Dave Wannstedt: Not As Bad As You Think

I never thought Wannstedt was that bad either. JJ either (gasp). I think that after Saban BSed and just took off and then we go 1-15 with Family Guy, people just started picking apart past regimes and saying we've had ****ty coaches for a long time.

I'm thinking this regime works out a lil better.

 

helluva great write up bro, and I hate to rain on the parade but think Barry Switzer.. and December win percentages.

 

no that draft history... no no no, thats the first start of the problem... it was horrendous, you cant pick 5 semi decent players and say he had a good drafting history... 5 starter worthy players in 5 years, no way... plus never addressing the QB issues by sticking with Fiedler...

he inherited that great defense and rode off of that... the Williams trade in retrospect was a disaster, giving up 2 first round picks for 1 great year and 1 average year of production is not in any way shape or form a good move

 

wanny was the HC and GM in the beginning, which I don't think was the right thing to do....spielman came along and made **** worse...

i didn't like that wanny stuck with fiedler

 

That's it. RopeWeed's unexpected "retirement" started the collapse. A HUGE number of injuries that year added to the problem. The culture of winning was broken that year.

 

Wannsteadt still declined as the years went by. We had a tough time trying to beat are ultimate enemy...the jets. Not to mention, that when we lost to the Jets, it cost us the postseason. But still he may have been the best coach post-shula just like fiedler was our best qb post-marino, but what does that say about what state we are in the 2000's. Would you rather be the head of the cat or the tail of the tiger? That's the difference between being the best non playoff team and the worst playofff team. He gave us no chance at being the pittsburg steelers of '05. Oddly enough he hasn't done anything to improve the pittsburg college team.

 

We are now reaping the fruits of his draft day labors. He was handed a decent team and ran it into the ground.

 

I disagree with everything in so-called "Fact 4". Wanstedt picked a few "decent" players and you're trying to defend his personnel decisions. Where were the great players, or even really good players he picked. Ugh...

Todd Wade = average at best
Chris Chambers = I'm not gonna open that can of worms...he had 1/2 of one good season.
Randy McMichael = He sucked. Yeah, I said it. Too many key drops and fumbles.
Yeremiah Bell = One good, not great season. A revelation? Please...
Vern Carey = 2 years of underachieving and 2 years of solid play.

And trading 2 #1 picks for ANY runningback is and was stupid.

I dunno man, you're really stretching this whole thing.

 

4-12 just because your leading rusher quit football is no excuse. 4-12 is all anyone needed to know about this team under DW.

 

Ill add to my last post. In 2002, had the leading rusher and leading sack leader, as well as one of the top defenses and still miss the playoffs, is all anyone needed to know about DW.

 

In conclusion, Wanny's man-love for Jay Fiedler did him in.

 

And run, run, throw, punt. And run, run, run, punt. And then throwing on 3rd down with a noodle arm qb with 15 or more yards because the running game wasnt working. And on and on and on....

ugh, Im getting a headache.

 

How many heart attacks did everyone suffer whenever Fielder threw the ball deep?

 

I agree with the main post in this thread. We made the playoffs in two of his four sethat asons in charge, and one of the seasons we didn't make it we still won ten games, something we haven't done since.

Wannstedt could not have known that Ricky would retire, hell, no one did. It was probably the most shocking move the NFL has seen in the last decade.

Under Wannstedt we were at least competitive in pretty much every damn game. I would sell the farm to be at that level now.

 

Thats not an excuse to go 4-12. One player retires and that blows up everything? His fault for assembling the offense and ultimately, the defense, around one player. I say defense because our one-dimensional offense led to many three and outs, and a tired worn out defense.

 

You're right, he assembled the offense around one player. That player also happened to be one of the premier players at his position on an offense that was bereft of talent. I don't understand the argument not to rely on Ricky Williams, you already stated that we couldn't rely on Jay Fiedler.

 

Just like Barry Switzer when he came to the NFL, DW inherited a talented team. He did not make one impact addition other than RW and literally ran the team into the ground. Had he chosen the BPA during the drafts, we may still have had a few gems left, and surely would not have had a need to hire Saban or Cameron...

 

Drafting Jamar Fletcher and passing on Drew Brees when you alreday had Madison and Surtain in their prime is moronic. Do I also need to say the name Eddie Moore ? It is was great post with a lot of points but I think you missed a few.

 

That's right - Eddie *Freakin* Moore... Jamar *Freakin* Fletcher...

My own personal pet peeve about Wanny was the "keep it close and win it in the 4th" mentality... That is a loser mentality that led our guys to playing tight because they were afraid to make a mistake... GRRRRRRRRRR... I get irritated just remembering it. You think the patriots have that mentality? Hell no, they go for the throat... Teams that "keep it close" over the years end up failing ultimately, as that "afraid to lose" mentality eventually undermines every close game you are in... And playing conservative guarantees a lot of close games...

I respectfully state that those of you that don't think Wanny was so bad really don't know what good is...

 

Dave Wannstedt was a DISASTER and there is no sugar coating it.

He was in charge of drafting and player acquisition for 4 years, 2000-2003. What do we have left from those 4 drafts? ONE PLAYER! Yeremiah Bell, that's it. We got a grand total of one Pro Bowl appearance from the players he drafted (Chris Chambers) in 4 years. The players drafted in these 4 years should be the core of our team and we have nothing to show for it.

No, Ricky Williams' Pro Bowl does not count in because Wanny got FLEECED in the deal. Mueller saw him coming and bent him over the hamper.

The "we finally got a rushing game" is a dubious point in my opinion. Lamar Smith got 2100 yards in 2 seasons as a featured back on a running team. That is 65 yards per game. not great considering we were slamming him into the line 25 times a game for 2 years.

Why were we forced to slam a scrap heap/waiver wire pick up runner into the line so many times? Because we had no passing game. Why did we have no passing game? Because of Wanny's unbridled love affair with Jay Fiedler. Who can ever forget the "there is nothing Trent Green can do that Jay Fiedler can't" comment. Or who can forget Wanny crapping the bed on the Matt Hasselbeck deal?

As for the "defensive dynasty" comment, that is also dubious. Our defense was doing it with Jimmy Johnson's players and they we anything but a "dynasty" unless you consider blowing 4th quarter leads and never getting a key stop a "dynasty".

In fact, I can make the arguement that Wanny WRECKED this defense. The strength of the defense when Wannstedt arrived was our front four. Taylor, Bowens, Owens, Gardener, Brommell, Mixon and Armstrong were a formidable group. Well, Wannstedt could not control Gardener so he cut him (even though Darryl had a bad back there was no back up plan). He let Brommell, Mixon and Armstrong leave via free agency. He also knew Tim Bowens had a wonky back.

What did Dave do to replace these players? Well, he drafted a grand total of 3 defensive lineman in 4 drafts, none of them before the 6th round (Otis Leverette 7th, Davern Williams 7th, Ernest Grant 6th). Does it make sense to let defensive lineman walk away every year and not use PREMIUM picks to replace them?

How did Wanny address our defense in his four drafts. A defense that was starting to age and get VERY expensive? Well, besides the 3 stellar defensive lineman he picked he also used premium draft picks on great names like Eddie Moore (2nd), Morlon Greenwood (3rd in a trade up that cost us a 2nd round pick), Jamar Fletcher (1st, in a draft that was loaded with offensive talent he drafts a player that played zone while we played man and he drafted a player that played a position that was manned by 2 Pro Bowlers with long term deals) and Ben Kelly (3rd).

Wannstedt supporters always have the "Ricky blew up our season and cost him his job). Bull ****. Wanny is the one that had no fall back option on offense. Wanny is the one that had all his eggs in the "Ricky Williams basket". A player with a history of abnormal behavior. Wanny's also the one, it could be argued, that drove Ricky to retire. I think Ricky was a little tired of getting slammed into the line 30 times a game with no end in sight.

Dave Wannstedt wrecked this franchise and he is the reason we are where we are. no one has less to show for 4 drafts then we do.

No...Dave Wannstedt was not as bad as you think....he was worse.

 

I thought Wanny was dead and buried. No offense meant, but it amazes me that there are still Wanny apologists in our group of friends. In any event, here's the counterargument; allow for the fact that it's only my theory.

No one does everything wrong. Of course Wanny made some right decisions. But the proof of his ineptitude is in how the team regressed from a 9-to-12-win-per-year franchise to a 4-12 disaster. If you were to graph it, you would see a negative slope. That happened not only to the team's record, but to the team's culture, confidence, attitude and collective mental state.

There are many factors to this decline that Wanny presided over, but the most pervasive one was lack of football smarts; the ability to figure out how to screw over the other guys and how not to get one's guys screwed over. Wanny figured that if he stuck to the "right" formula, he'd be rewarded with wins. That's not what football is, especially not at the NFL level. It's "nice guy" thinking, and nice guys finish last.

Other teams figured Wanny's Dolphins out and he simply could not think his way out of what other teams were doing to him. His response was to coach scared; to coach not to lose. When he said "it's no sin to punt," that was all I needed to hear. He was simply in over his head. He couldn't be inventive or aggressive; he was a deer in the headlights. Inspiration and innovation became impossible; he was too busy waiting for the other shoe to drop. The personnel blunders and bad breaks, which smarter coaches overcome, compounded the problem and made him even more scared, and the vicious circle continued in a downward spiral to 4-12.

If you disagree, look at the parallel history of his tenure at Chicago. Wanny wasn't a total bonehead, but he certainly had a lot of bonehead in him. He was simply not up to the mental level of smarter coaches with street malice who figured out fairly easily what he was trying to do and how to beat his system, while he, on the other hand, was a nice guy, at a loss to figure out what was going wrong or how to get out of it.

It became an entire culture of ineptitude, fear and losing; a losing attitude. It's the first thing that Parcells has been trying to address: the mental state of the players. I think Parcells will be the one to finally exorcise Wanny and his legacy.

 

great thread, superb write up, but . . . Pornstache sucked, he destroyed this franchise and should be shot without a blindfold.

 

unifiedtheory i'm with you man it hurts to think about it

 

Because Wannstadt did absolutely nothing to add some talent to the offense other than one ill-advised trade for RW, we were so bereft.

Needing to build this team around one player because of a dearth of talent can be laid directly at his own feet.

Nice post, Vengeful, but I've gotta disagree...

 

Anyone with football knowledge could of won and would of done a better job with the team that was given to him, I'm sorry to say.

 

I would argue that bringing in guys like Marty Booker, David Boston and AJ Feeley were all attempts to add talent to the offense. Two pro bowl wideouts and a quarterback who looked very impressive in Philadelphia. They didn't work out, but they were still attempts to fix things.

 

And Wanny not letting Spielman pick the guys HE wanted Boldin,Hasselbeck,Brees Etc...was the reason we got those bums. Anyone who defends Wanny is out of their mind. He destroyed the franchise. A monkey with a shaved *** walking backward coulda made this a 9-12 win team. JJ left him a GREAT squad. We shoulda had a Super Bowl with Rickys 1800 yd season and that top defense but Wannys gay crush on the uber suck that was Jay Fiedler meant we couldnt throw a pass. A one armed mental patient coulda had a field day with play action that year but not good old ears. He was the most painful guy Ive ever watched. Popgun arm and innacurate to boot.Dont try telling me that Wanny or Fiedlers won/loss records were due to his play/coaching. The defense won a vast majority of those games. The fact is Wanny was awful as a coach and personnel guy and set us back 10 years. He is THE WORST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO THIS FRANCHISE. The only other thing close was Csonka, Kick,Warfield to WFL but we recovered from that faster than Wanny
For what its worth Spielman gets a bad rap as Wanny overrode the guys he wanted and picked bums. If we'd have had Hasselbeck/Boldin ooooooh my..and Spiels woulda been safe.

 

This topic has been hashed, rehashed and the rehash has been rehashed. This train wreck that has been the Dolphins franchise the last few years has to be layed at the feet of Dave Wannstedt and no one but Dave Wannstedt. Everytime the subject comes up the fact that he won with the talent Jimmy Johnson left him comes up.
DW inherited talent in Chicago and run that team into the ground just as he did in Miami. Because of the inability to draft talent that would be the building blocks of any organization, this team has gotten to the shape it is now in.
Its only my opinion but I truly believe Saban got out of Miami when he did because he realized in how bad of shape this organization was really in and didn't want it to tarnish his image or his desirability by teams looking for a head coach, such as Alabama. He knew this team had to get worse before it got better and it did. This is no excuse for Saban by any means as he should have known how big a job it was before he took on the responsibility.
Now that brings up the question of why it was so big of a job? And the answer is, because Dave Wannstedt had not brought in any talent that would be the building blocks for this organization.
There is no excuses for Ricky Williams behavior and he must accept the responsibility. Ricky Williams complained of the beating he was taking at running back for Miami at Wannstedt's direction and indicated he didn't want to play for Wannstedt. How much this had to do with his decisions and behavior is debatable.
Now the final question is, how much did Wannstedt have to do with Miami's initial winning record?
Did Miami win because of Dave Wannstedt or in spite of Dave Wannstedt?

 

Say what?


Everyone knew all about williams being a 1st class headcase,,, except I guess wannstedt..
The 2 draft picks williams cost this team are more insult to injury..

There just are no excuses for this guy in my book.
Wannstedt inherited a GREAT defense and left the offense flounder habitually next to it during his embarrassing reign as h-c here!

What wanny did to Chicago was completely mild in comparison to the scars he left on this organization..





Marino1983

 

I feel sick to my stomach having read that. The guy singlehandedly destroyed a great franchise by making one stupid decision after another.

 

watup, i got a homie frm the lil apple. great post, very true... JJ drfted Zack and JT and reallly add to shulas team. can u imagen if we had kept JJ around for about 10 Yrs ??? He was young at the time

 

Yeah I stopped reading when he wrote that the drafts weren't that bad. Are you joking me ? The backbone of last years team should have been Wannstedt picks, yet there was but 1 lone draft pick from 2000 to 2004 on that team. That is HORRENDOUS

 

What he did to us is criminal, but Huizenga is more to blame than anyone. He knew what Wannstedt had done in Chicago, and he still hired him.

 

Ha, youre using my old avatar. Hope no one thinks youre me.

 

Huizenga hired Wannstedt because he was told to by JJ, the football god, for whom we ran Shula out of town on a rail. Remember? The game had passed Shula by. JJ turned out to be no god at all; he quit and left us Wannstedt. We are now 1-15. All of us who clamored for JJ must share the blame with Huizenga, and Shula would be laughing if he didn't have so much class.

 

Revisionist history at it's best.......

 

I will give this thread one attribute. That is the fact that the claims are so erroneous that I found enough offense to post something that will probably be driven off the main page by 10 straight threads about a newspaper articles.

You are wrong.

I will address the win percentage later. What is astounding is the names you have cited that Wannstedt had to improve upon.

George Wilson? It was a franchise from scratch! The Dolphins received no advantage whatsoever. To give an accurate comparison to you would have to go to the CFL, the arena league, one 14 round draft, and the street to pick a team. Since free agency was three full decades away, Wilson had two drafts to pick a team. Some accomplishment for Wannstedt overcoming that Wilson's record.

Jimmy Johnson? As much as I despise him, the sad fact is that Jimmy Johnson arrived to a cap strapped team. Much of that cap constraint was due to the pressure placed upon Shula to win. The pressure culminated with such comments from local Miami favorite Jimmy Johnson saying on Fox "There is no way that team in Miami should not win the Superbowl with their free agent aquisitions and Dan Marino at quarterback." Jimmy's first measure of business in Miami was to dump the high priced players. Jimmy's talent was college talent aquisition and I commend him for that talent but he took Dan Marino and he didn't win squat. When I say he didn't win squat, I mean he took the Dolphins to two playoff appearances and a .565 win percentage in four years. You attempt to make it sound like Wannstedt accomplished something further than Johnson with his .575 win percentage and two playoff appearances in FIVE years.

Bates? Nice try to make a comparison. Was it three games or four? I cannot remember. There isn't much about Dave Wannstedt's 2004 Dolphins that I would like to remember.

Saban? He took over a 4-12 team. He improved that team to 9-7 the following year. When the turnaround proved to be a longer process than he originally thought, he bailed. He has been killed in the media and by fans for bailing just as he should.

Cameron? One year and fired? Are you serious? Defeating Cameron's record is all one must do as an NFL coach in your eyes? Wow!

Sporano? What a sad attempt to make an argument for Dave Wannstedt. The man has yet to coach an NFL game!!!

You have your facts consistently wrong! Dave Wannstedt didn't lead his teams. He led Jimmy Johnson's teams. It has been documented that every NFL team is playing with talent acquired three-four years ago in the draft. That is the nucleus of every team. It is the nucleus because contracts for draft acquisitions and free agents typically range from 3-5 years. It is no coincedence that Wannstedt Dolphins made the playoffs five and six years after Jimmy Johnson first step foot in the Dolphins draft room. Dave Wannstedt proceeded to give Jimmy Johnson's draft picks long term, lucrative contracts that would lead to future problems. I would make the argument that the problems caused by Wannstedt's contracts would be such a detriment that the one and done playoff appearances were not worth it. You can continue to live in your fantasy world. All that I ask is that you do not lie for the sake of debate. Wannstedt coached the team for five years and did not make the playoffs in the final three years!

Statistics are funny. They are funny because they never discuss the ebb and flow of the game. More on that later.......

You cited a rushing statistic. What you did not cite was the attempts. I imagine that is because it did not fit into your argument. The rushing attempts for these teams were astounding in total number. It was so astounding that Wannstedt single handedly drove the debate of whether you could run the legs off a running back in a given year. I would argue that Wannstedt proved he could run the legs off a running back. He did that in one playoff game versus Indianapolis. Go back and look at Lamar Smith's rushing yards the week after that game.

What you could not cite in your argument was total offense. That is because there was no total offense. The offensive plan was ball control. It was a "400 rushing attempts or bust" mantra.

If you really buy into Dave Wannstedt's control the football approach, I suggest you watch more NFL football. The same thing is happening every year. Some team will come out rushing the football and passing on third down. Their defense will let them hang in the playoff chase. Just after Thanksgiving that team will begin to get in a points race in every other game. They will start passing a little more than the previous two months. The coaching staff has admitted that they have to turn the passing game lose to compete. Eight games in the quarterback starts proving his worth. This team now has balance. They relied upon their defense and a running game to get them halfway through the season. Every team is set in who they are and what they can do. Now you must throw the ball. If you can't throw the ball, you can't win.

Wannstedt's failings in December were not related to the weather up north. Wannstedt's failings in December were directly related to his obsession for controlling the ball.

Jimmy Johnson thanks you for mentioning all of the players he acquired (with Ogunleye being the lone exception). Did I mention that there was an article in the Miami papers that told the story of how Rick Spielman found Ogunleye?

I did not quote your Ricky Williams plea because I didn't want anyone to laugh at it again.........

Todd Wade - He was so good that the coach that drafted him (Wannstedt) did not want to pay him what somebody else wanted to pay him. On that note, what has Wade done for the Texans?

Chris Chambers - Decent player but he was a second round pick.

Randy McMichael - What did he ever do?

Yeremiah Bell - Huh?

Vernon Carey - This was Spielman's pick in a draft. He was crucified for being fleeced by the Vikings to move up. It was much publicized that Wannstedt no longer had control of personel decisions. Where were you?

You have cited four players as decent players. Dave Wannstedt had total control over four different drafts. Four different drafts consisted of at least 28 drafts picks. One again, you cited four DECENT players out of 28 draft picks.

More revisionist history. This is what happened.....

In his final loss at Joe Robbie Stadium Don Shula was booed off the field.

Jimmy Johnson burned out.

Dave Wannstedt told Dan Marino he would not play for the Dolphins in 2000 and suggested that he retire. The Minnesota Vikings (among other teams) wanted Dan Marino. Dan Marino chose to retire as a Miami Dolphin.

This is the fact about the Marino situation. If you do not have a replacement, you do not twist his arm to retire. Marino wanted to play another year. As history has shown, Marino (with no legs left at all) was three times the quarterback that Wannstedt had to replace him.

The basis of your topic was flawed, your facts are wrong, and the coach that you defended was so bad that we have yet to reach his conclusion.

 

The most accurate response yet.