***The Official Eurocup 2008 thread***

I'm absolutely amazed that Italy played the way they did. it makes no sense at all. they aren't exactly the penalty kings of the world. Spain thoroughly deserved their win.

 

So explain why some of th emost talented players in Europe sat back and destroyed the game?

Explain why the last time Italy were in a major tournament they won a penalty shootout converting all their kicks?

Explain when the last time Spain won a penalty shootout? Last 3 I can remember were against South Korea in the 2002 World Cup when Joaquin missed; against England when Nadal missed in Euro 96 and in in the World Cup in 1986.

One team tried to win the game, the other didn't. You were watching a different game if you thought anything other than that.

 

It absolutely happened just outside the box.

 

Me too mate. And they would have done the same against Russia; tried to stifle Arshavin and Pavyluchenko and what's worse is that Italy's two most progressive players tonight, Grosso and Zambrotta, wouldn't have gotten forwards at all because of Zhirkov and Anukov the two Russian fullbacks who make Sergio Ramos look defensive when it comes to going forwards.

 

Grosso stamped on his foot, and it was outside the box for sure.

 

If Pirlo hadn't been suspended I would have hoped that Donadoni wouldn't have employed the same tactics. But of Andrea Pirlo is the only creative midfielder that Italy has, then there's something wrong with that picture.

 

Ramos was a rock tonight. Spain always flatter to deceive and their real test will be against Russia. One thing for sure is that Russia may be winning 1-0 with 10 minutes to go, but they will still be attacking. i am looking forward to seeing how Puyol and Ramos cope with the quickness of the Russian strikers.

 

I can't wait to see how they play Arshavin.

 

I like Grosso. He's a good player. Aragones worked out his one weakness early on which is why they switched Iniesta and Silva to allow David to cut in onto his left foot onto Fabio's weaker side, but he's technically a very good defender and if he'd opened his mouth when Di Natale crossed late on, surely Toni wouldn't have attempted an overhead kick and it would have allowed Grosso in on goal.

I don't know if Donadoni is tactically inept or whether Italy don't have the players, but Ramos and Capdevila can be got at. Zambrotta and Grosso are two of the best exponents of attacking fullback play in world football and Capdevila's weakness is his overall game and Ramos' is that he's great going forward, but not so good going backwards. With Toni in the middle able to get above Puyol and Marchena, I am AMAZED that a) they didn't keep getting it wide and firing balls in and b) when they finally DID that no-one took advantage of the fact that Ramos was tucking in from right fullback to mark Toni leaving huge spaces in behind that NO-ONE save for Gross once, tried to fill. Surely Camoranese and Grosso should have been pushing into that space unmarked again and again?

Staggering

 

He is, but you know why; because he's good at getting forwards and Grosso sat back more than I've ever seen him and when he was challenged defensively it was on his strength which is in the air against Luca Toni. He can be got at if you run at him and he can be beaten because he dives in too much. Zhirkov will give him a hell of agame on Thursday night.

Wouldn't surprise me to see Ramos go to Man Utd as part of the Ronaldo deal.

 

Arshavin will play much how Thierry Henry did for Arsenal in his pomp; he'll come out wide and get the ball and either take on Ramos or run at him with pace and cut inside him. They'll play Pavyluchenko up on his own and Arshavin will just sit and pull wide, especially when Ramos gets forward. You'll see the Russian fullbacks and Arshavin get into two against ones on Ramos.

 

I think that we have come to the same conclusion. Donadoni is inept. Toni hasn't had is greatest passage in football this competition, but he has still managed to get in all the right positions for finishing. it is only the last part that has let him down. Sometimes that happens with players. i think that with Pirlo out they really missed someone like Totti. They would have been better off starting the old man Del Piero.

 

I would hate to see that, as it may make United a stronger team

 

I read on a message board that Madrid is offering up 50 million euros and Wesley Sneijder to Man Utd. If they don't want that then its 90 million euros.

 

There will be plenty of 3 against 2's i fear. But I have a sneaky feeling that Ramos wont get as far forward in this game. Or they may play an extra defender or defensive midfielder so that the 2 Spanish FB's dont get sucked in to the middle too much.

 

I have been really impressed with Wesley Sneijder this Tourney, but i dont understand why that Real are trying to get rid of a player of his calibre.

 

I couldn't tell you. I have always thought he was an outstanding player. Maybe they play him in the spot where Ronaldo would?

 

2 things; I will be STAGGERED if Wesley Sneijder, who was the best player in La Liga last season and a better big game player than Ronaldo, is offered up in any deal. Secondly, the final transfer fee will probably be in the £60 million range MAX.

 

I don't think they can continue to play Iniesta and Xavi who have both struggled. I would be inclined to play Alonso and Fabregas with Senna.

 

60 max? After all that crazy talk about them offering up to 190 million euros? Btw, I'll try to find the link of Sneijder being involved in the talks.

 

Heres the link.

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/interactiveEditorial/0,16398,3209_3718178,00.html

They say the reason he is being offered up because Man Utd may be planning a bid for Sneijder.

http://espnstar.com/football/premier-league/news/detail/item76824/United-set-to-bid-for-Sneijder/

 

190 million euros is what, £150 million pounds? Never, ever, ever, ever, ever going to happen.

Ever.

 

I think Man Utd will ask for Sneijder, but Madrid won't give him. And £45 million PLUS Sneijder?? That's fantasy. Sneijder is a better player in the first place.

 

Lol, just what I heard. Reportedly thats what Madrid offered up the first time and it was rejected by Man U.

Sneijder is a really good player. If Madrid prys away Ronaldo from Man U, could you see them selling Sneijder?

 

Anything could happen with Madrid, but I don't see them selling Sneijder. Ramos? Maybe. Not Sneijder.

 

I don't understand why they would sell Ramos. He's only 22 and despite him being mistakes, he can learn from them since he is so young. To be honest with you, I wouldn't sell either. I'm not sure why they are so hot on Ronaldo in the first place.

 

I don't know if any of you watched on ESPN or not, but I thought Andy Gray was about to walk down to the field and strangle the ref. After DiNatale's shameful acting job, when the ref stopped play for the 73rd time, he said, "well, I hope this is his last game in this tournament". I like Gray a lot, but he was openly cheering for Spain by the end of the game. That may have been a product of the perception (that I agree with) that Spain played to win, and Italy played for penalties.

Historically, you're right, Italy hasn't exactly been great at winning on penalties (94 World Cup seems the best example). However, right now, I'll take Gigi Buffon in net over just about anyone (including Iker Casillas) in a shootout. Today, Casillas was a giant, and good for him. But if Italy and Spain go to 10 penalty shootouts, I'll take Italy 7 times, and so would Donadoni. And so I think that's what they played for.

But, obviously you disagree.

Personally, I hate penalties. It's like settling a baseball game with a home run hitting contest. Play a 15 minute overtime period, then make it sudden death/golden goal after that. If it's still tied after 15 more minutes, just start taking off a man per side every 5 minutes until it's 7 on 7.

 

Yeah I also saw it on ESPN. I agreed with everything Andy Gray had said. The ref was terrible. It got me pissed off at one point where he must have blown the whistle 5 times in a span of like 3 minutes. I didn't like the ref at all.

Yeah I thought they were playing basically to not lose. And despite my criticism of Italy this game, I want to point out that I was rooting for Italy.

 

Spain was the better team today and deserved to win


Di Natele seemed to get hit in the thigh which would have given him a Charlie Horse. Did he stay down to long Yes but it wasn't a Ronaldo or Totti dive

With all the fans booing him I'm surprised he was selected to kick.

 

Bro, I completely agree except the rooting. I went for Italy.

The first thing I thought when they took out Torres was that it could backfire on them. I have never heard of Guiza to be honest. He looked bad out there though. That handball as you mentioned was terrible. I am not sure if Torres could have put it in the back of the net but I would be willing to put my money on it that he would.

The PK by Guiza was also a "WTF" moment.

EDIT: Yeah, not rooting for Germany haha. Russia!

 

What the fans were annoyed at was that Di Natale, when tackled rolled off the pitch. Spain broke away and Di Natale, seeing that Italy were overrun, rolled back onto the pitch, forcing Fandel to stop the game.

 

Guiza won the Pichichi this past season. 27 goals for a team that finished 7th in La Liga is pretty good.

 

Ok, disagree that the subbing of Camoranesi signaled that they were playing conservative. If you know Camoranesi, you will know that he is by no means a defensive player. He pushes the wings, and Italy tried to add another dimension to their counter attack. Perrota was doing nothing of that sort. Italy lost this game in the midfield. We had nothing. Pirlo was a HUGE absence. We had no means of feeding our striker (Toni, who should have been subbed off in the 2nd) all tournament.

Did Italy attack as hard as they could? No. Did they play for penalties? I personally don't think so, but many disagree with me here. That is fine.

In regards to the ref, he did an excellent job. So what if he blew the whistle 5 times in 3 minutes, why let fouls go just because of their frequency? Also, he was spot on in telling Villa and Toni to get up after their numerous dives. The side refs made excellent offside calls, and all around, I was encouraged by the refs, and they restored what little faith I have in them.

My biggest knock on Donadoni, and I'm still peeved to this day about it, is that he did not call Inzaghi. Inzaghi doesn't score pretty goals, but I guarantee you this, if he had the chances Toni had, he'd have netted at least a few. In Inzaghi's last 5 games, he scored 9 goals. How can you not call him, in favor of Boriello and Quagliarela who didn't even see the pitch, is beyond me.

Well, tournament is over for me. I'd like to see either Spain or Russia win. Spain deserves one, and have been nothing but class ever since I could remember. It would also be nice for Russia to win and finally restore the USSR's dominant ways of the past.

 

Well, I am dumbfounded...Russia and Turkey pull it together and play marvelous football, while the Dutch and Croats fall apart at the seams. Didn't see that coming... Should be a good next couple of matches- especially to see how many of Turkey's injured players decide to be on active roster(if any).

I know everyone's pulling against the Germans here, but as I am part German (and somewhat an arrogant *** in this way as well ), I'll be pulling for Germany v Russia in the final, with Germany to win it all (but not by much). I can see the gasps from everyone now, but soccer is, after all, nationalism at it best and worst, is it not??

 

A tad harsh to say that Croatia 'fell apart at the seams'. They dominated Turkey without scoring and fell foul to a last second hoof up the field that landed perfectly for Shemi and then took a hefty deflection on its way in.

 

Well that is a bit like when Eusebio got called instead of Romario in the WC 98 Brazil squad. It is not that Eusebio was a bad player, he clearly was, it was just that Romario was so popular and had so much clout. Every time Eusebio came into the game he was trying to do too much to sort of prove that he had what it took... and in the end that made him look bad.

Guizar to me looked like he was flustered trying to grow up to the ocation without being able to do so. And to be fair it is not like if Torres was playing a hell of a game, he dissappeared for most of it. I would have subbed him out too... though I wish I had Raul or Raul Tamudo on the team, to have two people that I know can perform in the clutch on a national team.

 

Well, domination w/o scoring is not domination IMO- it is control. Look at what happened earlier in the year w/ the Premier League Championship- Barca 'dominated' ManUtd. the first match, but came away empty, which left the door open for Man. to come back and beat them at home.

You can control or dominate all you want, but if you don't score, it wears on you. That's in any sport, but especially in soccer, as the opportunities for and actual scoring are so few and far between. Eventually the mind begins to take over the will, and performance follows.

I probably was a tad harsh, but it was faster to be all-inclusive rather than nice, and I had other things to do at that point. Regardless, it was certainly a disappointing performance(for me). I had expected a good two goals out of Croatia- so much for that assumption.

 

Truth be told Q, Romario had a calf injury, and never recovered on time for '98. The great Emerson Ferreira took his place, and never saw a minute on the pitch. The raging debate was to decide who deserved a shot at starting beside Ronaldo. I think Edmundo won that one over Bebeto.

Agreed about Guiza. He was fine. Torres looked hefty to me but people tend to focus on the front men too much IMO. The real issue was that they lacked width, because of (a) Sergio Ramos being pinned down defending Cassano, (b) Xavi playing too deep, and (c) Capdevilla disappearing. They would've been better served by subbing in Xabi Alonso instead of Cazola. That was my point of contention. Not that Xabi Alonso could directly provide that width as much as Cazola, but indirectly he's able to instantly swing the ball from side to side, and spray it around, which in turn encourages movement, and risks.

 

I remember Romario getting all up in arms to not getting called. THat was the famous days of Ro-Ro (I remember that because it was the whole which latin american striker team was better Ro-Ro or Sa-Za, Salas and Zamorano from Chile) so I stayed with that one. I do remember Eusebio playing, and being awful, but not awful due to being bad, just because he looked like he was trying to hard. I think that was against Morocco (which was a hard game anyways, due to the awesomeness of Mustafa El-Hadji in that WC). But you are probably one hundred percent right, since I am remembering this with the eyes of a 15 year old kid that was really in his infancy in terms of sports watching and obsessing.