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The Impact a strong WR/TE Corps has on QB success [FUN STATISTICAL BREAKDOWN]

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddPhin, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    There's some debate [if you can call it that] going on in a few threads about the QB-WR dynamic and exactly how integral to QB production & success his pass catchers are, so I figured I'd take some time to satiate the issue using a heavy dose of straight-forward statistical comparisons. This is interesting and enjoyable to examine b/c it provides us a better idea of what to expect from Tannehill moving forward with the additions of Wallace & Gibson and with Clay seemingly coming around, as well as lends better clarity about last year's QB inconsistency where Tannehill looked worse than he really was.

    The below list shows what QBs look like with and w/o their great cast of pass catchers.
    Many required being extrapolated to 16 games to lend proper accurate comparisons.

    [TABLE="class: grid, width: 850"]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: center"][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]QBR[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]TD[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]TD%[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]yards[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Y/A[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Randall Cunningham '98 with Moss, Carter, Jake Reed [15 games] *led NFL in passing*[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]106.0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]34[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]8.0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3704[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]8.7[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Randall Cunningham's prior average per 15 starts [spanning 13 yrs][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]78.6[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]21[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.5[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3188[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.8[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Brady avg season with a mix of Moss, Welker, Gronk, Hernandez *2x NFL MVP*[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]105.4[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]37[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.5[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4591[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]8.0[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Brady '02-06 w/o Moss, Welker, Gronk, Hernandez[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]88.7[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]26[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3743[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Brady last 9 games [injured Gronk and/or no Welker] extrapolated to 16 games[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]85.2[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]32[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.6[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4807[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.9[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Jeff George '99 w/ Moss,Carter,Reed [10 starts][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]94.2[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]23[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2816[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]8.6[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Jeff George prior avg per 10 gms [7 yrs][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]79.7[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]12[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3.6[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2171[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.8[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Rich Gannon 2 yrs in Oak w/ mix of Rice, Tim Brown, Rison, Jett, Dudley *NFL MVP*[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]93.2[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]26[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3947[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.3[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Rich Gannon prior avg per 16 gms [12 yrs][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]75.6[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]17[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3.8[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2834[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.3[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Tim Rattay with Rice and/or Terrell Owens [164 attempts extrapolated to 16 gms][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]95.2[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]30[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]5.5[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3647[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.7[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Tim Rattay w/o Rice & Owens [550 attempts extrapolated to 16 gms][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]77.9[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]21[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3598[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.8[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]McNabb 1 yr w/ Terrell Owens [15 gms] *NFC POY*[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]104.7[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]31[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.6[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3875[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]8.3[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]McNabb's career w/o Owens per 15 gms[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]83.8[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]21[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.1[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3432[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.8[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Marino 3 yrs w/ Duper/Clayton/Moore [NFL Top 10 All Time Receiving Corps] [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]95.1[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]41[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4656[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]8.0[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Marino 11 yrs w/o the complete trio [excluding rookie year & shortened '93 & '99][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]84.2[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]23[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.5[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3774[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.2[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Elway 4 yrs w/ Sharpe, Rod Smith, McCaffrey, Anthony Miller[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]88.7[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]25[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3435[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.4[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Elway prior 11 years[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]77.9[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]17[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3.7[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3279[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Mark Rypien 4 yr TOTAL w/ Monk/Clark/Sanders [Top 10 All Time Receiving Corps]
    *NFC POY, 2x SB, SB MVP*
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]88.5[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]84[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]11132[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.9[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Mark Rypien following 4 year TOTAL [age 30-33][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]67.7[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]30[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2.6[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6938[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Fouts 3 yrs w/ healthy trio of Winslow/Joiner/Chandler [NFL #1 All Time Receiving corps] extrapolated to 16 games[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]91.8[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]32[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]5.5[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4873[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]8.3[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Fouts 4 yrs pre Winslow, Chandler, and Jefferson, extrapolated 16 gms[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]68.4[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]12[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3.1[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2825[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.3[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Plunkett 3 yrs w/ HOF Semifinalist Branch and either HOF Casper or all pro Todd Christensen, extrapolated to 16 games *2x SB, SB MVP*[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]78.0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]25[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3537[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.6[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Plunkett 7 yrs prior in NE & SF, extrapolated to 16 gms
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]60.4[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]15[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.2[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2431[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.6[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Bradshaw 7rs w/ Swann & Stallworth, extrapolated to 16 gms[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]78.8[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]24[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.1[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3077[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.6[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Bradshaw previous 4 yrs w/o Swann & Stallworth, extrapolated to 16 gms[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]59.5[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]16[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.2[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2275[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Dave Krieg 7 yr TOTAL w/ HOF Steve Largent[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]83.9[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]160[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6.0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]19514[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.4[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Dave Krieg following 7 yr TOTAL w/o Largent[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]79.0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]92[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3.8[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]17088[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Moon '88-93 w/ NFL's best WR quartet - Givins/Duncan/Jeffries/Hill and/or Slaughter, extrapolated 16 gms[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]86.4[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]26[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.7[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4164[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.5[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Moon '84-87 w/o the quartet, extrapolated[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]70.2[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]17[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3.6[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3464[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.3[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Moon '95 w/ Cris Carter, Jake Reed, and Ismail[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]91.5[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]33[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4228[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]QBR[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]TD[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]TD%[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]yards[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Y/A[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]


    Another fun, supportive stat. There's 23 modern day QB's in the HOF. Here's the list who made it w/o a strong cast of pass catchers.
    It's a list of one: Fran Tarkenton, and that's b/c his incredible mobility was ahead of his time.

    Conversely, here's the list who made the HOF with a strong cast [plus the inevitable future HOF'ers]:

    Marino
    - Duper (3x Pro Bowl), Clayton (5x PB), Moore (1x PB). "NFL Film's Top 10 WR corps"
    *** Plus Irving Fryar (5x PB), Keith Jackson (5x PB), Tony Martin (1x PB), Ferrell Edmunds (2x PB)

    Fouts:
    Charlie Joiner (HOF), Kellen Winslow (HOF), John Jefferson (4x PB), Wes Chandler (4x PB). "NFLN All-Time Top 10 WR Corps"

    Van Brocklin
    :
    Elroy Hirsch (HOF), Tom Fears (HOF), Tommy McDonald (HOF), Pete Retzlaff (5x PB) "NFLN Top 10 Corps"

    Griese
    : Paul Warfield (HOF)

    Unitas:
    Raymond Berry (HOF), Lenny Moore (HOF), John Mackey (HOF TE), Jimmy Orr (2x PB), Roy Jefferson (3x PB).
    **Earl Morral (backup QB): 2 Championships with Warfield (HOF), Mackey (HOF), Orr (2x PB), Willie Richardson (2x PB)

    Aikman: Michael Irvin (HOF), Jay Novacek (5x PB), Alvin Harper (3500 yards, 21 TD).

    Bradshaw: Swann (HOF), Stallworth (HOF)

    Starr
    : Carrol Dale (HOF), Max McGee (Packer HOF), Boyd Dowler (60's All Decade Team).

    Montana- Rice (HOF), Dwight Clark (2x All Pro), John Taylor (2x All Pro), "NFLN Top 10 WR Corps"

    Young
    : Rice (HOF), Terrell Owens (future HOF), John Taylor (2x AP)

    Staubach:
    Bob Hayes (HOF), Drew Pearson (70's All Decade Team), Tony Hill (3x PB), Dorsett (HOF)

    Namath
    - Don Maynard (HOF) & George Sauer (4x All Star)
    *** Maynard & Sauer combined for 2400 yards, 20 avg, and 14 TDs during the '69 SB season.

    Len Dawson: Fred Arbanas (5x PB), Otis Taylor (3x PB), Chris Buford (1x PB), Frank Jackson (1x PB),

    Jurgensen: Bobby Mitchell (HOF), Charley Taylor (HOF), Tommy McDonald (HOF), Pete Retzlaff (5x PB). "NFLN Top 10 WR Corps"

    Blanda- Charley Hennigan (AFL HOF) & Brill Groman (1x All Star)
    *** Hennigan & Groman combined for 5100 yards, 47 TDs, and 20 YPC those 2 years!!!

    Elway:
    Shannon Sharpe (HOF), Anthony Miller (5x PB), Rod Smith (3x PB), Ed McCaffrey (1x PB), Vance Johnson (5700 yards/37 TDs).

    Peyton Manning: Harrison (2000 All Decade Team), Wayne (5x PB), Dallas Clark (1x AP). "NFLN Top 10 WR Corps"
    *** Plus Welker (5x PB), Demaryius Thomas (1x PB)

    Kelly
    : James Lofton (HOF), Andre Reed (7x PB), Thurman Thomas (HOF)

    Moon
    -
    Earnest Givens (2x PB), Drew Hill (2x PB), & Haywood Jeffires (3x PB), Curtis Duncan (400 yards, 20 TDs)
    *** "Best WR quartet in NFL at the time" per Wade Phillips.

    Otto Graham
    : Dante Lavelli (HOF), Mac Speedie (40's All Decade Team).

    Bobby Layne
    : Doak Walker (HOF), Cloyce Box (2x PB), Jimmy Orr (2x PB), Buddy Dial (2x PB), Pete Brewster (2x PB), Leon Hart (1x PB)

    Tittle
    - Del Hoffner (60's All-Decade Team)
    *** played together in straight 3 championships. Best 3 years of Tittle's career.

    Brady
    : Welker (3x All Pro), Moss (7x PB), Gronkowski (potential HOF), Hernandez (*was* best Hback in NFL), Troy Brown (1x All Pro)

    Favre
    : Sterling Sharpe (5x All Pro), Antonio Freeman (Packer HOF), Donald Driver (3x PB), Mark Chmura (3x PB), Bubba Franks (3x PB), Greg Jennings (1x PB), Sidney Rice (1x PB), Percy Harvin (1x PB).

    A few other notables
    Lamonica: Fred Biletnikoff (HOF), Billy Cannon (2x AP), Warren Wells (2x PB), Raymond Chester (4x PB).
    *** had only 16 TDs in his first 4 years in Buffalo.... then posted 145 TDs & 6 Pro Bowls the next 6 years w/ the above group in Oakland.

    Kurt Warner:
    Bruce (4x PB), Holt (7x PB), Faulk (HOF); "NFLN Top 10 All Time WR corps"
    Kurt Warner: Fitzgerald (6x PB), and Boldin (3x PB).

    Stabler
    : Biletnikoff (HOF), Dave Casper (HOF), Cliff Branch (HOF nominee). "NFLN Top 10 All Time WR corps"

    Plunkett: Casper (HOF), Branch (HOF nominee), Chester (4x PB), Christensen (5x PB), Chandler (5200 yards, 48 TDs)

    Theismann: Art Monk (HOF), Charlie Brown (2x PB), Gary Clark (4x PB) "NFLN Top 10 Receiving Corps"
    *** Doug Williams & Mark Rypien: Won 2 SBs with this trio (plus Ricky Sanders)

    Esiason
    : Cris Collinsworth (3x PB), Eddie Brown (1x PB), Tim McGee (5200 yards, 28 TDs)


    Coincidentally, the above list combined for roughly 50 Championships and represents 9 of NFL Film's Top 10 Receiving Corps All Time.


    In summary, history has shown ad nauseam that QB production is strongly influenced by their pass catchers, possibly even dependent upon it. The belief that a QB "makes his receivers" and can reliably succeed w/o a strong surrounding cast is a falsehood. Otherwise Taylor Price [3rd round, 2010], Brandon Tate [3rd round, '09], Chad Jackson [2nd round, '06], and Bethel Johnson [2nd round, '03] would be setting the world ablaze with the future HOF'er Brady slinging 'em the ball. Instead, their careers in New England combined for a whopping 1202 yards & 6 TDs, and as a result, NE was left sending Miami a 2nd rounder for Wes Welker. One of the greatest slap-in-the face falsehoods about this league is the notion that Brady made Welker. That's ignorance at its finest WADR. In fact, over the past 10 years the Patriots drafted 8 receivers, none of whom experienced success with Brady [unless you include 2013 Edelman]. We have to backtrack all the way to 2002 to find a Patriots-drafted receiver who succeeded with Brady--- 2nd rounder Deion Branch. Of course there are always exceptions to the norm where a QB will find a string of success w/o a strong surrounding cast, but those instances are rare and obviously shouldn't be viewed as the norm or as a way to suggest the merit of the above stats are false or flawed.

    Now, obviously a great pass-catching corps likely won't turn a bad QB into a good one; that's not the point of this post, b/c bad QB's are typically bad no matter what. The point is to show the dynamic between QB & WR and how it's the QB's surrounding cast that allows his fullest potential to be unveiled. The point is to show how a mediocre QB like Jon Kitna can go from a fitting 12 year average of 76.6 QBR, 59.8% completions, and 3.7 TD% to a moderately impressive 2010 season of 88.8 QBR, 65.7%, and 5.0 TD% in 10 games with Dez Bryant, Miles Austin, and Jason Witten.... as well as how a great receiving cast can make guys like Gannon, George, and Rypien look as good or better than a great QB with an average or decimated one. The point is- it's silliness to a monumental level to think a great QB will perform as equally with an average receiving corps as he would a great one, to the point of believing an improved receiving corps will make a negligible difference. The point is- there's a good reason Mr Ireland spent $100 million in free agency on receivers, and it wasn't b/c all that cash sounds DY-NO-MIIITE. We're now in mode to maximize Ryan Tannehill's production & success rather than unfairly testing his resolve with hot garbage. Hopefully this is just the beginning. We addressed our Yugo of a receiving corps via veteran free agency and have bolstered most other positions via the draft; now it's time to proactively bolster the WR/TE corps via the draft so that young talent can push the guys we have, as well as be ready to go by the time our current receivers are either free agents or nearing free agency.




    PS: Don't forget to tip your waiter on the way out, and by tip your waiter I mean punch the fist bump button cause I'm in a slutty mood. If you don't, MrClean will drag you to his remote jungle, string you up by your pinky toes, drizzle honey on your privates, and let ants the size of badgers turn you into a woman...... unless you already are a woman, in which that case you'll just get a spanking...... and possibly some tickling.... but mostly just tickling.
     
  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I'm fairly certain Todd just made the argument that it is a symbiotic relationship.
     
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  3. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Read this tired with a migraine. Never again.
     
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  4. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    yeah, I'm tired. I meant that very sentiment to be included- that the QB-WR dynamic is harmoniously symbiotic, not as QB driven as some are falsely inclined to believe. Thanks for reminding me.
     
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  5. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Does that mean your headache is now gone? :shifty:
     
  6. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Todd, if you put as much work into our romance as you do into making threads, you wouldn't be sleeping on the couch every night.
     
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  7. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    if I put as much work into our romance I wouldn't be making these threads. Besides, I only sleep on the couch b/c you snore like a brontosaurus. hence your pet name- Brontysnorus..... or just Bronty.
     
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  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not buying it per se, simply b/c Qb's and Wr's TEND to develop at different rates with different factors involved.

    Take Ryan+Roddy White for example, White had a great 07 and was ready to go when Ryan arrived, Julio Jones had Ryan in place but it took him time to develop.

    Now I will put forward the notion that either you sign a Wr in FA or draft them with a high pick to maximize the Qb's play, I suspect Wr is no longer really a position where you can just take a 5th rd pick and toss them out there and have your 2nd yr Qb excel.
     
  9. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure how it applies to the opening post. Enduring player development is kind of an understandable truth of the game, but I don't see how that relates to QB production being heavily influenced by his surrounding cast. Julio was drafted with the intention of maximizing the Falcons offense's production & efficiency, thus maximizing Ryan's production & efficiency by default b/c he's the one dishing out the passes.

    And your allusion to Roddy's great '07 supports what I said about the false belief of the QB making the receiver. White notched 83 catches, 1202 yards, and 6 TDs with mix of Harrington, Redman, and Leftwich.

    Wait, what aren't you buying?
     
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  10. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Did they ban you :tongue2:?
     
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  11. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    The analysis misses the 5 elephants in the room. Take Mark Rypien for example, his QBR for the 4 year with Monk/Clark/Sanders is 88.5. The one year when the Hogs were all healthy for the full season was 97.9. Is the elevated QBR for that period of time due to the guys catching the ball or the guys giving Rypien time to throw the ball. As an aside I have always felt that the '91 Hogs were the best OL I've seen play and that If you put Dan behind that line he would have had 6,000 yards and 60 TDs.

    I agree that the receiving corps helps out the QB a lot. It's just that the OL quality is a factor too. The more variables you have to play with the harder it gets to isolate chickens from eggs.
     
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  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Nothing Todd said took anything away form the importance of any other group or position.
     
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  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    What I'm not specifically buying is the lack of mention that Wr's (and now Te's) require as heavy and investment in terms of either draft position, or FA cash, it no longer is enough to simply draft a Qb with a high pick and call it "done".

    However as in all things there are caveats, for example a talented Wr w/a proven veteran Qb makes the young Qb's life much much easier, which can be a short cut. However your raw number OP does not acknowledge that caveat, undermining your point.

    Just at a glance, several of the Wr's you listed were high #1 picks, several were established NFL veterans (Joiner and Collinsworth for example), in fact in an odd way, if your list holds true Hartline stands to gain the most from Tannehill's maturity, moreso than Wallace as history shows a established Vet w/a up and coming young Qb will tend to excel.

    In fact, based on your research, Marshall's failure to elevate Henne was predictable, as history tends to show inplace Wr's or high draft pick Wr's w/a good Qb will outperform the traded for or signed Fa Wr.
     
  14. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I appreciate your input, Pauly. To contradict your first paragraph though, the thread isn't about pointing a finger at one variable significant to QB production/success. It's specifically about the QB-WR dynamic, not QB-Oline dynamic which is also significant.....not the coaching impact.... not the scheme fit impact... not the defense at the QB's back... nor how good his run support is. yada yada yada. I'm not isolating single seasons per se.... however, even behind a great Oline, the receivers have to be good enough to pose a threat or else defenses can bring extra pressure to nullify the great oline b/c they can trust their back end to keep the average receivers in check. Brady has a strong Oline, but it's not allowing him to pick apart defenses ATM b/c his receivers do little to dictate coverage or play-calling. So it still goes back to the dynamic between QB-WR. Ultimately you want ALL of it firing in sync, but I'm just focusing here on pass catchers.
     
  15. thisperishedmin

    thisperishedmin Well-Known Member

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    I almost didn't fist bump based on the promise of this honey jungle private badger pinky party. In the end, I decided the info deserved a bump more than my prostate.

    Thanks for some thorough data collection.
     
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  16. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    in blue
     
  17. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I think you're vastly underestimating the size of the giver's knuckles.



















    ...... orrr I'm underestimating the size of your..... :shifty:
     
  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Look at your list, how many Wr's were traded into similar situations?

    (young unproven qb).

    None, Chandler, Welker, Joiner all went to established Qb situations, rare to find a proven vet traded to an uncertain situation who still produced, FA is a different deal as it is relatively new.

    Arguably, the most successful big name FA wr would be..who?

    Appears that Wr/Qb development is difficult to find a shortcut that one can reliably show it works, Drafting or in place Wr's is the norm, over FA's or Trades

    BTW, Ahmad Rashad was a great Wr for Tarkington.
     
  19. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    hey, BTW.... shaddup. It's been like a year since I've gone full blown OCD up in here.
















    biatch
     
  20. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Great job phin. I've always used the Brady example when discussing this same thread topic. You took that and went ways above and beyond. Great stuff.

    The only thing I disagree with is Clayton, Duper, and Moore being top 10 trio all time. Don't get me wrong, I love the Marks bros. but I don't believe they're nearly on the level you seem to put them at. If I had to make a comparison to the modern day NFL, they're DeSean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin. Very talented but not elite. And I can name 10 receiving corps that are arguably better (just pure talent, no QB in the equation).

    In no order...

    Ocho Cinco, Houshmanzeda, Chris Henry
    Nelson, Jennings, Driver
    Nelson, Cobb, Jennings, and Jones
    Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Wes Welker
    Fitzgerald, Boldin, Breaston
    Andre Reed, James Lofton, Don Beebe
    Chris Carter, Randy Moss, Jake Reed
    Michael Irvin, Alvin Harper, Jay Novacek
    Rod Smith, Ed McCafrey, Shannon Sharpe
    Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley
    Issac Bruce, Torry Holy, Ricky Prohel
    Moss, Welker, Gaffney.

    Probably a few others if I took the time to think about it.
     
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  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Just to sort of highlight what my point is, a high #1 pick Qb, as history tends to show, needs a #1 pick Wr OR a young and up and coming Wr to grow with them, FA's and Trades tend to bring in fillin type Wr's #2's and slot Wr's.

    Only I'd extend the thought and add you have to now take Te's with high picks, rds #1-#3

    In fact the "wr in place' scenario seems rare on second thought, Roddy White is more the exception, Davone Bess is more how things play out, the Wr's in place tend to be shuffled out.
     
  22. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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  23. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    thanks buddy. had my coffee today. lol

    I'm just going by the NFL Film's list that has the trio in their Top 10 All Time. IMO it's more than just Clayton & Duper; it's Moore added in as well, which is why the trio makes the Top 10 list. That trio made coverage nearly impossible, and the stats over those 3 years support it. Marino was still great with Duper & Clayton alone once Moore retired, but Dan never again approached that level of '84-86 success, so IMO that makes our trio truly special. If you remove those 3 years, Dan's left with one 30+ TD season in 13 years. I mean- c'mon, they contributed to 14,000 yards & 122 TDs in 3 years amidst a record-breaking season that stood for like 20 years & 28 years. I respect your list, but I think the time during which they played can't be ignored. I don't think Miami's trio should be penalized for doing this in the mid 80's when receivers weren't all jacked up and when rules weren't geared to benefit the receivers.
     
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  24. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Joe Montana 1983 (ZERO 1,000 yard recievers) 3900 Yards 26 TD's 94.6 QBR = Lost NFC Championship 24-21 to Washington
    Joe Montana 1984 (ZERO 1,000 yard recievers) 3680 Yards 28 TD's 102.9 QBR = WON Superbowl

    Joe Montana 1985 (Jerry Rice now on board) 3653 Yards 27 TD's 91.3 QBR = Lost Wildcard game 19-17 to Giants
    Joe Montana 1986 (Jerry Rice - 1570 yds 15 TD's) 4289 yards 21 TD's 80.7 QBR = Lost Division game 49-3 to Giants
    Joe Montana 1987 (Jerry Rice 1078 yds 22 TD's ) 3054 yards 31 TD's 102.1 QBR = WON Superbowl

    As we can see, the addition of Jerry Rice to Joe Montana was nothing but merely a luxury. Joe Montana was great before Jerry Rice showed up and he was great after Jerry Rice arrived. The addition of Jerry Rice likely made it easier on Joe Montana, but he was getting it done without him just fine.

    What we notice in the career of Joe Montana, is a steady incline in efficiency over the course of his career, with a definate pinacle and then a decline as he aged and his skills faded. Who his recievers were had little bearing on his greatness, aside from a pure luxury standpoint. He won Superbowls without any Superstar Recievers and He put up excellent efficiency numbers without any Superstar Recievers.

    Another telling career is that of Dan Marino - Who had the same set of recievers in Mark Duper and Mark Clayton for 10 seasons, yet his QBR fluctuated from 108.9(1984) to as low as 76.9(1989). The Dolphins went 14-2 in 1984 and 8-8 in 1989. What this clearly tells us, is that WR's are not the influental factor on a Team or QB's success. They are purely a luxury item.



    Lets take the career of the greatest most talented Wide Reciever ever to play the game of football.

    I speak of none other than Calvin Johnson of the Detroit Lions who amassed an amazing 1954 Yards but had only 5 TD's while seeing his team go (4-12) WHY?? Because the Lions don't have a QB. Calvin Johnson means squat to winning football games ! With the best WR in the game, Matthew Stafford could muster a simpleton 79.8 QBR. Joe Montana put up 100+ QBR without a half of a Calvin Johnson.
    In his 4 years in Detroit - The Lions are a WHOPPING (22-42). Plug in Tom Brady or Peyton Manning without changing one single other player and you would have 4 years of playoffs.

    When I played QB, the WR position was the last position on the offense I cared about, because it had the least impact towards the teams success. As long as I had 5 guys up front that bought in, gave 100%, and did their jobs with pass pro and a couple of beasts to hand the ball to, we could throw out guys at WR until we found one that could catch. IT DIDN'T MATTER. Can you catch ? Yes - Your in. It didn't matter because as long as I had time in the pocket, we were winning. Really, how hard is it to find a guy that is half way smart enough to run the route he is suppossed to and catch the ball. I knew whether he would be open before he did, just by reading the coverages and knowing his route. If we found a couple that were great, and in some seasons we did, it made it that much easier. I've said "Wow" once or twice under my breath, because a guy took a 15 yarder, made a move, and scored. Thank You very much, but if he didn't, I was still going to score anyway.

    Great QB's win ! Great QB's get it done ! and while having a Wallace is a luxury - Great QB's don't need a Mike Wallace.

    Ryan Tannehill is becoming a great QB and it has little to do with Mike Wallace. Telling Matthews to get the #$@ off the field, has little to do with Wallace. His quicker decisions and more accurate and zip like throws has little to do with Wallace and much more to do with his reads and the confidence Sherm has in him this season. (This is not the same offensive play calling from last season). He exudes confidence this season, he did not last season. He is a leader this season, he was not last season. There is more to playing QB than throwing the ball to Wallace/Gibson/Hartline.

    You are seriously OVER-STATING the importance of Mike Wallace on Ryan Tannehill. Believe what you will - I'm done debating it.

    If you want to believe that Ryan Tannehill needs Mike Wallace or Brandon Gibson to be great, then have it. I know he doesn't.
     
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  25. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    My point is your #1 pick Qb pretty much needs a #1 pick Wr added before they arrive or immediately afterward to achieve a path to long term success.

    Second way is a Wr already on the roster who has talent but bad current Qb play is holding them back, adding a #1 pick Qb to that situation can lead to success.

    Third way is less than optimal, which is a FA Wr or a Trade, usually it does not help the young Qb develop.

    Even then it does not always work, the situation in Jacksonville for example, Blackmon is not going to make Gabbert that much better.

    Keep in mind that is for a young Qb, the situation is different for a Veteran Qb, as I look at your list, the FA Wr's who produced and the ones traded for went to a Vet Qb situation when they had continued success.

    INOW, your view of situation via just stats is to limited, there are differences between Vet Qb+Wr talent and Young Qb + Wr talent, the young Qb needs to have a high pick Wr added to develop unless there is a Roddy White or Brian Hartline already on the roster when a Ryan or Tannehill are drafted.
     
  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Taking your point to its logical conclusion, means a QB can have literally anyone at WR and it doesn't matter, which would negate the practice of ever going after "great" WRs. Your logic absolutely dictates, that if the GM has a choice between Legedu Nannee and Jerry Rice, you might as well pick whoever is cheaper, because WR skill is irrelevant if you have a great QB.

    All we're saying is that it is a much more symbiotic relationship.

    Oh and if you don't think Tannehill's numbers would have been significantly last year if he had Megatron instead of Legedu, then your opinion is even less valid.
     
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  27. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I understand what you're saying, and an eyeball Mk I look at the stats supports your argument. There is correlation, but is there causation? An alternate theory could be that great OL play gives QBs and WRs time enough to make plays and what you're seeing could be the result of great OL play, but the credit is being given to the WRs/QBs.
    I'm not enough of a stat nerd to run the regressions you'd need to try and separate the effect of the OL from the effect of the WR, but my gut feeling is that some of those QBs with elevated ratings when they had elite WRs playing with them also benefitted from elite OL play at the same time. HOF careers tend not to happen in isolation, they tend to happen when you have some very good team mates. The number of HOF players who predominantly played on average to poor teams is very low. Dick Butkus is about the only player I can think of that fits that category.

    The running game's effect on the passing game has been pretty conclusively shown to be a very minor factor from the statistical analyses I've seen.
     
  28. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    This is all for nothing. They both depend on one another. Who is more important is probably a pretty trivial amount statistically.
     
  29. Finrunner

    Finrunner Season Ticket Holder

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    Don't beat yourself up. The first thing I was thinking as I was reading down the post (before I saw any comments) is that it was a synergistic (hey! a big word for me!) relationship, but upon reflection, I got that it was exactly what he was saying.

    Btw, well done on the post, Todd. The time these posts take... well, much appreciated.

    The other thought I had was that I'd really enjoy hearing a rebuttal from Keith (KB21)! I could be wrong (and if so, all apologies), but I'm guessing he probably favors the QB a lot in QB/WRs relationship judging by some of his past posts. That could be some good pop-corn enjoying fun!
     
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  30. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    The OP wasn't meant to be about who's more important, but rather how important the QB's pass catchers are to his production and success. The QB is still the queen piece, but just like chess- his ability alone isn't enough to consistently get the job done, especially against a tougher defense.
     
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  31. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    There are also several scenarios with trade or FA being the least effective as compared to drafting with a high pick, or a Wr or Te already in place.

    I do believe the Qb makes the young Wr, a Vet Wr will make a young Qb better if they have games between them to develop chemistry.

    Also think that Te now has to be viewed as needing a high draft pick investment to be the most effective.
     
  32. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    I meant the conversation as a whole. Seems to me to be a "who is more important". Kind of like the past "we need a qb" conversations.
     
  33. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    No, what I'm saying is you don't need a GREAT WR to win a championship or move an offense. That WR is a luxury position. Having a great one is definately worth while, it makes a great QB's job that much easier. What I'm saying is that having a great one, doesn't make a QB great. That the QB is great because he can play QB not because he has a great WR. That Joe Montana's career is not impacted in such a way for having Jerry Rice, that Jerry Rice's career is for having Joe Montana / Steve Young. Joe Montana did not need Jerry Rice to be great nor does Ryan Tannehill need Mike Wallace. Joe Montana was winning Superbowls without a Jerry Rice.

    Mike Wallace / Brandon Gibson / Brian Hartline and Charles Clay ...as if these guys are some kind of HOF group. None of them will be in the HOF.

    I think ALL I'm saying is ..... You don't become a great QB because you have a great WR. You can either play QB or you can't and Mike Wallace has little effect on that. If Ryan Tannehill continues to grow, develop, increase his efficiency, his leadership, his understanding of the offense, his understanding of defensive schemes, and puts in the film work and offseason work to become a great QB... It will have little to do with Mike Wallace.
     
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  34. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    The All Pro Dwight Clark says hello, you know- the jersey of the receiver the Niners retired!!! ..... the guy responsible for "The Catch" that propelled San Fran into the '82 SB. And Montana had his own Mike Wallace back then- Freddie Solomon who was a borderline Pro Bowler and paired with Clark formed one of the league's better WR tandems. Like I said the other day- history lessons.

    WRONGGGG.
    1986- Montana was on IR b/c of a week 1 back injury.
    1987- Montana missed the final 3 games and was re-inserted against the Vikings in the playoffs where he came out flat after a month off and was replaced at half time by Young. '87 also saw 4 position changes along his Oline which did him no favors in the playoffs, hence Steve Young running for 158 yards.
    1985? Gimme a break dude. There was some amazing competition that year, including one of the greatest teams ever assembled- the '85 Bears, plus Parcells & Lawrence Taylor's Giants who won 2 SB's with most of that '85 team. Give due respect where it's deserved. I never once said that a team should be able to win the Super Bowl every goddam year w/ a strong receiving corps. Rice was also a rookie in '85, and Rice had nothing to do with San Fran's aging O-line from having their asses handed to them all day by LT & Co.

    Jerry Rice was a continuation of the strong surrounding talent that Montana had with All Pro Clark & long-time-49er Solomon. You can't say what Montana did without a strong supporting cast b/c he was NEVER w/o one!!

    hahahahaha sigh. Montana had a consistently strong receiving corps all through his time in San Fran. If you think Rice didn't contribute to Montana's incline in efficiency then I guess you also believe that after 11 years of being a nobody, Rich Gannon magically transformed himself into a Pro Bowler, NFL MVP, and 3x AFC POY with Rice's arrival. Might as well throw the easter bunny in there too. Rice won 3 SBs with two different QBs, won SB MVP of one of 'em, and had THREE of his QBs earn 5 NFL MVP honors!!! Yup, total coinkidink. Rice didn't help that at all. :unsure:

    This doesn't tell you jack crap. Nice of you to cherry pick random seasons to support your delusional point, and if you have to resort to cherry picking random seasons then you really have no point at all. This isn't about random seasons; it's about the entire body of work. It's about giving your QB a strong supporting cast to better achieve consistency and maximum potential, not make life as difficult as possible for him by forcing him to make do with an average cast out of some silly display of bravado. That doesn't work in today's NFL. If the veteran HOF'er Brady can't do it in the playoffs with injuries to his key starters [see the '09 loss to Balt w/o Welker and the '12 loss w/ an injured Gronk], then a young, developing Tannehill sure as sh** shouldn't be asked or expected to do so.

    HA. nother history lesson a comin'. Calvin caught just 5 TDs simply b/c of circumstance. He was stopped just shy of the goal line on numerous occasions, and when Detroit was near the endzone, opposing defenses could literally throw the kitchen sink at him [like in the pic below]. Why? Here's why:
    #2 WR, Burelson- IR
    #3 WR, Titus Young- permanently benched for behavior problems
    Starting slot WR, Broyles- IR... after already missing the beginning of the year while recovering from injury.
    Starting TE, Pettigrew- IR
    Lions had ZERO depth at receiver beyond this, hence resorting to practice squad Kris Durham and signing Mike Thomas mid season off his couch. That's the importance of a surrounding cast. With a strong one-- a young, promising, talented QB like Stafford can throw for 5k yards, 41 TDs, and 97.2 QBR.... and with a decimated one we can watch his TD production get cut in half while his QBR drops below 80. That's how volatile it is, and you're blind to not see it.

    [​IMG]
    LOL. Yup, coaching? doesn't matter. Oline? Doesn't matter. Defense? Doesn't matter. :unsure:
    Manning & Brady have NEVER shown they can win consistently in the absence of either a great supporting cast or a great defense at their back. Brady & Manning still need surrounding pieces to do what they do best, and with those surrounding pieces their HOF ability goes on full display. Get it through your head- IT. IS. A. SYMBIOTIC. AND. MUTUAL. RELATIONSHIP.

    when you played QB you strapped on a leather helmet. The game has changed since then. Today's QB typically has 3 seconds or less to find an OPEN receiver, plus with pressure now coming from anywhere and everywhere. Those receivers are involved in their own competitions, and if they can't win those or convert the play on THEIR end, then the QB doesn't mean crap. Like New England clearly displayed vs the Jets last week, a QB can't make up for average or poor play from his receivers. Brady can't will an average receiver to get open; he can't will an average receiver to consistently understand coverage and make the correct reads; he can't will them to make plays after the catch like great receivers do; he can't will them to beat coverage deep, leave enough room between the receiver & sideline, track the ball properly, and then haul in the long pass to convert chunk yardage; and he can't will them to make the tough grabs, you know- since he throws roughly 200 incompletions each year!! The receiver's ability is linked directly to his QB's efficiency.

    .....RAH RAH RAH, SIS BOOM BAH.
    I guess all 23 modern day HOF QB's, all of whom had strong supporting casts, weren't really that great after all, eh? :unsure:
    Every HOF QB has had a "Mike Wallace" in one form or another. I gave you a list. Look at it before spouting off with this silliness.

    jiminy christmas sh-- on a stick, more of this from you? I'm one of, if not the longest dating proponents of Tannehill on this forum. Enough with this irrelevant nonsense from you as if people are down-talking Tannehill. Like just about every QB to play the game, Tannehill becoming a great QB is linked to his surrounding cast, and the last time I checked- Wallace is indeed a member of his surrounding cast. Just b/c there's more to playing QB than throwing to Wallace/Gibson/Hartline, that doesn't mean the actual throwing part to Wallace/Gibson/Hartline is insignificant. Oh and- no kidding it's not the same offensive play calling from last year!! That's b/c Wallace & Gibson help open up the playbook and offer possibilities that the abysmal duo of Bess/Hartline couldn't, possibilities that BENEFIT Tannehill, genius.

    Tell me, WHERE THE HECK did I ever state this is ALLLLL about Wallace?! WHERE?!!!! I've repeatedly said "pass catchers", "WR corps", "WR unit", "surrounding cast", "supporting cast".....all GROUP RELATED STUFF. You're so full of this straw argument crap it's grown annoying to the 10th degree. Combine that with an intentional display of stubborn ignorance and it's worse than dealing with a troll.

    No, you don't KNOW it. You don't know jack about it, and it's on full neon-lit billboard display. Tannehill most certainly DOES need a strong supporting cast to be great in today's NFL, just as all QB's do. C'mon then- show us the list of great QB's to succeed and achieve their greatness w/o a strong supporting cast. And for clarity, strong supporting cast doesn't necessarily have to include a "star receiver", and a "star receiver" doesn't necessarily = strong supporting cast. It can be about the overall quality & ability of the group as a whole. Just to nip any future straw attempt in the bud.

    Hey, so ummm..... why didn't you address the part about alllll the drafted receivers by NE over the past decade
    [including two 2nd rounders and two 3rds] who couldn't even cut it with Brady? If the quality of the pass catchers don't matter like you assert, then Brady should've turned those receivers into reliable starters and succeeded with them w/o New England having to bring in Moss, give us a high draft pick for Welker, or use another high pick on Gronkowski. And the Colts should've known this "revelation" of yours and not needed to invest THREE 1st rounders on Wayne, Clark, and Gonzales for Manning after already having spent a 1st rounder on Harrison. But the fact is- your argument is full of ****.
     
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  35. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    then stop trying to stubbornly argue against others as if they're saying "great WR = great QB" when NO ONE has said such a thing.

    Montana most certainly DID have a strong surrounding pre-Rice as I mentioned previously. The uber reliable All Pro Dwight Clark paired with the speedy, athletic, ideally-suited-for-Walsh's-offense Freddie Solomon were a STRONG receiving duo for years, and 3x Pro Bowl TE Russ Francis wasn't a friggin' cupcake. Anyone who thinks that's not a strong supporting cast needs their head examined.... or ears checked.... to see if there's clear view of the other from the inside.
     
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  36. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    My GOD you are one long winded guy for someone that has never played a down of organized football. :gun_bandana:



    We're not talking about Strong Supporting Casts - :offtopic:We are talking about WR's, specifically how ULTRA-IMPORTANT Mike Wallace is to Ryan Tannehills success this season. Or Ultra Important great recievers are to making great QB's great. (Which is :crapstrom:)

    There are 50 recievers or more in this league that Aaron Rodgers could turn into a PRO-BOWL player or your definition of "GOOD supporting cast" . Aaron Rodgers has SQUAT average NFL recievers that he makes look great. :headwall: Aaron Rodgers had a 108 QBR last season WITH S-Q-U-A-T. He had SQUAT for a RB - He was sacked 58 FREAKEN TIMES. Green Bay was 11-5 - IF your a GREAT QB - you elevate EVERYTHING AROUND YOU. A QB cannot have a worse supporting cast than Aaron Rodgers had in 2012 and yet he was still GREAT. Which is the CRUX of my point - A Great QB is GREAT because he is GREAT. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY PASS CATCHER. YOU CANNOT MAKE PEYTON MANNING SUCK. Put whoever you want with the guy. He is going to elevate them.

    Dwight Clark on the Rams is just another BUM Tight End. Dwight Clark on the 49ers - Pro Bowler. IF NOT CLARK - the next guy.
    Freddie Solomon was a journeymen WR. There were probably 20 Tight Ends and 100 WR's that Montana could have won the Superbowl with that season. :deadhorse:

    RYAN TANNEHILL DOES NOT NEED A MIKE WALLACE TO BE GREAT. I don't know how much more obvious this could be. :plzdie:


    And the WR position is overrated. Good enough are a dime a dozen. Does that mean Aaron Rodgers wouldn't love to have Mega-Tron - Hardly - It just means he doesn't need him to be GREAT. He already is great. :dolphin:


    For christ sake he has turned Greg Jennings and Jordy Nelson into Pro-Bowlers. Your standard Average NFL WR.

    Dan Marino did the same for Duper and Clayton. Turned Standard undersized average WR's into Pro-Bowlers...

    And so it is....RIGHT ON DOWN YOUR WASTE OF A LIST. :yawn: Inflated numbers CAUSED by HOF QB's. :thanx:
     
  37. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    ....other than all those downs of organized football I played, including quarterback.

    It was my thread, so I think I know what the hell the topic is. It's about pass-catching supporting casts, which is what Wallace & Gibson contribute to, and what guys like Rice & Moss contributed to. If you think Tannehill would be having the same success this year with a repeat of just Bess & Hartline then you should probably quit your day job and spend all that time trying to relearn football.

    .... just as there have been an ABUNDANCE of QBs throughout history to make the Pro Bowl thanks to a great supporting cast at WR/TE/pass-cartching RB. It's symbiotic. And no- Rodgers will NOT turn a poor supporting cast into a good one. He can't "make them" be more supportive. That's an asinine notion and contradicts the definition of the word.

    I've heard some dumb stuff on here but this takes the cake. Huge LOL @ the notion Nelson & Jennings are JAG receivers. That makes the Packers stoooo-pid for drafting Nelson 35th overall in '08.... and even stoo-pider for using a 2nd rounder on an FBS player [Jennings]. You know how I and the rest of the NFL know you're full of crud? Matt Flynn. 480 yards, 6 TDs, and 136.4 QBR in his lone start in 2011, best statistical game by a QB in Packers history. Gee, how did he do that? Elite QB play? N-O-P-E. Here's a clip of the game. It would take a real dimwit or the most ignorant person on the planet to not recognize ALL the plays Flynn's SUPPORTING CAST make for him, the same guy who couldn't beat out a pile of garbage at QB in Oakland. 5 of those TDs and 200+ yards were due to Flynn's targets making plays for him.

    [video=youtube;Adud3fLmUJ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adud3fLmUJ8[/video]

    C'mon, make my day and give me a huge chuckle.... lemme see you credit Nelson's 163 yard, 3 TD day to Matt f'n Flynn.

    He was a WR, genius. LOL @ you dissing a guy when don't even know who the hell he is. Hey, so by "IF NOT CLARK - the next guy", then why were there SO MANY receivers who COULDN'T cut it with Brady, Montana, and Young? I guess they wanted it that way, eh? :unsure:

    Time for more medicine, and another history lesson:
    During Montana & Young's time, the Niners drafted 22 receivers. Only 4 of them [Jerry Rice, Terrell Owens, Dwight Clark, and John Taylor] were worth a damn. So why was that? What happened to "IF NOT CLARK - the next guy"? A 40 year old Rice was a Pro Bowler with Rich Gannon, and Owens was a stud with multiple QBs, however what we did see were Rice & Owens [and the strong pass-catching casts they contributed to] elevating their QB's production to levels they had never seen before, FACT. Dwight Clark was a top receiver when Montana was on the bench as a rookie. He was 3rd in catches, 8th in TDs, and 9th in yards in '80 with a mix of DeBerg & rookie Montana. Anyone who thinks John Taylor was just another guy obviously didn't watch him play. So, 4 out of 22 drafted receivers. Hmph. Contradicts all this hogwash you're spewing.

    And what about the 10th overall pick JJ Stokes who was supposed to become Rice's heir? If the QB makes the receiver then why was he a bust? I guess Steve Young just didn't like him eh?

    LOL @ the notion an 8 year 49er being a "journeyman". PATHETIC. Niner fans would laugh at you.

    you've provided no such examples that contradict this. NONE. If it's so obvious then GIVE US SOME PROOF!! Show us the list of QB's to make the HOF w/o a strong pass-catching cast!! Provide a list of who made All Pro that year w/o a strong pass-catching cast. If not, then zip it.

    Prove it!! Otherwise you're continuing to talk out your ***. You're a WR racist is what you are. If anything you said were true then there'd be ZERO receivers drafted in the first 3 rounds every year. And your definition of "good enough" is not the definition used by the rest of the football world. Dan Henning, is that you?

    Of course Rodgers is a great QB on his own merit, but that has NOTHING to do with how much of his potential would be attained w/o a great surrounding cast, and you can NOT say Rodgers would be equally productive with an average bunch of Joe's b/c he's NEVER played with one to support that notion. He's has had a slew of talented 2nd rounders and a 3rd rounder at his disposal every year.

    HAHAHAHA. See the comments above about Matt Flynn. So I guess Aaron Rodgers somehow turned them into 2nd rounders to begin with even though he didn't play with them in college? So tell me, what's your opinion on the general talent level of a 2nd rounder. By your statements, 2nd Round = average. <completely absurd> It's like you think receivers are unopposed on every play and face no challenges of their own prior to the QB throwing the ball, as well as after it's in their hands.

    Oh boy. Like I said--- WR RACIST. You live in a bubble if you actually believe that nonsense.

    Ahhh, right, QB's inflate the numbers of HOF receivers but HOF receivers making plays on their end don't inflate numbers of QB's? yeah ok. LIke I said- symbiotic relationship. So to clarify, you're saying it was a Montana-like Rich Gannon who allowed Jerry Rice to continue producing at a Jerry Rice level even though Gannon was an 11 year afterthought before joining Rice, Brown, and Co.?

    And of course Peyton Manning will elevate those around him. Who said he wouldn't? Do you not read? We've repeatedly said it's a MUTUAL, SYMBIOTIC relationship, which is why Manning struggled in 2010 when his pass catchers were injured and the football world wasn't sure if Manning suddenly un-became Manning. You're the only one arguing against this stuff and ridiculously asserting that all receivers are created equal.

    Wait, I know the problem. You said you played quarterback. You're bitter toward receivers b/c you had good receivers around you who couldn't turn you into anything worthwhile, so you became jaded b/c of it, and if you were to accept the fact that receivers help a QB reach his full potential, you'd be accepting the fact that you were a hopeless failure of a QB. Bullseye isn't it. [​IMG]


    BTW, your smiley usage needs a lot of work.
     
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