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Dolphins Are Planning to Use Tannehill in Read Option

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by finsincebirth, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Keep him in the pocket and keep him alive this season. When a read option QB wins a Superbowl then come talk to me about the Read Option.

    Because by my calculations - The pure pocket passers seem to be winning all the Superbowls.

    It's not about using his complete skill set - if the pocket collapses he takes off running. Doesn't that use his legs as well?

    If they are talking read option, they have given up on him as a pocket passer. I hardly doubt that is the case.

    Would New England risk Brady running the Read Option??? NO @#%@# WAY. Why should we risk our "Suppossed" franchise QB? Especially when his O-line is substandard?

    I believe in Tannehill and I believe in him in the pocket. Especially this season, till we get him an O-Line. Don't even sprinkle the read option into this offense. Develop him as a pocket passer who can exploit an open lane out of the pocket if pressure arises. :no:
     
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  2. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Don't even compare the 49ers offense to ours. Two completely different entities. They have an O-line - They have a proven RB - They have an ALL-Pro Tight End - They have a QB with some speed / moves and they have Harbaugh.

    What you should be looking at, is that they had the better team in the Superbowl and lost to the Pocket Passer - Pro-Set offense.

    This isn't the first time a college type offense has come to the Pro's to fail. Remember the Run and Shoot??
     
  3. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Read option does not pose an inherent risk that is greater than that of passing from the pocket. In fact, there's a strong argument that it makes protecting the QB easier.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4
     
  4. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    For those doubting what Stringer, rafael, dj, and Fin D are saying, you should watch this video: http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=10404 (scroll down a bit on the page).

    At least with respect to Colin Kaepernick, he's certainly not at greater risk of getting hit on read-option plays and/or play-action plays off a read-option look. I do think Atlanta was onto something in the NFC Championship game with respect to stopping Kaepernick...they just ended getting burned by Frank Gore instead.
     
  5. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    I completely disagree. The read option definately puts the QB at higher risk. There is no question about that and thats "IF" he reads the DE correctily. If he @!%@% up a read then he is really exposed. Everytime he runs the ball out of the read option he is at risk. Tannehill is not Caepernick or RGIII or even Russell Wilson. These guys have incredible skills running the football.

    I don't even get Shanahan's desire to run the read option with RGIII - He has the skills to be a pocket guy and with his newly constructed knee, thats likely where they keep him this season.

    Please keep Tannehill in the pocket. Please Miami.
     
  6. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    This is the problem I have with this video - 1. SF is an elite team and ANY offense they run will yield similiar results 2. Baltimore Shut it down in the Superbowl and hit Kaepernick several times 3. Alex Smith had a 104 QB rating with 13 TD's and 5 picks and a 104 QB rating when he was replaced 4. You cannot yield similiar results without a Kaepernick - Wilson or RGIII who can simply FLY running the ball. 5. The Niners were 5-2-1 under Kaepernick and 6-2 under Alex Smith - They probably win the Superbowl if they stay with Smith and the Pro-Set. The Read Option DID NOT significantly improve that team. I could go on...:tongue2:
     
  7. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    If a QB misses a read in the read-option, the hit isn't as nearly as bad as if he misses a blitz read. We are talking about a guy taking a face up hit vs a guy taking what very likely will be a blindside hit.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4
     
  8. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Then why did Harbaugh switch QBs?

    And by what measure did Baltimore shut down SF in the Super Bowl?

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4
     
  9. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    I don't know why Harbaugh switched QB's.

    46.1 QBR is pretty much getting shut down. Flaco had a 95 QBR - He played outstanding from the pocket.

    Kaepernick is a rare physical talent, the guy can really spin wheels, but the read option is just another flash in the pan offense. It will die soon enough.
     
  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I disagree schematically, so your saying the only drawback to running the formation is making your Qb vulnerable?, and that executing an offense from the pocket is more effective and efficient then incorporating both angles?

    The Seahawks, the redskins, the niners, all have given up on their Qb?, they all run the formation and made the playoffs with first year starting qbs, one made the superbowl.

    Your telling me Jim Harbaugh has no clue?

    I don't like waiting til the pocket collapses before engaging Tannehills athleticism, I don't think it suits him, I'd rather dictate and be aggressive and hit them from every angle.

    You do present an interesting debate, and something I've been talking about all offseasons, and that is, Tannehills ceiling from the pocket is high, but where can you prove that offense is run more effectively exclusively from the pocket, than it would be if you did both?

    I don't see some debiltating process to pocket skills happening by running some plays that obviously threaten a defense, paralyze a great pass rush, and if you have a Qb that has some ability in this dept, make a defense think about defending all their space on all plays..
     
  11. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Well said. Really.

    It all comes down to whether you have a fundamental belief in the Read Option. It is new and being new it has taken NFL defenses by suprise, they will catch up and end this read option. I don't believe RGIII Wilson or Kaepernick will ever win a Superbowl running the read option. I don't believe in the offensive scheme. The Ravens Shut Down the read option in the Superbowl - They solved the riddle. The unblocked DE/LB takes out the QB. I don't buy into an offense that leaves a NFL DE/LB unblocked. The Run and Shoot had its moment in the NFL also, and the same HYPE came with it. Where is the Run and Shoot today?

    It relys on an athletic QB and when I say athletic, I mean extremely athletic. Tannehill is not a Read Option QB.

    You want to win Superbowls - Give me the Brady's Mannings Brees Flacos of the world. Downfield Pocket Passers.
     
  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He does have weaker running skills, I cannot deny that point, however, running a read option play does not take the same athletic ability as it does to escape pressure ala Ben Rothlesberger, it's different, but I'm willing to find out on a few plays because I'm intrigued to find out what kind of athleticism he does have, and I believe in what the formation does to a defense..but your point is taken.
     
  13. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There's nothing to "believe" about the read option. It's a thing that actually happens in reality. It works because it has sound fundamental principals behind it. Those principals exist pretty much no matter what. It's not immutable or unbeatable, but it's a thing that exists for a reason.
     
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  14. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    In reality it puts your QB one on one with a NFL DE/LB. Which was the end result in the Superbowl and will become the end result all across the NFL.
    The play relys on the DE/LB biting on the handoff and discipline will win.
     
  15. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Both of those can't be true.
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I believe in it, and if you were here a long time ago, you would know this formation is something I wanted to see ever since Ronnie brown ran rough shot over the pats, I knew the wildcat had its limitations with a one dimensional player, but I believed strongly that if you could find an executioner that could do both, you would have something special, hence the desire to want to draft Kap and Wilson.

    Tannehill imo doesn't have the lateral agility or quickness needed to become a great escape artist, but I think there might be something to him running this thing from a decision making angle, and a specific athletic one..I've seen him bust the gut on a few where his deceptive speed comes into play..
     
  17. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Come on - they both were true. You think they ran the read option every play of that superbowl?? They junked it in the 2nd half. Kaepernick ran for less than 10 yards out of the read option, the rest of his rushing came from pocket scrambles and lets face it, the guy is an athletic SOB.
     
  18. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Your right - Ronnie Brown was a great decision maker. We had an offensive line that season. I miss Ronnie Brown.

    If they want to sprinkle the read option in, it might serve running it a couple times a game. I can't say your enthusiasm for wanting to see that, is misplaced.
     
  19. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    If last year brought the push, expect this year to bring the push-back. The Pittsburgh Steelers’ Mike Tomlin was outright disdainful about the read-option recently, calling it the “flavor of the month” at the owners’ meetings in March.
    “We look forward to stopping it. We look forward to eliminating it,” Tomlin said. “I always take a skeptical approach. We'll see. We'll see if guys are committed to getting their (quarterbacks) hit, because when you run the read-option, obviously they're runners. There's something associated with that.”
    Also, there are plenty of smart defensive coaches in the NFL spending this offseason figuring out how to gird their units to stop the read-option. It caught them by surprise in 2012, but I’m guessing things will go differently in 2013.
     
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  20. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This doesn't make a lot of sense. If the unblocked defender is consistently shown keying on the quarterback, that defensive end is taking himself out of the play and the runningback will get the ball with more blockers than defenders in the front. It'll stop a quarterback from putting up rushing numbers, but it'll do sweet **** all for stopping an option play.

    That's not addressing all the variants of read option football either. You can make the defensive tackle the read. You can run a triple option and force defensive backs into the same kind of quandary with the pitch man. You can run non-option plays that look like options to take advantage of the way it is being defended. It is a consistent, evolving arms race that's been going on in college for quite a while, if the solution was "put your unblocked guy on the quarterback", the read option would have lasted a matter of games, rather than decades.

    Plays where an edge defender is purposely left unblocked to create a numbers advantage isn't that rare. Like say, an outside zone not rare.

    No one runs a "Run and Shoot" offense in the modern NFL, but the concepts and plays are very much a fundamental part of modern passing.
     
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  21. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Come on brother. If you cancel the QB end of this play by keying a back side DE/LB on him, you have stopped the Read Option. Discipline is the key - he cannot bite on the fake. The percentage of tackles this backside defender is going to make is small anyhow.

    Now you have safety's and DB's that can support the run from the opening snap.

    What makes unique guys like Kaepernick and RGIII, is they can beat the DE/LB one on ones.

    The offense was created for QB's that ran the ball better than they threw it. Don't quote me on this but I believe Rich Rod started using it at West Virginia extensively in Division I. I believe it climbed the ranks to that point from even lower divisions.

    Now it is quite popular, as is the athletic QB. College teams and even some Pro teams are trending towards a QB that can run as well as he can pass and the Read Option fits that style.

    This isn't a new phenom - Randall Cunningham - Donavan McNabb - Michael Vick ... When these Run orientated QB's start winning Superbowls I'll be a believer in Run style QB's at the NFL level. To me, there is to much risk for your field general.

    Give me Tom Brady - Peyton Manning - Drew Brees - Eli Manning and if you want a scrambler make it a pass first scrambler like Steve Young or Joe Montana.

    I think Ryan Tannehill can become that Pass first mobility guy. I don't want to risk his *** running the read option.
     
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  22. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's not correct. You're ignoring the fundamental aspect of the read option- The idea that a defender is left unblocked, and then put in a position where he cannot make the play on the ball no matter what- A read is made, and based on that defenders actions, the ball is send on a different track he cannot reach. If a defensive end keys on the quarterback no matter what, he's going to keep handing to the running-back, and that defensive end is going to be neutralized without being blocked. Instead of a 6v6 blocking situation in the box, it's a 6 on 5 situation.

    What you're suggesting is basically a whack-a-mole tactics to what is essentially a chess game. Part of the success of the read option in the NFL has been because of the "surprise" aspect, but there's no magic bullet. It's been around for quite a long time in college, and there is a tremendous wealth of measures and counter measures on both sides of the game. If it becomes nonviable, it's almost certainly not because someone "solves" it.
     
  23. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Your not understanding. If you take the QB out of the play by keying him with a backside DE/LB, you have solved the read option. You have turned it into a off tackle run and not only that, you can commit to run instantly.

    Your turning the play into a run off tackle, everytime. I can't think of an easier play to defend. At the loss of what? A backside defender who will make what, less than 1% of the tackles on an off-tackle run away from his side. A problem doesn't arise until you have a QB who can beat the one on one or a DE/LB who bites on the fake.

    Otherwise the play is merely an off-tackle handoff that the defense knows is a run on the snap.
     
  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Right, in this case its the latter.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4
     
  25. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    No, the play relies on the DE/LB taking responsibility for the QB.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4
     
  26. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Right, cuz your going to put up a ton of points running a HB off-tackle all game. :no:
    :no:
     
  27. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The advantage isn't so much that the defensive end is eliminated, but that the result of doing so is that you have an additional blocker. You've got a numbers advantage, you've got one more blocker than the opponent has defenders in a normal front. That is not in the slightest bit an insignificant thing, and I don't think any coach would be the least bit unhappy about getting the situation you're advocating all day long.

    What you're advocating is not an actual solution for defending read option football. That's more along the lines of what an unprepared defensive coach might do if he was caught completely by surprise. You need to do some research on what coaches actually do- Scrape exchanges and the like...and then realize that there are counters for those too.
     
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  28. mbsinmisc

    mbsinmisc Season Ticket Holder

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    I think the pistol will yield the occasional big play, but I think the QB is gonna take a punch in the mouth every time they run it. It is one thing when your QB is taking 3 or 4 big hits a game versus taking 10 or 12. I understand the numbers, I watched Rodriguez win 11 or 12 games a year with a similar offense. If an OLB or DE like Wake hits the QB repeatedly, it will take a huge toll, physically and mentally.
     
  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I thnk whenever you can get a player the caliber of a clay Matthews to play paddy cake with a tackle on a play, and not do what he does best, I think you have to exploit that if you have the skillset to do so at QB..
     
  30. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Matthews won't be playing patty cake. If your running the read option to his side, he will be one on one with your QB and unblocked. I'll take that everyday. If your running the read option to the other side, he'll be at the point of attack. I'll take that also.

    He seems to believe that Keying the QB with the unblocked DE/LB is going to create this huge advantage at the point of attack. (HB off-tackle) That is simply not the case. That extra tackle that doesn't block Matthews, doesn't have time to reach the point of attack and throw some kind of key block that makes the read option unstoppable. He's blocking down and thats about all he can contribute or even has time to contribute. You want the HB in what you hope is a hole off-tackle, not waiting for a 300lb tackle to arrive and throw a block.

    The success of the HB off-tackle, depends solely on how well the play is blocked at the point of attack. If the Strong-side DE or LB blows up his side of the ball, the play dies. Which is the same on any running play.. How well you block at the point of attack/Line surge/seal etc..

    The danger in the read option is when that DE/LB bites on the handoff, then the QB has the potential to turn a big play. Otherwise, it is just a HB off-tackle run or a QB one on one versus Clay Matthews and to think the extra tackle is going to influence the point of attack, is simply false.
     
  31. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Our OL was average as a pass blocking unit in the preseason and that was with the parade of unsuccessful RGs. With Jerry in it is likely that we'll be at least average and probably slightly above average pass blocking line this season. That's not b/c I think Jerry is great or anything, just that he'll be an improvement over the RGs we were trying to replace him with. It's also b/c the biggest factor in pass pro is the QB. I stated several weeks ago that the biggest reason for us not finding the right mix on the OL (other than the regime changes) is that we hadn't found the QB that makes the OL look good in pass pro. Anticipation (pre and post snap), mobility, decision making are all huge factors. And with the quick passing game that Miami hopes to use the impact of the QB is even greater.

    However, our run blocking has been poor. That's where I think the read option can have a huge impact. If the end has to hesitate a beat to verify the QB doesn't keep the ball then he is late (at best) in reacting to the dive. That means that, at best, he's making an attempted tackle several yards downfield rather than at the line. Add in the extra blocker and suddenly the OL looks like a much better run blocking unit. That doesn't even include the YPC bump that the longer QB runs provides. And as long as the QB isn't right up at the line when making the read then he's not likely to even be hit by the end when he hands off even if the DE is staying home. When the QB keeps it then the end shouldn't hit him as long as he made the right read and the QB has some wheels. In RT's case he's almost as fast CKap so he should be well past the DE on any keeper. If the read option is run well then it shouldn't expose RT to more than one or two potential hits per game. Even less than that if the passing game is efficient. I really hope that the read option is used this season as I see it as potentially solving/easing the run blocking concerns for this team.
     
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  32. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You've basically come up with a theory regarding something that actually exists, and are completely untroubled by the fact that the wealth of actual evidence we have doesn't at all match it. What you're suggesting isn't actually in practice used in defense of the read option- It's part of an overall defense, but that again has its own weaknesses(that ironically directly lead to the Packers getting shredded by the 49ers in the playoffs.)

    Not only is what you're suggesting not a practical defense, but if it were true it would also mean that the read option wasn't actually a particularly effective offensive foundation. At some point you should either be re-evaluating your stance, or writing a series of sincere letters to NFL and NCAA coaches on both sides of the ball informing them of the error of their ways.
     
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  33. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    My curiosity with the read option is how rules with protecting QBs intersects with the position evolving more to being a runner, or at least a more likely threat of being a runner. We have seen running backs getting tackled or take hits on play action.

    Usually, the hand off takes place with enough time for the D to recognize it and there is not much reason to hit the QB. But iirc, the Ravens got a couple of shots on CKap in the Super Bowl when the got there quickly shortly after he handed off.

    Or maybe after being burned a few times, a defender is told to continue on his path to the QB no matter what. Say #48 just went on and hit the QB. It is not unreasonable that the QB may have the ball. Play starts at 0:34

    [video=youtube;ZBvFDHigBT4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBvFDHigBT4[/video]

    I don't think keying on the QB 'solves' the play. But it may make some teams think twice about running these plays if the D is allowed to take these shots
     
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  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We're gonna find out about how RT's athleticism works in executing the formation, but what I already know is how players like Kap's athleticism will translate in the formation, if we're talking about whether the formation will last, then for me the answer is yes, IF you have a great payer who knows how to execute the formation, If it comes down to a one on one, I'll take Kaepernik strengths in the majority of reps against any def end who has to read and react, instead of attack..
     
  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If we're talking about rules and evolvement of tackling, then even if the Qb has to take a few shots, their gonna have to be clean shots, and that bodes well for long term health of all players, no head down, no crown..The hits I saw on Kaepernik were more like shoves if I remember.
     
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  36. Linus

    Linus Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    “I like to get after it. I like to just be going for it, getting after the quarterback. With this, it’s the complete opposite. You have to sit there and play pattycake with the tackle, making sure the quarterback doesn’t escape the pocket. You have to read and make sure who’s taking the ball, who’s not."

    - Clay Matthews
     
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  37. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    I don't know why we keep turning a read option into only an off-tackle run. There's an inside zone/HB dive. Play action, etc.
     
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  38. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    I don't mean to imply that the scheme to stop the play is to cause injury, but that there are some risks there that the opposition will take advantage of if the highly paid QB is going to expose himself. It reminds me a bit of when Charles Barkley said he would put a knee in the chest of a guy that tried to draw a charge on him. It wasn't to injure, but to discourage
     
  39. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    He was a ****ing Big 12 WR.....he can run with the ball dude. Watch his highlights from last year.
     
  40. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    I think Ryan is a better athlete than Wilson
     

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