do damage in the middle..Egnew should be alright, he's got athleticism to get down the middle and get his head and body turned around..
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here's something nice to hear to get your day goin a bit..

    Rafael..


    It's all about the defense..at this point I can envision Jordan's Role, and it's quite an illuminating image..he's gonna be the 2nd best player on defense the moment he steps on it..

    That observation is without The combined skillsets of Jordan and Taylor..
     
  14. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    I just feel for the guy, don't really care how it affects our gameplan. His career could very well be over, livelihood gone just like that. Don't see many injuries worse than the one he suffered - a lot like Sean Spence two years ago.
     
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    This is exactly what I think as well, what I wrote in the other thread yesterday.
     
  16. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    It sucks we lost Keller. But how many TE's have we drafted recently? If we're forced to go outside of the team, that says a lot about our drafting ability.
     
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We've drafted clay and Egnew in the past 3 years I believe, A 6th and 3rd..

    Big draft need next year.
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Forgetting Sims in the 4th round this year already?

    I thought James Walker said it best. He said that anyone can open up their owner's wallet and buy themselves a Dustin Keller or Jared Cook (or Martellus Bennett, IMO)...but the Dolphins have used 3rd, 4th and 6th round picks on the backups at the position and it's time to find out if they were wise with those picks. That's where a General Manager really makes his name in this league. If the Dolphins move on without missing a beat with a Charles Clay or Dion Sims (I think none of us really expect Egnew to become a premier player), that's going to be a nice feather in Ireland's cap.
     
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  19. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    Yeah, I know who we've drafted. I just think it looks bad if we need to sign someone (to start) after drafting 3 guys recently. As fans, we're able to bring up names of other TE's we think we should sign. Right now, There's really no one out there to sign. A trade would have to happen if we wanted a starter.
     
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  20. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    I'm really hoping this doesn't turn out to be a setback for Tannehill. Aside from the logistics of losing a good receiver, he didn't exactly make a great throw on that play and he's obviously still young so I hope this doesn't destroy his confidence.

    Everyone knows our offensive line is like swiss cheese right now and Tannehill is running for his life. Add in the fact that he just had to watch his security blanket get his knee shredded right before his eyes. I'm sure he went to bed second guessing that decision. I'm just hoping this doesn't turn into the second coming of David Carr, which would be ironic given the circumstances of our opponent.
     
  21. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Agree with the overall sentiment that the three drafted TE's will have to replace Keller in combination. First, it will be Clay. He's the one with the most experience and the most position flexibility. However, his drop off in speed from Keller is fairly significant. As CK pointed out, Keller had this innate ability to get from point A to point B quickly. Where we'll miss him the most is the seam threat. Especially with our offensive line struggles and Tannehill's hesitancy at times to pull the trigger. Clay's going to be a shade slower, translating to two to four tenths down the seam? That's a big deal to our young quarterback. A receiver who can get open in the seam faster makes the safety late. Egnew and Rodriguez MIGHT be able to do a serviceable job in this area of the field. I don't think Sims can do it, he can barely get in and out of his breaks at the moment.
     
  22. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Losing Keller is a big blow. The coaching staff seemed to be particularly intent on utilizing two TE formations. I'm a Charles Clay fan, but if your two best TEs are Sims and Clay, then I can't imagine 2 TE formations will be used as often as the staff hoped. Hopefully Clay and especially Egnew can exceed expectations and make us forget about losing Keller.
     
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  23. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    I just don't see Clay making that same play early in the Jags game down the seam.
     
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  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    my bad, a fifth, and a sixth and a third..

    All three have made the team, lets see what they got..
     
  25. Dolphrank

    Dolphrank New Member

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    4.69-Clay
    4.53-Keller
    4.62-Egnew
    4.75-Sims

    40 Times...Didn't realize Sims was that slow.
     
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  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Me neither, I think he's a bit stiff trying to show his numbers.
     
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  27. Finrunner

    Finrunner Season Ticket Holder

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    This has sort of been said already, but the trait that Dustin Keller possesses that Charles Clay to this point, and certainly Michael Egnew, haven't displayed is pure football instinct. He "feels" the game differently than the younger players we have, and he probably always has. It's what likely made Dustin Keller a first round pick, while guys like Egnew and Clay with similar builds and athleticism were later round choices. Keller's been productive in the NFL since his first season, whereas that production hasn't been seen nearly as much with Clay and not at all from Egnew (except somewhat in preseason games).

    Short-term, I don't think any of the guys we have fill Keller's shoes, but I do think their development will be accelerated, which isn't all bad. Like some have stated, Clay is the most obvious choice to take Keller's role. Hopefully, the more playing time, the effect Mike Wallace has opening the middle of the field, and the improvement of Ryan Tannehill all factor into Clay contributing big-time to the Dolphins offense in the role. Then, we'll probably see more of Gibson, more of the backs in the passing offense, which does seem to be coming around.

    While the injury almost has to be devastating to Dustin Keller, it certainly doesn't cripple the Dolphins offense by any means. It doesn't help Tannehill's development that Keller was hurt, but RT seems like he's on the come anyway (to my untrained eyes), so I'm not sure how much it hinders it either. It's a hurdle, but in all likelihood just a speed bump in our progress. So while I'm sick for Dustin Keller, who I think was primed to have a monster year, I'm still excited by the potential of the Dolphins offense. I think we're going to surprise.
     
  28. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Rodriguez, 4.58
     
  29. Dolphrank

    Dolphrank New Member

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    Wow. I don't know a whole lot about Rodriguez... Good hands? Run decent routs? From what I understand he plays mostly FB right? Does he have TE exp. while in CHI?
     
  30. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Numbers at Temple

    69 catches for 871 yards with seven TDs in 35+ games.
     
  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I think he's going to be the big surprise this year.
     
  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Dude. I said 4th round. Dion Sims was drafted at the top of the 4th round.

    You have your coffee yet today?
     
  33. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree Clay is the natural replacement, and is a downgrade from Keller. I just think that margin may not be as big as some make it out to be. Clay has ability, he just needs to become more consistent. I think he's already a better blocker than Keller. I also think Gibson will play into it, which would have happened even if Keller hadn't been injured.

    They did go to 3, 4, and 5-wide when Keller went down. All the way until it was 1st and goal. However, they were also in shotgun on every one of those downs. Which leads me to believe that they wanted to work on that package during that series, and Keller's injury may have had little to do with it. Besides... in a previous drive, when the score was tied up at 7, they came out in 2-wide, 2-TE formations with Sims and Clay as the TEs. This was before the Keller injury. That drive fell short due to a TFL on a run followed by an overthrow to Hartline on a 3rd and 14.

    My point is... Keller is a loss. I just don't think it's a 'huge' loss. I'm sure there will be a situation during the season where Clay or Sims make a mistake, and anyone could say that Keller would have made a better play. I just don't think, in the long run, the Dolphins will go 8-8 instead of 9-7 because Keller is on IR. They still have guys who can move the chains and score.

    I think Tannehill and the OL will, ultimately, determine the fate of the offense a lot more than Keller would have.
     
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  34. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sims is 6' 5", 262lbs. How big are the other TEs? What did Zach Ertz and Gavin Escobar run?

    Sims also had a 35" vertical, and ran a 4.68 at his pro day. For his size, his numbers are very impressive. Don't discount that 4.75.
     
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  35. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Keller made Sanchez look competent all those years.

    Sent from my phone using Fapatalk 2
     
  36. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Sanchez looked competent?
     
  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think of Dion Sims as more of a straight line athlete than anything else. I'm not sure yet what he's going to provide the offense. He intrigues me on deep verticals where he doesn't have to cut and can use his straight line athleticism, size, jumping power and hands to make plays. But when he's not on the deep vertical, you wonder how well he's going to be able to run the routes that Dustin Keller ran so well with the Jets and in his short time with the Dolphins...little stick routes and flat routes and whatnot.
     
  38. thisperishedmin

    thisperishedmin Well-Known Member

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    This is the part thats bumming me out...I liked Keller - he bummed me out as a Jet because he was good and dynamic...I was very excited to have him on our team, and hes someone I'd root for on any team outside of the AFCE - I was just excited we had him for a while. Hope he recovers and sees further success in the NFL again regardless of the impact to us. Still sucks for us, but nothing in comparison to what it means for Keller personally.
     
  39. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That is a very good point. However, we don't need a TE to make our QB to 'look' competent. We have a QB who IS competent. :up:
     
  40. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    That remains to be seen. Like everyone here I'm pulling for Tannehill, but:

    He has to get better at reading defenses

    He has to get better at not staring down receivers and looking off receivers

    He has to get WAY better on 3rd down, the money down.

    So far Tannehill is no Andrew Luck for sure, and my guess is that Brandon Weeden will have a better year than Tannehill.

    Losing Keller certainly didn't help, but he does have Wallace. I'm happy that we got Wallace, but I'm wondering who will have a better year, Wallace or TY Hilton, and I'm pretty sure who the better value is. I was all over Joe Adams in the draft last year and I liked but didn't love Hilton- looks like I got those backwards, I think that Hilton is ready to rip it up.
     
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