1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Greg Cote: Dolphins’ flaw was evident from the start

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LBsFinest, Oct 11, 2013.

  1. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

    3,972
    2,062
    0
    Jul 24, 2012
    http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/10/08/v-fullstory/3676439/greg-cote-fins-flaw-was-evident.html

     
  2. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    13,969
    3,367
    113
    Jul 5, 2009
    As bad an article as you will find. Why did you post it?
     
  3. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    19,676
    31,337
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    AMERICA!

    It fits his MO.
     
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    13,969
    3,367
    113
    Jul 5, 2009
    Very true. I'm not surprised as soon as an article like this popped up, he would post it.

    He could at least pick an article that makes sense, though. Even if it is negative about Miami.
     
    ToddPhin likes this.
  5. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

    32,070
    22,827
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Concord, MA
    stupid. Vollmer wasn't going anywhere.
     
    Paul 13, ToddPhin and Stitches like this.
  6. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

    25,809
    39,060
    113
    Dec 21, 2007
    Berlin,Germany
    i'm surprised it took him so long, its 3 days old
     
    padre31 likes this.
  7. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

    21,176
    10,130
    113
    Jan 14, 2008
    Hornell, NY
    A member of the media wrote a negative Jeff Ireland article? That can only mean one thing. HE'S A HACK!!! AND A FRAUD!!! HE'S NEVER BEEN RIGHT ABOUT ANYTHING!!! smh A poster puts an article up that disagrees with the Jeff Ireland supporters and the first 4 responses are berating and insulting. If mods are curious as to why this board is becoming more and more a toxic atmosphere you only need to look at this behavior. Instead of attacking the poster, what about the article don't you agree with?
     
  8. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    7,684
    3,323
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Ohio
    I am generally a positive person and despise negative articles, mainly cause I believe it is solely to invoke a reaction and not based on belief.

    But, in this case has the Oline play warranted positive press or our seemingly lack of conviction towards the line validate Ireland?
     
  9. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    45,652
    19,304
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Windsor, ON. CANADA
    Sadly the article does fit in line with the OP's "agenda"... however nobody should really be able to dispute its validity after watching the performance of this OL. It's sad, but its true. Most people in the media, and many fans knew this OL wasn't going to cut it. I dont think anyone thought Clabo would be as bad as he's been, and I think we all expected Martin to improve, not become a pro bowler, but at least improve, and that really hasnt happened either. Why we sat by and did nothing with the OL is completely absurd. We tried, sure... but that doesn't cut it. If we were willing to spend as much money as we did on defense, and at WR, why not invest in the key to the whole offense, which is the OL.

    Some people are going to hate the article because it may go against their own agenda, or because its easy for Cote to come out with this now, after the fact... personally... I don't care one way or another about Jeff Ireland. He made some great moves this offseason, but failing to address this OL is an equally awful move as well. I think we need to be objective about this issue here. Its obvious the play on the field has been dismal from this group. Pass blocking, AND run blocking. If it were coaching, I think we'd at least see some signs of life from the unit after 5 games, maybe we will see that after the week off... However its looking more and more like these guys, aside from Richie, and Pouncey are just not good enough. Like it or not, that does fall on the guy who builds this roster, and acquires talent.

    Again, I couldnt care less one way or another at this point about Ireland, I'm on the fence right now. In the past, I was ready to see him go, but we've built a nice solid core here with him, we're heading in the right direction. Maybe that was the plan... hope the OL improves from last year, and plays well enough, and build the offense and defense this year into a solid unit, with new, young playmakers. Not a bad plan really... but that's banking on Martin and Jerry improving, and Clabo actually playing like he's capable. I guess you can look at it this way... if we address the OL this offseason, and keep as much of this team together as we can... there's nowhere to go but up?
     
    cuchulainn and MonstBlitz like this.
  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    -the "3 tackles in first 4 picks", do note he does not point out those tackles are not playing well
    -the "Hindering Tannehill" THill has a higher QBR then Brady and more yards

    We are 3-2 including road wins v the Browns and Colts, you'd think we are 1-4
     
  11. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

    21,755
    3,475
    113
    Jan 5, 2008
    Oviedo FL
    I think the bolded stuff isn't correct. Ireland did address the issue by picking up two guys in the FA market AND drafting one also. That's not sitting by and doing nothing. Clabo was a pro-bowl tackle before he got here. Now he's laying on his back most games catching some sunshine. You cant say Irelend has failed to address this OL. That's just not true.
     
    Colorado Dolfan and Fin D like this.
  12. PhinishLine

    PhinishLine Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    4,276
    2,893
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Maryland
    Like I said. We have a wartime media. It's nothing against them, I just don't think they have good experience writing when things are going well. Call it habit. It would be hard for them to write in Boston, unless you had some sort of skill to write about multiple topics from multiple angles ala Volin. Now that we are losing, I expect to see more articles like this and when we win....an I told you so article or two....then nothing until we lose again.
     
  13. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    8,215
    1,896
    113
    Mar 10, 2013
    Buckeye Land
    “A concerning trend,” in the words of left tackle Jonathan Martin, who is cerebral but, unfortunately, not particularly physical.
    Wow, you'd like to hear a little more emotion from a guy getting his QB killed. And why had Clabo fallen so far? It seems like he should at least be average.
     
  14. UCF FINatic

    UCF FINatic The Miami Dolphins select

    5,783
    1,931
    113
    Apr 17, 2008
    Saying the Dolphins' flaw was evident from the start is quite reactionary and takes advantage of the emotional state of Dolphins fans after two losses. We started the season 3-0, do we have some problems? Yes, but so does every team in the NFL.
     
    the 23rd, Rocky Raccoon and Paul 13 like this.
  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    No.

    The reason the board is getting toxic, is not because of the push against negativity, its the extreme negativity that's the problem.

    Examples of Negativity:
    - The oline has played horribly.
    - Tyson Clabo was a mistake made by Ireland.
    - I'm worried Wallace might be FA bust for us so far.

    All valid things based on observation of tape and stats. It invites discussion and is devoid of inflaming rhetoric.

    Examples of Extreme Negativity:
    - Ireland sucks!!!!
    - Ireland ignored ________ (insert any group)
    - We suck!

    Non valid things that are based on an agenda or misinformation. These things do not invite conversation and are nothing but emotional rhetoric.

    Rhetoric that is actually harmful, btw. When you consider the things that happened in the last offseason from the protests, to the false reports from all the media that piled on, to potentially losing out on players because we were a laughing stock and undeservedly so, this kind of silly hate can spiral out of control.

    People who rail against that sort of thing, like myself, are only doing so in an attempt to avoid the sheer lunacy that was last year.
     
    Pariah, the 23rd, JMHPhin and 7 others like this.
  16. Ducken

    Ducken Luxury Box Luxury Box

    10,018
    5,152
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Lower Delaware
    The way I see our Oline is we have a RT that is playing well below what was expected when we signed him. A RG that was not really expected to do well. Probably the best Center in the NFL. A LG playing well and doing as expected, and finally a young LT that did not play very well last year but was pretty well thought of when drafted and IMHO still showing he needs a good amount seasoning but I still have hopes for. So you add all that up and you end up with a pretty bad Oline. If we had just average play at both Tackle positions we would be talking about only needing a RG in next years draft, but as it stands do we wait for Martin to develop or do we give up and start over next year needing both tackles and a RG and resign Richie. Unless Martin turns it up several notches from here on out there will be some really tough decisions to be made next off season and a probably a Oline heavy draft.
     
    Finrunner likes this.
  17. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

    36,936
    10,264
    0
    Mar 25, 2008
    Thee...Ohio State University
    Oh our OL is playing bad?? Had no idea.
     
    unifiedtheory likes this.
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    To some extent LB has earned the skepticism whenever he starts a thread that graces the subject. But in this case he merely cited an article freshly written by a nationally famous local columnist. So I agree with Monst to the extent of being disappointed that we can't get off this subject of attacking LB and addressing the article.
     
    MonstBlitz likes this.
  19. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

    52,652
    25,565
    113
    Nov 13, 2009
    [​IMG]
     
    Paul 13 and gilv13 like this.
  20. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Nice to see that the Dolphins only have one flaw. That is a pretty big feat in today's NFL. I'm not sure how that is taken as a negative.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4
     
  21. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

    6,066
    3,436
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    NY
    I agree. And I sense a lot of "the truth hurts" responses.
     
    NolesNPhinsFan likes this.
  22. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    1st, Martin has certainly improved, and he's hardly the abomination Cote makes him out to be IMO. Yes, he's a work in progress, but so is our quarterback. It isn't exactly a surprise that a 2nd year player is still a work in progress.
    2nd, Cote says Clabo hasn't been as bad as Martin (I disagree, he's been worse). Also, if no one expected Clabo to be as bad as he's been, why should have we thought that Ireland definitely should have done more? Or rather, why should we have thought it wasn't enough if the expectation (for both Clabo and Martin) was what you wrote above? (It is certainly a reasonable expectation, without hindsight, that the line as it stood in week 5 should have been at least near average in both pass and run blocking)
    3rd, I don't know how you can say we did nothing. We brought in two veterans Clabo and Louis, re-signed Nate Garner, and used a relatively high pick on Dallas Thomas (also, it was a reasonable expectation IMO that Jerry would be better than last year; and I think his in camp injury has hurt his performance so far since he missed the reps early on). I totally get criticizing the acquisitions since they haven't worked out yet and even saying we should have done more, but I believe it is disingenuous to say we did nothing.


    The only thing dismal about the running game has been the number of attempts per game IMO (we're 30th). We're tied for 19th in rushing average, which is hardly dismal. And we've been able to rush for 5 TDs on the season, which is tied for 6th (and none of the rushing TDs have been herculean efforts by the RBs that happened despite the OL). Yes, we haven't been as good on 3rd and short as I'd like, but that combined with our performance in other areas overall still doesn't equate to dismal.

    If Ireland goes after this year, that's fine with me. If he doesn't (as it stands right now), I won't be too upset either.
     
    cuchulainn and Paul 13 like this.
  23. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

    12,162
    5,057
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Honestly 95% of the articles posted by our columnist/beat writers are garbage, even the homer ones. The only articles I'm interested in are stat/fact based. This is just another "the Dolphins blew it again" article which is equally as bad as the "the Dolphins are for real" articles we had weeks ago. Put in some actual statistical data or some actual news instead of speculation or your own made up rumors and then I'll read your article.
     
    Paul 13 and Stitches like this.
  24. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

    13,057
    8,875
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Hamilton, Ontario Canada
    Some? I think you can automatically assume the moment LB posts a link to any article it's going to be negative...........about as much as you can assume the sky is blue.
     
    Claymore95 and Rocky Raccoon like this.
  25. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

    7,191
    3,940
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Thomasville, GA
    Okay... I have to ask... Who in the hell is that!?!?!?!? CBS-Man!!! with the eye on his chest!
     
  26. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    8,565
    3,821
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Powell, WY
    I agree that Ireland blew it wrt our offensive line. I said so at the time and I've said so the whole year. It's been obvious since training camp and it's brutally obvious now. I also agree that Ireland deserves to be fired. He deserved it last year.
    That said, it's still possible this O line could gel to some extent as the season progresses. I haven't given up hope that they'll improve.
    I just think it's going to happen too late to get us into the playoffs.
     
  27. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

    52,652
    25,565
    113
    Nov 13, 2009
    Cote's alter-ego... "Capt. Hindsight"
     
    cuchulainn, maynard and Paul 13 like this.
  28. keypusher

    keypusher Well-Known Member

    1,351
    448
    83
    Nov 29, 2007
    Did any of the people flaming Cote read the article?

    He spends more than half of it saying that fans were too giddy about the Dolphins when they started 3-0 and they're too down on them now that they've lost two in a row. Exactly what a lot of posters here say.

    He then points out that Tannehill is on a pace to set a record for being sacked. Is he wrong?

    He also points out that the team is on a pace to set a franchise record for fewest rushing yards, that despite the Marino years, the expansion years, and the fact that seasons used to be two games shorter. Pretty stunning.

    Our O line sucks. GMs, like everybody else, are measured not just by the fact that they "did something" but that what they did worked or didn't work. Matt Millen was always "doing something" when he was running the Lions. (No, I'm not saying Ireland is as bad as Millen.) Ireland made various moves w/r/t our offensive line. They aren't working out, to put it mildly. There is nothing wrong with writing a column about that.
     
  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

    42,442
    24,982
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    No, the CONTENT of the article is what makes it ridiculous, and the fact a poster here would disregard the quality of the content just b/c the article smears Ireland is equally as ridiculous. Cote might of well have said Miami failed to force the Cowboys to trade Tyron Smith, because that's equally as slanderous as saying Miami missed out on Eugene Monroe despite not being made available to anyone but Baltimore, or Vollmer despite him CHOOSING to remain with the team that drafted him, or Levi Brown who isn't an answer at tackle, or Lane Johnson who is experiencing some rookie woes. Ireland made an attempt to address right tackle this year with a player who has a past of being reliable enough to do the job, so the "flaw" as Cote calls it was NOT evident from the start.
     
    cuchulainn, xphinfanx and Fin D like this.
  30. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    IMO the flaw is in the assumption that throwing money or high picks at the problem was the solution. It was obvious that the OL needed attention. You had players brought in for a vastly different scheme that needed to be changed out for better fits. That was going to be a massive overhaul. Really the only sure fit was Pouncey. IMO Cogs was a decent fit, but I'm not sure whether the team agreed. Martin was brought in after the scheme change and was the right type. I don't agree with those assessments that questioned his feet. I think he has the feet to be a LT but lacked strength and anchoring/punch technique. I don't believe that it is wise to spend big money or resources at on the OL. Great OLs become so largely as good players that fit the system learn to play together not from throwing as many great talents or names at it. The critics seemed to believe that re-signing or signing poor fits (but big name) guys like Long or Mckinnie would have made things better. Or that moving up to draft the last of the big three Ts in the draft would have been the answer. They ignore that those players have also struggled. Had those critic's strategies been pursued we would have as bad of an OL but be worse elsewhere in terms of talent and or salary cap. It made far more sense to pursue lower risk options. The odds of success are about the same, but the cost of failure is less. That doesn't mean that I agreed with every move the team made, but I prefer those moves to what the critics were proposing.
     
    cuchulainn, Ducken, ToddPhin and 2 others like this.
  31. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    75,120
    37,638
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    Article is complete garbage. By no means am I Irelands biggest defender. I barely even like him but he did a pretty good job this offseason addressing holes. You could argue that he could have spent the LB money better but we still got younger and faster for close to the same money Dansby and Burnett were making for the same or maybe slightly better level of play. That was something we had a need for. As for the OL and the article...
    - Cote cites letting Jake Long go when we made a competitive offer. Still Long has been as bad as Martin having been benched, banged up, and playing every bit as mediocre.
    - KC wanted a 2 for Albert. Albert simply isnt worth a 2. Hes better then what we have but hes had injuries to deal with and was going to get paid (either by big contract or Franchise tag). We can still get him without giving up a pick this year if he hits FA.
    - He cites our trade up for Dion Jordan and said we were in a trade up mood. Im assuming he means we should have moved up for Lane Johnson instead since Joeckel and Fisher were already gone. Has he seen Lane Johnson play? Lane Johnson makes Jon Martin look pretty darn good.
    - He also leaves out that Jon Martin was a high 2nd round pick. Is it so ridiculous that a top 45 pick could become a good player? No. You dont give up on top 45 picks after 1 season generally speaking. Those guys get a longer leash from GM's. Right or wrong its the way it is.
    - He cites the Clabo signing but 2 of the last 3 years Clabo graded out well by PFF. We clearly thought we were getting an upgrade.
    - We signed a pretty decent guard in Lance Louis. Louis simply couldnt get ready to play.

    All in all Id say the right side of the OL needs more work then the left side. Maybe its time to see if Dallas Thomas can provide some answers? He cant be worse then Jerry can he? The only real argument I see is that you could say he could have taken the money we spent on LB's and signed a Gosder Cherilus but then TE's would still be eating us alive so its a catch 22.
     
    Claymore95, cuchulainn, SICK and 5 others like this.
  32. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

    21,176
    10,130
    113
    Jan 14, 2008
    Hornell, NY
    You make it seem so much less toxic than the behavior actually is. This is a Dolphins forum. A Dolphin fan should be able to come here and discuss the positive and negative aspects of the team. But when anyone discusses the negative aspects of the team they are insulted by the very vocal eternal optimists of this board. And it's really getting to the point where it's just not a friendly environment anymore. It's become the opposite polar extreme of FinHeaven, but every bit as toxic.
     
    PhillyPhin and NolesNPhinsFan like this.
  33. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    The funny thing is that Martin is a higher rated player on PFF this year than Lane Johnson, Luke Joeckel, Eric Fisher and Eric Winston. It’s also hard to blame Ireland for Tyson Clabo dropping from a top 15 guy for 4 years to (61st) this year. As hard as it is for me to write; this looks more like a scheme issue than the personnel one.
     
    Claymore95, SICK, Ducken and 3 others like this.
  34. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

    85,620
    51,681
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    I must have missed something. How is it insulting to ask why a poster has made a thread or quoted an article? Having said that, it's not ideal for anyone to question someones motives when quoting an article in starting a thread.
     
  35. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

    10,823
    2,214
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    We are very aware you don't like Ireland either.
     
  36. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    The hyper negativity is far more extreme than any eternal optimism. It's not like people were predicting 16-0. The people that were accused of unreasonable optimism were the ones predicting 9-7. The hyper negative group was the ones predicting 0-5 or 1-4 starts. And as is almost always the case, the hyper negative group were the ones proven wrong. The toxicity is what is produced by those extremes. They're shouted down by people seeking reasonable conversation. If you feel that people are constantly shouting you down then you're probably making unreasonable arguments.
     
    Pariah, SICK and ToddPhin like this.
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,648
    67,540
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Wrong, blitz, folks are too smart on this board to let that happen..stop being hyperbolic..

    The article is fine to post, the content is surface level..however it fits what the OP wants done and that's fine, he's got something he can hold his hat on, however, one unit does not make a whole team, some simple perspective would be cool by both parties.

    I'm gonna wait til the season is half over, for example, we beat buffalo, saints beat pats, were in first place, and folks like cote and whoever look silly

    The Truth in the article is about this fanbase, and how much as a whole they have no perspective..

    That's what's toxic...see sunlife stands come next Sunday.
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,648
    67,540
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I'd really like to see a prediction thread this offseason to see where certain folks had us, where we are at this point, and what they have to say about it..

    Pretty sure certain folks dihnt have us at 3 and 2..be interested as to what they have to say..
     
  39. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    11,681
    10,413
    113
    May 7, 2008
    New Orleans
    Let's look at this from Ten Thousand Feet: Ireland has had 4 years to build an offensive line. He has failed to build an offensive line that is merely below average. His offensive line is terrible.

    Now, we can argue till we're blue in the face about how great Clabo was in 2012 or how not-great Long is in 2013. We can discuss the rookie seasons of Luke Joekel and Lane Johnson and their PFF ratings. That's just getting lost amongst the trees. The o-line is pretty damn bad. The buck stops with Ireland. I don't see how it isn't his fault.
     
    NolesNPhinsFan likes this.
  40. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    32,924
    41,461
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Let's take a look at the points Cote makes in the OT:

    There were free agent options not pursued, such as Patriots tackle Sebastian Vollmer.
    Everyone knew Vollmer was probably going to stay in NE. Do we know that the Dolphins didn't make a run at him?

    There were draft options passed by, in a year when three of the first four picks were tackles and Miami was in a trade-up mood.

    Like Boik said, even with our "trade-up mood" they got to 3, where only Johnson was left. As it has also been mentioned, Johnson has not been very good this year.

    There also have been recent trade options. Just last week two starting left tackles changed teams — Baltimore getting the Jags’ Eugene Monroe and Pittsburgh the Cardinals’ Levi Brown, both for modest draft picks. Each would have immediately helped Miami. I can't comment on Eugene Monroe. I don't know much about him other than that he was an early pick. Levi Brown is not a good player though. Anyone suggesting that adding a player like that in the middle of the season as some kind of answer is simply grasping at straws, and Cote using the word "immediately" shows he really has no clue what he's talking about as a lineman coming from another system is going to take time to learn the new one and gel with his teammates.

    I do think the front office made a mistake not making the line a bigger priority in the offseason, but no one saw Clabo being this bad coming, and the job they did in improving the rest of the team should be commended.
     
    Pariah, Boik14, Paul 13 and 2 others like this.

Share This Page