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Ryan Tannehill vs. Pass Protection

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Sep 25, 2013.

  1. Sumlit

    Sumlit Well-Known Member

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    That happens to all QB, specially young ones. The point remains that the protection, or lack thereof, is constantly placing Tannehill in these situation in which he faces pressure very early on the drop back and is forced to get rid of the ball quickly, or be potentially sacked.

    If the opposite were true, meaning the protection is consistently giving Tannehill plenty of time, on average, to get through his reads and make a pass, throw away, or scramble, and yet Tannehill is still getting sacked a lot, then you'd have a point about Tannehill being held largely accountable.

    However this is not the case. He is facing pressure early, and only by his ability to get rid of the ball so quickly, are things not worse than they currently are.
     
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  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    1. Ryan Tannehill is sacked 29% of the time on occasions he holds the ball longer than 2.5 seconds. This is 1st in the league, by FAR.

    2. When Ryan Tannehill is sacked, the average time to have him on the ground is 3.56 seconds, This is 7th-lowest in the league. 7th-highest is 4.41 seconds.

    3. When Ryan Tannehill scrambles, the average time before he is off to the races is 4.30 seconds. This is 5th-lowest in the league. 5th-highest is 5.40 seconds.

    Sorry, this is all very inconsistent with your theorizing that the problem is not that the protection gives Tannehill very little time to throw, but rather that Tannehill sucks at helping the protection out.
     
  3. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    All I can think about is Mike Wallace. Not many deep routes have developed by the 2.1 second mark.
     
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  4. Canad-phin

    Canad-phin Active Member

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    I feel liek when he is scaked which seems to be what the data is suggesting, its very quick. It drives me crazy actually. Some of the plays you showed seemed like they were the ones we might be trying to get the ball deep but he doesn't have time for the play to develop. I also feel like the pressure gets their in a straight line, meaning its not looping around the LT doing the full arc and then hitting him, it seem like guys just get to run straight at him. If it was the arc, which has happened and he has gotten sacked, I feel like he would have better lanes to escape. Right now guys just bullrush or run free to him and there are zero lanes to escape.
     
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  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Criticism #1: Ryan Tannehill needs to stop holding onto the ball so long!
    Answer #1: He gets the football out of his hands in the 3rd-shortest amount of time in the NFL.

    Criticism #2: But when he doesn't get rid of the football on a quick read, on those occasions he holds it too long!
    Answer #2: Ryan Tannehill's sacks take on average 3.56 seconds before he's on the ground, 7th-lowest time in the league.

    Criticism #3: Then he should be scrambling, other QBs move and scramble, he waits too long to scramble!
    Answer #3: Ryan Tannehill averages 4.30 seconds with the ball in his hands before he scrambles, 5th-quickest in the league.

    Criticism #4: But he's not throwing the football away. He needs to throw the ball away under pressure, like the other QBs!
    Answer #4: Quarterbacks on average throw the football away 7.59% of all drop backs under pressure. Tannehill has done it 7.50% of the time.

    Criticism #5: Then he needs to scramble more often. He's not scrambling instead of taking the sack!
    Answer #5: Quarterbacks on average scramble 5.53% of all drop backs under pressure. Tannehill has done it 5.00% of the time.

    Shall we call this one a day?
     
  6. Shamboubou

    Shamboubou Well-Known Member

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    I think people are also getting hung up on Tannehill avoiding sacks by scrambling, which is just one way to avoid a sack. It seems like Tannehill tries to avoid sacks more often by getting rid of the ball more quickly. Not saying that its better one or the other, I wish he would move in the pocket a little better. He needs to watch some old Marino film and see how that man moved around in the pocket.

    I'm fine with him not throwing the ball away, I personally hate that play unless its completely obvious your going to get sacked on a scramble or something. I'd rather him hang onto the ball when nobody is open and try and wait it out.

    He needs to get MUCH BETTER at ball security. I'd venture to say that he fumbles more per sack than any QB in the NFL this year.

    He still has improved by leaps and bounds. I can't wait to see how much better he gets in the future. For right now though just enjoy what we have. Stop finding something to complain about with our franchise QB that has led us to a 3-0 start, with some clutch game winning drives. Sit back and Enjoy.
     
  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    To a certain extent, fumbles really are just a function of sacks.

    There's some variation due to player skill. I'm not sure I've ever been tempted to say Tannehill is bad at holding onto the ball even despite all the criticism of his smaller hands.

    There's also some variation due to player skill the other way. Osi Umenyiora has a strange quality where an exceptionally high percentage of his sacks involve stripping the football.
     
  8. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    This might all be true, but it doesn't necessarily represent whether the sack is the fault of the QB or someone else. If a QB holds the ball for longer than 2.5 seconds, and they aren't sacked, it could be because their blocking is holding up, or it could be because they can buy extra time when the blocking breaks down.
     
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  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Lol..man, this is a tough one to decipher, im spending hours trying to figure out where his ceiling is... I think we first have to accept that when it comes to this specific trait, he is not Andrew luck or Russell Wilson, who are two guys who have no clock in their head when it comes to pressure, they see it no matter how quick, and react with precise athleticism, I think we need to stop thinking in the back of our minds that because he payed receiver he should have the trait that few have, it really looks to the eye that he isn't apt to evade the pressure, but, when you have an inordinately less amount of time, which your numbers prove, and keeping in mind were talking about a Qb With a high pocket ceiling and the fact that he can run on occasion, once the line gets better and gives him more time, we should have a QB who creates his status from the pocket, but also one that can hurt you on occasion with his feet, which is more than what we have seen the first three weeks, which all projects that if he can list a 94 rating as is, his ceiling will be even higher once the lines improves on talent.
     
  10. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Have they rolled him out more than 3 times in 3 games?


    I know they don't like to, but it would help....
     
  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think that awareness comes into play here, it's one thing to take the hit, it's another to not be aware that it's coming, if your aware, you brace, if not, your floppy.
     
  12. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I fully agree with that. Fully.

    He does not see or manipulate the field like those two, nor does he feel pressure like those two. You only need to watch to get that much. Those two are up with Drew Brees for the most uncanny ability in the league that way, IMO.

    But that doesn't mean he's bad at it. Those two are exceptional, IMO. The stats may not reflect it yet with Luck, in large part because he's (IMO) disturbingly inaccurate when he resets his feet and tries to throw the ball off a scramble, but those two are to me coming up quickly to become two of the best in the NFL.
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Marino had a specific talent that's not teachable.
     
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  14. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I think the applicable criticism here is that he needs to hold on to the ball longer and avoid taking sacks while doing so.
     
  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    agreed, I mean Wilson is doing 360's and sh&$ while he's scrambling, the dexterity from the waist below is not there with Ryan, however, that doesn't mean we can't get excited about his pocket potential that those two guys might not have, alongside better protection, right?
     
  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Generally when it comes to that ability to feel and deal with the rush, move around and make people miss, the uncanniness, etc...I've always considered Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Rivers and Romo to be the best at it. I think Luck and Wilson join them.

    But that's kind of an elite group for that category. And I don't think there's much space between Tannehill and any of the rest, including guys like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.
     
  17. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I also think its important to keep in mind that the QB controls a lot in terms of recognizing blitzes and adjusting blocking schemes. I don't think anyone here has enough information to pass judgement one way or another, but for example, this play:

    [​IMG]

    one could criticize the play call for not giving the QB a quick-option, but the QB very well could have the pre-snap authority to adjust what the backs are supposed to do. Its a difficult thing to decipher, because we don't know what the QB has the latitude to do, and what he doesn't; or what his reads and calls are.
     
  18. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I agree that its really an elite type of skill. But I'm not sure I'd put Tannehill in the same group as guys like Manning and Brady. They don't use physical ability to buy extra time, but they do use mental ability. They are great at reading and understanding defenses, adjusting protections, understanding their own team's abilities so well, that they usually can create a pocket for themselves that only requires a step or two to buy extra time.
     
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  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I disagree with that. The pre-snap look showed one linebacker in blitz, and so the Dolphins had TWO protectors stay in the backfield. Having seven in to block five players is plenty. Perhaps too much, even.

    That's not a pre-snap read where you make a hot route adjustment, if you've got extra men in to protect.

    You can't just keep going hot all the time because one linebacker placed himself a little close to the line prior to the snap. That's a quick way to die on the football field. Punt, punt, punt, punt.

    You have to have something in between. You have to have routes breaking at different timing intervals. On that particular play, the route with the earliest break was the slot receiver, who was taken away. From there, you're just stuck waiting because both of your other routes on the play were designed to take a long time to develop.
     
  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yes. They get the football out of their hands very quickly.

    And so does Ryan Tannehill.
     
  21. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    So the two protectors in the backfield were based off the play-call or because one LB showed blitz? We don't know if the play called for two protectors, one protector, or zero protectors. We don't know if the QB made the call for one extra protector, or two extra protectors. For all we know, the play called for one back to run a route, and the QB decided to keep him in.
     
  22. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Right, my point is using blocking schemes, and manipulating the pocket to gain extra time. I think Brady and Manning do it a lot better than Tannehill at this point.
     
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  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yet none of it really matters because the Dolphins needed one more receiver to be breaking that could have been thrown the ball with quicker timing. Or at least a route concept that got a guy open.
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But I think that they have more time to do that, which brings us back to square one.
     
  25. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Disagree here. His theory is perfectly plausible. If our protection was real bad, but Tanny was good at avoiding sacks, then he his average time to sack would not be 7th lowest it would be a little higher. Why? Because he's good at avoiding sacks so the good ones buy some time and get sacked 1/2 a second or a second later. Tanny could be running right into the defender. Lowering his time to sack numbers. Not saying this is true, at all, just illustrating how his theory would hold up. It could be 100% wrong. But it's plausible.

    What it sounds like, is our protection is real bad and Tanny isn't on the level of the escape artists back there, but is probably average. He's not causing the sack numbers but he's not helping them in any way either, and some think he's hurting just a little.

    With his athletic ability after playing WR some hoped he'd be a slippery one back there but he clearly isn't. Hopefully he'll develop the mental prowess of a Brees, Brady, Manning to avoid sacks with something other than physical ability. Hell Joe Flacco is no Carl Lewis and last year only caused 2 sacks on 750+ drop backs, almost tops in the league.
     
  26. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    My take away from this is that he can get the ball out quickly and effectively. I like this a lot as it is one of the more important skills to have. Some combination of better line play and improving his pocket awareness and ability to avoid sacks is necessary if we are to make the most of Wallace and others when their routes require more time to develop.
     
  27. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    The offensive line isn't good enough and Daniel Thomas is a liability on the field. It's that simple.
     
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  28. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    For the record, great article. Very illuminating. My brain hurts just trying to keep up with the stats that you build an entire portrait out of. Great work, we're all better informed for reading it and all your thoughtful responses here.

    However, MY #1, 2, and 3 criticism would be that Tannehill doesn't display the peripheral vision that would give him great pocket awareness. It's the thing I think all fans and announcers see with their own two eyes that doesn't show up in the stats, unfortunately.*

    What the stats don't show is how little Tannehill sees the pressure that comes his way. It's the .3 seconds where he doesn't react at all to the incoming defender that fans see but stats don't record. It may be bad protection that leads to the pressure, but by often being blind to it, Tannehill takes sacks that more pocket aware QBs avoid. And worse, he is fumbling the ball (5 times on 14 sacks) despite not being blindsided. Regardless of how much time he has, Tannehill is taking a lot of sacks that he never even seems aware of. That is a real concern.

    *I'm usually not a person who quickly defers to "my gut" "my eyes" nor am I someone who would dismiss stats over subjective perception. Stats, or just the facts, never tell the whole story, but they usually tell the majority of it.
     
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  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    while I agree with you, there is still room for him to improve the bottom line if given more time..
     
  30. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's a great article and analysis CK. It's awesome having someone like you around here to help us all increase our football knowledge.

    That being said, I think its likely safe to assume that this is why we may see Mike Wallace not as involved in the passing game? There simply isnt time on any deeper route he may be running, however the quicker breaks and shorter routes for Hartline and Gibson are the quick shots for Tannehill to take in order to get rid of the ball. Is that maybe why we've seen limited opportunities for Wallace?
     
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  31. Electric Boogaloo

    Electric Boogaloo Inventor of the question mark

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    Another great piece, CK, and an excellent thread. Definitely a high level football dialogue.

    The only thing I'll toss in to the ring is to ask whether it is reasonable to criticize Tanny for a lack of pocket presence when it appears that most are simply lamenting his lack of escapability under pressure. I mean, is it reasonable to suggest he's hurting his team for lacking a specific trait, as opposed to not performing the QB function to the level that is expected of a starting QB? He can't exactly work in the film room on it or execute his coaching better, so should announcers or posters be criticizing him for it? It would certainly be nice if he had Big Ben's size or Wilson's hips, but that is not a lack of pocket presence, IMO. And if we're writing Santa Claus , why not give him Vick's wheels? Seems pretty obvious from the stats that he's not holding the ball too long and that the protection is giving him no time...which gets Tanny off the hook in my book and certainly doesn't warrant criticism.

    Now, if he's not reading the rush pre snap and adjusting, that's a different story, but that isn't pocket presence.
     
  32. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I think the problem is more that he isn't using his athleticism to it's fullest rather than that he is doing poorly. In other words...he is more athletic than the average QB so it is frustrating at times not seeing him -be- more athletic moving the pocket.
     
  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    [QUOTEOn if he was quicker to tuck and run last year, and if it’s a second thought now compared to last year) – “I think last year I was quick to escape. (I was) not hanging in there quite as long, not trusting the protection, trusting down field, trusting your eyes and escaping the pocket, moving out to my right most of the time, and then you cut the field in half. So then you really limit yourself that way. Something I worked on this offseason is really hanging in there and keeping my eyes downfield. “][/QUOTE]

    he's trying not to run and standing in the pocket as long as possible, this is where his ceiling becomes interesting, will he find that balance if given a normal amount of time...what a fascinating subject, obviously the dude is managing the game from the pocket and playing well, but this pace of sacks and fumbles cannot continue, something is gonna have to give..I can't wait to see where he goes with this, because we know he's conscious of it.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Toughest job in sports..qb'ing...geez..
     
  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's what has to click in his head, once he pats that thing and feels like he's gone over his timing a fraction of a second, IMMEDIATELY, must move your location.
     
  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think I'm guilty of this, and that is wanting to see the broken play turn into a big play, while our coaching staff and ryan is wanting to hang in there and go thru his reads.....,make plays breaking the pocket, or make the play from the pocket, that's where lines get gray in terms of which style over the course of a game, gives you the best chance to win.

    I guess when you break it down like that, I'd surely want to start with what Ryan's skillset is, then go from there, but when playoff football arrives, I hope our oline is giving him more time, and the experience and reps make Ryan more aware of the rush, and what to do when it's close to arrival.
     
  37. Drowning

    Drowning ONCE MORE UNTO THE BREACH

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    Gentlemen, this is the very reason why stats, IMO, can be useless. Ur eyes do you more justice. Please believe me. You re at home watching and u see good protection but all of the sudden ur screaming THROW THE BALL! Why? Cuz youve seen this movie b4. U have that clock in you sunday QB chair that screams LET IT GO! Please, guys, stop letting #s twist your necks. U dont need a number to tell u that the kid held the ball too long. He had at many times. But i promise u it will get better with age.

    U know what sucks about this awesome forum of ours? We all want to be mathematicians so badly. We want to break down the science so much that we forget that this is a brute's game. And you dont need a degree to see whats right in front of ur eyes.

    Texting from a phone. Sorry for the grammar
     
  38. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    The positive to take out of this article is that very few of those sacks actually came from a flat out domination of any particular linemen. The Martin one would have been too much for Jake Long even in his prime. You'd need a heck of an athlete to get back into position or a switch.

    If most of your sacks and the pressure your QB is under comes from miscues and miscommunication you can fix that.

    Against New Orleans this is by far the unit that has to improve the most. If the OL plays a better pass protection game Miami can beat New Orleans. Tannehill can challenge that New Orleans group in the short passing game.
     
  39. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Well-Known Member

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    Except that is blatantly false. Regardless of what you think you are seeing, he is not holding the ball too long. It's not that complicated to time how long he holds the ball and compare it to the other QB's. Ryan holds the ball the as long as most QB's if not shorter. Have you not watched a game and seen a QB having all day in the pocket, like over 5 or even 7 seconds? That's not what is going on here. If you're eyes tell you otherwise, then they are lying to you.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2
     
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  40. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    When you make decisions or form opinions based off subjective information, you bring the element of bias into view that clouds the overall picture. Plus, you also subject yourself to the announcer's bias. The media has a way of shaping people's opinion.

    I prefer to look at objective data. The statistics show exactly what they show and exactly what is happening on the field. I said after the Indianapolis game that most of the sacks on Ryan have been "Katy-bar-the-door" type sacks where we get jailbreak pressure. There is very little a quarterback can do in that situation.

    The coaches see this as well, as they are starting to respond with 7 man protection schemes, and right now, the backs and tight ends are doing a piss poor job of helping the linemen out.
     
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