Also not a surprise. Its what Philbin has been saying from Day 1 and many misinterpreted that into the "we don't need a #1 quality WR" argument.
What I think about Brandon Gibson is, I like winning. Everyone likes winning. And when you're winning, everything looks great. But if you switch up a few things here and there, maybe that touchdown to Fleener doesn't get called back by a procedural penalty, and/or Harry Douglas gets both feet down on that ball in the end zone, and now you're losing, suddenly things look a little different. Brandon Gibson's production and effort purely on its own have been nothing special. Gibson's 1.49 yards per pass play is about where Davone Bess' range was. In fact Davone's was considerably higher last year at 1.69 yards per pass play. Gibson's 6.9 yards per attempt in his direction is considerably lower than Bess' 8.1 yards per attempt established in 2012. Gibson's had 2 drops already in 3 games on 20 attempts, versus 14 catches. That means he's dropped 12.5% of the catchable balls gone his direction. Bess dropped 11.6% of the catchable balls that went his direction in 2012. Gibson has produced 54 yards after the catch, for a 3.9 yard average per catch. That includes 2 missed tackles Gibson created. In 2012, Davone Bess created 266 yards after the catch, a 4.4 yard average per catch, including 14 missed tackles he created. Gibson has yet to score a touchdown, though obviously it's early. Davone Bess did score one touchdown last year. There's almost no measure by which one could OBJECTIVELY say that Brandon Gibson is outperforming what Davone Bess did in the same offense in 2012. But we're winning. So it all tastes better regardless.
I can. Because every time I turned around Bess was falling short of the first down marker. And Gibson gets there. Every time.
I don't understand this argument at all, because its predicated on the Gibson's contributions are immaterial to us winning.
He's good but I'm not sure he's that much better than Devone Bess. I don't remember Bess dropping passed.* In retrospect trading Bess was a bad move. But the Phins have Dustin Keller at the time so I guess he wasn't deemed essential.* It's nice to see Richard Matthews making some plays on Sunday.*
I was a big Bess fan but Gibson has been a clear upgrade. He's not just doing the same things Bess did, but his conversions have been longer. I don't believe Bess would have made those plays for us That Gibson has made this season. It looks like another example of a FO decision that was bashed by many here but was the right move.
Gibson has created 10 first downs or touchdowns on 20 balls thrown his direction, which is 50%. Bess created first downs or touchdowns on 40% of passes thrown his direction. Might you be overstating the two extra first downs Gibson created, especially since the quarterback likely plays a very large role in this ratio?
Hard to compare production #s when Bess played and STARTED in 13 games last year (he was hurt for 3) and Gibson has played but not started in each of the first three games. I know you are giving averages and that's fine. But you are asking for an objective measure and it's honestly difficult based on their participation in the offense. Bess had 760 snaps total last year, 58 snaps a game. Gibson has 111 snaps total, 37 snaps per game. Although each player has been targeted around 7 times per game... which means Gibson (Gibby... Gibbles... Gibblicious... GIB IT TO ME!) has more targets comparatively speaking (more targets per snap). He's a bigger part of the offense... no?
Here's my question, why does % of first downs of total catches matter. Tell me the % of third down catches that turned into first downs. That is a stat I would like to know. This year and last.
Through the first 3 games of last year and this year for us: 2012 Bess: 13/20 | 174 yrds | 0 TDs | 8 first downs 2013 Gibson: 14/20 | 137 yrds | 0 TDs | 10 first downs 2 major differences? We are 3-0 instead of 1-2 and most telling, Gibson is the #3 WR while Bess was really the #2. plus he obviously fits the role this offense wants while Bess did not.
In a vacuum, he's less productive... just looking at stats... but we both know where each player has lined up for those targets.
Hmm. I would like to know if anyone does. I still love Bess and love what he did for us as an undrafted guy especially. But as far as an eye test, Gibson helps the team MORE. So far at least. 3 games.
I think that is colored a bit by the wins. Yes, he played a part in helping us win those games. But Davone Bess also did a lot to help us win in 2012 (and prior). If the rest of the team let him down a bit more than the rest of the team has let down a Brandon Gibson, that shouldn't affect the comparison between the two. People act like I'm jimmying the stats to say what I want them to say. These are the same stats I've been using to talk about receiver success on the football field for years. They're extremely basic and production/evidence based. I'm not digging through some obscure, arcane gamebook data to find some hidden stat that means absolutely nothing on the football field. This is basic sh-t.
As do I. It's not a question that can be thoroughly answered in 3 games. I was just giving the results thus far.
your memory fails you Maybe Bess was slot when we went 3 wide... but I recall when starting the game in 21 formation and seeing Bess obviously lined up outside the #'s. Is there a website that has snaps by formation? I don't believe PFF tracks that.
Davone Bess ran 70 percent of his routes from the slot. About 73 percent of the balls thrown his direction came while he was in the slot. How sure are you about my memory failing me?
maybe its rosy red glasses doing their thing - but I feel like Gibson made several 3rd and intermediate to 3rd and long plays that just didn't happen last year - regardless of Bess.
Especially after seeing Mathews make some nice plays last week. Gibson is an upgrade over Bess from what i've seen so far. Just seems like a better target in general. Any one of our WR's can have a big game on any Sunday. I dig it. When Fiedler was QB'ing if someone hit 100 yds it was cause for a parade.
PFF, and yes about 94.5 percent of Gibson's routes have been run from the slot. Even if you just isolate Bess' work from the slot, all of the stat comparisons I held up still run in Bess' favor. In fact Bess' yards per route figure goes up quite a bit.
That's the point I was trying to make earlier. My impression is that we had longer 3rd down conversions this year. I don't know if it's b/c the run game is struggling or what, but it feels like we've had a ton of 3rd and 7+ this year. And we've converted many of them. I don't see Bess converting those. Bess was great in the shorter ranges but above say 8 yards Gibson is much better. I read somewhere that we're 2nd in the league on those intermediate passes (I'm guessing the 12 - 20 yard range). While part of that is RT's improvement another big part is the WR additions of Wallace and Gibson.
No point in explaining yourself. Fans always latch onto whoever is wearing the teal and orange. They don't want to hear about the guys who aren't here anymore. And they forget quickly. Remember how quickly Joey Porter became an absolute bum? Nobody remembered how he played in 2008. For the record, I've been very pleasantly surprised by Gibson. But I'm not going to forget how good Bess was for this team.
Me too. But the question turned to Bess versus Gibson. Bess was more productive with worse quarterback play and no threat on the outside like Wallace to help him get open underneath. I'm not saying Miami should have kept Bess. I was a big proponent of the idea of Bess and Hartline being mutually exclusive on this roster. Nor am I saying Gibson should not be on this roster, regardless of what my opinion was when he signed. The fact that everyone ALWAYS has to pivot these topics into those things to make it indirectly about Jeff Ireland's general manager decisions is just wrongheaded. I'm just stating the facts and evidence about a topic that was posted.
He produced more yards. But Gibson has caught more balls & produced more first downs that have helped lead to higher scores in the first 3 games. Those are also facts.
I do think people are minimizing what Bess did for us, but I also think based on watching the two play that SO FAR Gibson has been very good and probably better. For argument's sake though, let's assume they both are equal in terms of what they can do in speed, route running, catching the football, and picking up 1st downs. If all of that is equal, wouldn't you still prefer the 6'0, 207lb 26 year old player over the 5'10, 195lb 28 year old player?
I would say that the number threads that point out that the FO did in fact make good decisions are a drop in the bucket compared to the number of threads that bash every FO decision.
Not what I was saying. Stats are useful at times, but using your eyes shows you that Gibson has done some things that Bess could not do. Gibson's size, athletic ability and aggressiveness with the ball in his hands are huge elements to his game that Bess (who I liked) does not have. Gibson is actually a threat lined up near the endzone too. He gives us more. Will the numbers say Bess was more productive (stat wise) than Gibson at the end of the year? Maybe. I don't think that's the only way to judge though.
