... The Bears OL. Both teams had to have a major overhaul. I found this comparison fascinating however: The Bears shored up their O-line in one year with Four new O-linemen. 1. They signed Matt Slauson to a one year deal - AFTER Ireland signed Lance Louis away from the Bears! Louis is out of football and Slauson is starting at LG. 2. Their big free agent signing was Jermon Bushrod from the Saints. He signed a deal not too dissimilar from our two ILBs. Great cap number this year ($3 million). Starting LT (far better than Martin). The Dolphins could have gone after and afforded him. 3. They drafted Kyle Long in round 1 (#20). Could not have gotten him unless we went without the trade up for Jordan (but might have gotten other picks in a trade down). However, I think the Jordan move was a pretty good one (though Long should be a 10 year starter at OG). But, let's just say we keep Incognito in placed of a Long. 4. They drafted Jordan Mills with the 30th pick in the 5th round. He's a been a solid starter all six games at RT. We fooled around with a lightweight, tweener, project in Dallas Thomas in round 3. There's just no two ways about it. This comparison hurts! 5. They have a solid starting Center in Garza (but certainly not better than ours). Essentially we could have added 3 new players and had a massively improved OL. Stat wise: Jay Cutler 217 pass attempts - 9 sacks. Tannehill - 182 pass attempts - 24 sacks. But, even more interesting. Through 5 games - PF Outsiders statistically ranked O-lines for pass protection: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol Before the game against the Giants, the Bears OL was ranked #7 in the league. But, it may well go up as they gave up zero sacks against the Giants. The Dolphins ranking? #32. No doubt, as has been discussed ad infinitum, Tannehill bears some blame for some of the sacks but certainly not the brunt. And, the sacks don't even take into account the number of times he had to get rid of the ball early as CK has chronicled so well. Have to admit, given the disastrous state of the OL coming out of 2012, it is a shame Ireland did such a poor job shoring it up. I like a number of the other moves he made this year - but the guy just does not know how to build an O-line. And, that could ultimately be the downfall of this team. Even mediocre OL play and we're 4-1 going into the bye with great chances to take over the division. Those opportunities are still there but only with some sort of miraculous turnaround by the OL. Ireland's stubbornness in holding onto John Jerry and on being "cute" with the Thomas pick, then thinking he can just sign some washed up guys ... He's got to reconsider every aspect of his scouting of linemen and realize he's failed. And, it's also possible he'll have shattered the confidence of the QB on whose shoulders they've put the whole future of the franchise. Hopefully not, but this is a big bomb for Ireland on the OL. Of course, it goes without saying, hindsight is 20/20. But the reality is, when you have opportunities that other teams are taking advantage of and you are "missing" - it's still out there and apparent.
I would say the Dolphins O Line most compares to Ted Ginn, John Beck, and Jeff Ireland because apparently there is no such thing as too many threads about it.
I may be in the minority, but I think the OP raises a valid point in bringing up Chicago as a comparison. Whether or not there are too many threads about the OL is another matter IMO.
The Bears also have the better #1 WR in Marshall over Wallace. To me, Grimes is the only player Ireland signed in free agency this past off season that is worth the money he is being paid. Ireland overpaid for all the other free agents, especially Wallace, Ellerbe, and Wheeler. I think Ireland realized after six years he has no clue how to build an offensive line, so he didn't even try. Perhaps the Falcons cutting Clabo and no other team showing much interest in signing him should have been a clue that maybe he just wasn't any good anymore. Of course this is the same GM that signed Colombo a couple of years ago, so the Clabo signing and his ultimate bad play should be no surprise to any of us. Also after attending the Senior Bowl a few years ago, Ireland went gaga over John Jerry. Instead of taking Jimmy Graham in that draft, Ireland opted to take Jerry and instead of picking a future all pro TE that played right here in Miami during college, we now have a RG who can't get out of his own way. Talent evaluation is certainly not Ireland's strength and that is the main responsibility of a teams GM. I know there are people on here that want to see how the season plays out before judging the job Ireland has done. I've had six years of watching Ireland and I judge him to be not fit for the job. My biggest hope is this is the last season we will have to suffer with him as the GM of this team.
Our offensive line troubles kind of remind me of where Chicago's was a year or two ago (2011) after they had gotten Cutler, but Cutler was getting killed. Their line didn't match up too well with what Mike Martz wanted to do, and folks were yelling about Cutler along with the line and coaches. Now, Mike Tice was switching linemen in and out, and that's different from what our staff is doing, however, the results are similar. Like our team, their run/pass ratio was way out of whack. Ironically, Tyler Clutts was on that team. Here was an article at the time just for example: http://www.nbcsports.com/football/nfl/time-fix-bears-cutler-gets-killed#page=2. Here's one other: http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-sports-guru/2011/09/cutler-well-aware-bears-ol-martz-could-get-him-killed-this-season/. In that second article, I enjoyed this nugget that sounds something like what I've read on this board before: We're in a little bit of a different situation in the way we run our offense, the fact that the coaches are trying to keep the line together for cohesion purposes, and also Tannehill's familiarity with the offense compared to Cutler in Martz's offense. But the pressure and sack results seem similar with Tannehill on the ground a lot. Really hope we can get it together this year.
There's a heck of a lot of artistic licence in these two sentences. We picked Jerry over Graham, no argument there and missing that pick is fair to be criticized. You don't need all the flair in there to make the criticism more valid though. Graham was hardly a slam dunk future all-pro TE, and just because we took Jerry doesn't mean anyone went gaga over him. Going gaga over a player is what we did with Dion Jordan, evidenced by the move we made to get him, and the answers we gave about why we went after him. Heck, if Jimmy Graham was such a clear-cut choice, the saints themselves would've taken him in the 2nd round over OT Charles Brown who's arguably been worse in his career than Jerry.
yea it's pretty simple, the new GM came in and replaced 4 starters on the OL. hopefully we get a new GM too and then he'll probably do the same thing.
The report here in Miami after the Senior Bowl that year, (the Dolphins coaching staff were the coaches of one of the teams in the Senior Bowl), was that the staff was so impressed with Jerry during that week that they wanted to draft him in the early rounds of the draft. Also both Ireland and Parcells were quoted at the time as saying that they were also impressed with Graham and that they thought he would be a very good player in the NFL. I'll admit that no one expected him to become the player he is today because obviously he would have been a 1st round draft pick if every team knew in advance how great he would be in the NFL. I guess I could accept passing on Graham if Jerry had turned out to be a quality NFL player. He has been a mediocre to bad OG since being drafted and the fact they drafted him and and not Graham just makes it that much harder to justify the Jerry pick. Last year another player was overlooked who played right here in Miami. That was T Y Hilton. He was by far the best player on his FIU team and probably the best offensive player in the entire state of Florida during his senior season in 2011. The Dolphins were in dire needs of receivers going into the 2012 draft, but instead of drafting him in the second round, Ireland drafted a very mediocre Martin with his second round pick. This left Hilton on the board and he was picked by the Colts with their first third round pick. He has been a standout WR for the Colts since he was drafted and if Ireland had been smart enough to draft him, he wouldn't have had to spend all the money to sign Wallace in the off season. Instead he opted to draft another very mediocre player instead in the second round. Great GM's are great GM's because they see talent and make good decisions far more times than they make the wrong decision on players. Ireland has made some good decisions in his six years. He just hasn't made enough of them and he has made far too many bad decisions to remain the GM of this organization, in my opinion.
I didn't mean to make an attack on the OP. It was supposed to be a lighthearted joke about the amount of threads dealing with the OL.
I'd like to think that with as much experience as Joe Philbin and Mike Sherman have as coaches in the NFL - Kevin Coyle as well - that they really do a good job of self-scouting during this bye week. I hope that's the case and they come to some conclusions that have been written about here since the Baltimore game ended. Those being to make a more concerted effort to run the ball, using backs and TEs more often in pass-pro, and and to give certain players - chiefly Lamar Miller and Dion Jordan - more carries and more snaps respectively. I think you could also at least look at taking some snaps away from guys like John Jerry, Olivier Vernon, and maybe Nolan Carroll and adding in Danny Watkins, Dion Jordan, and Jamar Taylor. I'd like to think all those things, but with the finicky way they've coached the first give games of the season I'm not so sure those will happen.
I hear what your saying but I wouldn't put to much weight in Pro Football Outsiders and their evaluation because as you said, "PF Outsiders statistically ranked O-lines for pass protection" when all they do is rate offensive lines by "adjusted sack rate" they go by total sacks. No consideration is given to hits/hurries allowed. No consideration is given to sacks allowed by running backs, tight ends.
Sorry but this is off-base. Typical hyperbolic over-reaction. I'm fine with Ireland staying on as GM. He just has to change what he's done with the OL. He's also got to learn to let go of draft choices. After, the 2nd year in, he can't think, "I drafted this guy in the 3rd or 2nd round, he's a good football player." He has to look at that player as if he were a UDFA. And if he did that, some of the non-producers on the team would be gone. He also simply needs to stop thinking he's got it together when finding and choosing O-linemen. He's been pitiful except for Incognito and drafting Pouncey in round 1. But, the other moves have been simply bad.
your thread validates (indirectly) everything I have suspected all along, could it all be about coaching? i.e. within a day after being named head coach, Trestman hired Aaron Kromer as offensive coordinator and offensive line coach. http://espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/stor...tman-former-cfl-coach-year-montreal-alouettes
Sorry, wasn't trying to knock our post, that's just my opinion. I think the pass protection issue is real. But I also think because it's soooo obviously a problem that it's been blown entirely out of proportion relative to it's impact on our ability to win games. I'd rank the lack of a run game, the injury bug and strength of schedule all as more of a factor than pass pro. JMO.
Speaking of Ted Ginn he has more Touchdowns than Mike Wallace this season... Wallace might be added to that your fairly soon if that keeps up.
The Bears didn't bring in a new GM. They fired Lovie Smith and kept Phil Emery as the GM, kinda like Miami did with Ireland. I think the example you're looking for is Carolina. They fired the GM mid season and are sitting pretty with 1 win so far.
The Panthers are better than the Miami Dolphins at Almost every position. Do you really want to go through the roster? Seriously, the best front 7 in the league, the best rushing attack, c'mon it's not even close.
I especially love how they scored 7 points or less in 2 of their 4 games..... and most productive yardage receiver is Ted Ginn.
The Panthers are great. That's why they are 1-3 right now. Wouldn't be surprised if they lose to the Vikings Sunday. However we will see which team is better on November 24th.
Don't get me wrong I think we'll win because of the ebb and flow of the season, the Panthers are in a downward spiral cause the team isn't playing to their potential if you look on paper, you can't argue their players aren't better than Miami. It pains me to say that because Phinsational is a closet Panthers fan so I will be the first one to RAG ON HIM all day when the fins beat the panthers. What happened to your boy Jake Delhomme in the Superbowl? haha. You should have stood a Panthers fan, they been to more Superbowls in the last 25 years than the dolphins. November 24th, Phinsational and his closet co-horts of panthers fans are going down, down down. Like that Bruce Springsteen song, going DOWN DOWN DOWN. Rocky Racoon knows about the Boss. Going Down Down Down.
I agree the lack of a run game is big. But, my point wasn't just intended to focus on pass pro (though I do think that is very significant factor in the offense not producing as effectively as it could) - rather, the OL as a whole is having problems. And, I think the OL has a lot to do with the poor run game. Not entirely but a significant part. I think Thomas is pretty much a waste. But, quite often the holes are just not there. Miller has breakaway potential, obviously, but doesn't seem to have the confidence / ability to get away when the line breaks down.
Of course you also have the example of the Chiefs and the Jets who fired their GM's. The Chiefs are one of the few remaining undefeated teams in the NFL right now and the new GM of the Jets has done as good a job rebuilding the Jets in one off season as Ireland has done in six seasons as the Dolphins GM.
A few thoughts come to mind: - J'Marcus Webb had to go, and they finally got rid of him. He was physically imposing but a lousy player, lousy in pass pro and a threat to the health of Jay Cutler, no doubt a source of anger and frustration. And away Baby Huey went... - Bushrod was a good pickup. - Kyle Long is much better than I though he would be. I heard stories about past drug use and a weak lower body, I was not a fan of that high draft pick. But from what I 've seen this year Long is a force in run blocking and a pretty darned good pass blocker- dude is a keeper. A big, physically imposing OG who can move people off the line and can pass pro with nimble feet and very good athleticism- Jonathan Martin should look half as good in pass pro as the former college pitcher- Martin looks uncoordinated in comparison. - I really liked Gabe Carimi coming out of Wisconsin- the Bears dumped him for maybe a 6th rd pick to Tampa Bay, and given how awful we are at RT I would have made that trade to give Carimi a shot at RT with us. I thought that he could play LT in the NFL and certainly play RT- not sure what happened but for a 6th I would have given it a shot and given Carimi time to heal up his knee and make a fresh start. I would have rather taken a chance on him rather than Lance Louis, granted Louis didn't cost us a draft pick.
Did we miss the fact that Chicago's OL that starts 2 rookies has given up 82 pressures to Miami's 67? Also, Jermon Bushrod a lot better than Jonathan Martin? Bushrod has given up 22 pressures. Martin 16.
So what makes them better this year? I've seen a couple of Bears games and they look totally different on offense, Cutler was running for his life and getting hit left and right the last few years, this year they look a lot better. Is it the scheme or is Cutler getting better? Coaching? If its not the talent on the oline its something because they look a lot better to me when I watch them.
Does anyone know if the Bears run a zone blocking scheme..or man? Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
IMO it's all of it, Cutler is more comfortable, he knows when to run, when to pass and when to throw it away. He's got a command of the offense... not to say Tannehill doesn't though. Big difference between us and them is their actually running the football at 4.5 yards per rush. We're further down the list at 3.7. We're running the ball 34% of the time, which means we pass it 66%. They are more balanced at 40/60 run pass mix. That 6% makes a big difference.
Especially when it's an effective 6%. 40 percent run when you are moving the ball is big. It would really help Tanny out if we had that.
No, we didn't but those numbers are way too subjective. But, "we" must have missed that RT is also among the fastest to release the football (largely due to pressure). "We" must have missed this: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol PASS PROTECTION Rank Team Rank Sacks Adjusted Sack Rate 7 CHI 7 9 5.6% 32 MIA 32 24 11.2% Through week 5. And, these stats will adjust upward for Chicago as they had a zero sack night on Thursday.
Sacks and sack rate is a very poor metric to use to evaluate offensive linemen. What's more impressive? The fact that the KC Chiefs sacked Terrell Pryor 11 times, or the fact that they pressured him on 55% of his drops? Offensive lines league wide right now are bad. There is going to be some overvaluation of offensive linemen in this draft.
