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ESPNs top 5 young QBs

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Nappy Roots, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. scotty_irnbru

    scotty_irnbru Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this too. Way too early to be making calls like this. Being a team game makes it quite difficult to rate the QB position. Too many variables I'd say.
     
  2. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    I dunno. 5 RG3's would be pretty tempting. You could run the read option all day and not be afraid if he got hurt... b/c if he did, you'd just sub in the next one, lol.
     
  3. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    There is also a difference between a great QB... and a first ballot HoFer and one of the greatest of all time. One of THOSE practically guarantees you playoffs every year. But that isn't in the relm of what were taking about. That's another level...
     
  4. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe it's ever too early to start ranking players. It's just too early to reach definitive conclusions. I would rank Luck first and RT second as prospects. Those two just have the fewest limitations. I have Wilson third, phenomenal instincts, but not as great of a passer as the top two. CKap is a favorite of mine but he still has the same questions about his ability to read defenses that I cited when he was at UNR. Newton is still that dynamic player with the inconsistent accuracy. RG3 is still that enigma. He has a sky high ceiling, but I don't trust him avoid the hits that will keep him healthy and w/o his running threat he isn't as great from the pocket (He has the skills to be, but just isn't).
     
  5. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Tannehill needs a primetime pressure statement game, imo, to jump Wilson.

    Wilson on the road against the NFC's top seed in the playoffs went: 24/36 for 385 2TDs/1int, 70yds rushing and another TD. He got on an unstoppable roll you rarely see, especially with rookies, then the defense coughed it up in like 30 seconds. Tannehill hasn't put the team on his back quite like that yet, nevermind it being in a hostile postseason elimination environment.
     
  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Personally don't know how anyone could rank Ryan Tannehill above Russell Wilson but that's just me I guess.

    Young QB Ranking thru WK06-2013
    01. Russell Wilson (tie)
    01. Andrew Luck (tie)
    03. Cam Newton
    04. Ryan Tannehill
    05. Robert Griffin, III
    06. Colin Kaepernick
    07. Andy Dalton
    08. Jake Locker
    09. Nick Foles
    10. Brandon Weeden
    11. Christian Ponder
    12. E.J. Manuel
    13. Terrelle Pryor
    14. Geno Smith
    15. Mike Glennon
    16. Blaine Gabbert

    Still in Waiting
    QB Matt Barkley
    QB Brock Osweiler
    QB Kirk Cousins
    QB Ryan Mallett
    QB T.J. Yates
     
  7. ElNino

    ElNino Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree - give me a choice of the six (including Tannehill) i'd take Luck then Tannehill, and even that is not quite a slam dunk for Luck after last night - really Luck's receivers let him down last night, but not like Tannehill has not had the same let downs from his guys.
     
  8. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think luck is and there wouldn't be to much debate on that. I don't see the others as not debatable. I don't find fault in opinions who believe they are but it isn't like it is clear cut IMO
     
  9. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree w CK tho I would have Wilson ahead but I would have Tanne above Newton. Just my opinion as Came skills are off the chart, he had a lot of inconsistency tho imo
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Personally I think Cam Newton's child-like attitude just draws a lot of sensitivity to any issues he has, sort of like when you burn yourself any time you expose the skin to anything even remotely warm it feels scorching.

    There's been inconsistency in Cam Newton's career. That much is certain.

    More than his own defense though? Not so sure about that. His defense allowed an average of 28.2 points per game in the 22 losses he's suffered. They've allowed 16.0 points per game in the 15 wins Newton has directed.

    Meanwhile the offense has scored 23.6 points per game under Newton's direction, and he's either set or threatened a number of records for a young quarterback...with a cavalcade of injuries surrounding him, an offensive line that isn't very special, and basically one wide receiver.

    If that were Ryan Tannehill, you know darn well everyone here would be raising victory flags on his career and getting nasty with anyone who dared suggest he's not awesome with awesome sauce.

    As far as inconsistency goes...I'm not sure you get more inconsistent than Tannehill's been and that's being 100% honest. Tannehill has played in about 20 games and he's been responsible for 3+ turnovers in a single game in 20% of them. On the other hand, he's had a 0 turnover day in 35% of his games.

    That's very up-and-down, and a little too much "down" relative to the "up".

    For Cam Newton, he's played in 37 games and had 13.5% of them end up a 3+ turnover day. On the other hand 40.5% of them ended up a 0 turnover day. So for him, when 54% of his games turn out to feature either 3+ turnovers or 0 turnovers, that's because the bulk of them involve 0 turnovers.
     
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  11. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    This is fair. I would think/hope Tannehill would leapfrog Newton by season's end though.
     
  12. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    May wanna drop old man Weeden below Pryor and Geno even I think. That guy has a legitimate Wr, TE and a very solid defense. Yet they only win games he doesn't start.
     
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  13. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I won't argue you don't have a solid basis to have Cam above RT. For me, I have maturity concerns with Cam. I will say that I see less this year so far and if mentally he has matured then his talent is off the charts. I just want to see it a whole season. And Cam is in his third year and Ryan in his second. If I compare RT at this point to where Cam was this time last year, I take RT. But that is me and just majorily on my perception without massive study.
     
  14. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    !!WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH LBsFINEST?!! RELEASE HIM, DEMON, RELEASE HIM!!

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Personally not sure he ever will.

    I think Cam Newton is still a guy who people want to hate. But the guy gets results.

    He averages 288 total yards, 1.97 TDs and 1.08 TOs per game. He's directing an offense that scores 23.6 points per game. Most people want to send up these vague "maturity" flags that are supposedly losing the Panthers games but when you ask them to give an example they'll usually say turnovers. Except as I just said, he's significantly less prone to 3+ turnover games than Ryan Tannehill and he averages 1.08 turnovers per game.

    Dan Marino averaged 254 yards, 1.77 touchdowns and 1.22 turnovers per game in his career. Cam Newton is bettering that in every category. But, you know, he does the jet plane dance after a first down or a touchdown and people are like "Oh! He's losing them games!"
     
  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think he even has the right maturity flag. He takes losses too hard.

    I don't remember reading that he is partying too much or is a jerk. Just looks too sad when he makes a mistake or his team loses.
     
  17. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Including the lingerie ref win.
    It's bound to happen but you can't even compare the numbers from QB's from the past to the present. Between the advantages the WR's have now over DB's (I mean the rules) and the patty cake rules for treatment of QB's it's no comparison. Go back a few years and QB's could get crushed and that was the way the game was played. Sure they can get hit today but they just don't have the same fear of players like the "old days."
     
  18. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I dont care what anyone says...

    I like Luck alot, but I wouldnt trade Tannehill for him. And..I think the record and stats will prove that out over time.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I get that but Andrew Luck averages 279 yards, 1.68 touchdowns and 1.23 turnovers per game, and everyone licks his nipples.

    Newton's stats don't just look good versus historical quarterbacks.

    Tom Brady has averaged 1.95 touchdowns and 0.89 turnovers per game. Peyton Manning has averaged 2.07 touchdowns and 1.02 turnovers per game.

    Cam Newton isn't really very far off those numbers (1.97 touchdowns, 1.08 turnovers). He just looks and acts a little different, and so he gets pushback.
     
  20. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    Not disagreeing with your points on Newton - but I'm not sure we can compare QBs over eras anymore. Marino's 254 yds per game would put him 16th in the league today - and his 86 QB rating would put him in line with Tannehill and Pryor.
     
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  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    hellooooooo!!!!
     
  22. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Cam strikes me as a good front-runner, but someone who doesn't excel in close games. Hence people doubting his leadership/intangibles. Since last season, Carolina is 1-9 in games decided by 7 or fewer points. If you include his rookie season, they're 2-14 in games decided by 7 or fewer.
     
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  23. dullfandan

    dullfandan Active Member

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    I live in Charlotte and they are calling cam a bust... I think if he had proper coaching he would be better... Mike Shula is terrible and got the oc job by default and gettleman will be showing Rivera and Shula the door at seasons end, and he's not sold on cam either...
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He deserves what he gets in the dept of hate, and it looks to me like his immature personality doesn't bode well in leading grown men..just like I thought it wouldn't coming out of college..

    So far...maybe the boy can grow up one day.
     
  25. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    What exactly has he done that you think hurts his team, other than throw and run for a ton of yards and touchdowns while not turning the football over?
     
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  26. dullfandan

    dullfandan Active Member

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    Every day on the radio ppl complain about his first down dance and show boating in the end zone on a garbage td after getting blown out.. Charlotte is extra salty with Andrew luck saying he didn't come out because the panthers front office is bad and they settled for cam.. And I won't elaborate on the racism that gets thrown around as well.. But cam is very immature although all the talent in the world but then again I point to Shula and ken Dorsey not giving cam solid advice.. Steve smith got in cams ear last year and he has been saying all the right things but when things are bad you can see in cams body language he isn't there yet mentally...
     
  27. NolesNPhinsFan

    NolesNPhinsFan New Member

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    What does Cam have to work with? An old Steve Smith?
     
  28. dullfandan

    dullfandan Active Member

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    Smith is still getting off, Olsen is a great te, lafell had a big game so we kno he can.. Panthers online is bad as ours.. Cam does overthrow wide open receivers tho.. He still has some learning to do but he is the last to get to work and the first to leave and on off days he has never voluntarily went to the film room to study tape...
     
  29. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Can't call Mike Shula a terrible O/C, he can't coach effort and desire. All he can do is coach mechanics and if what you said is true that he's the last to get to work and the first to leave, then Mike doesn't have much to work with. It also means that even with that, Cam still has a lot of untapped potential.

    I've seen Mike's offense and it looks damn good and he has made Ginn look pretty damn good this season.
     
  30. dullfandan

    dullfandan Active Member

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    Shula and Rivera are lame ducks this year.. I'm not sure what offense you are watching but shula's offense is brutal to watch... Cam isn't a film guy he believes he will get paid regardless of what he does... This offseason new oc, new system, and does cam get together with mike and hammer out the details? No he went back to arburn to hang out, be the big man on campus.. He jes isn't focused on the job he gets paid to do.. I really think he is disinterested in Carolina and is already looking forward to being in Cleveland with chuzinsky...
     
  31. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Anybody know if Cam's making more now than when he was at Auburn?
     
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  32. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Disagree strongly about Newton being "more consistent" than Tannehill. Cam has just two 4th Qtr comeback wins in his career, against the 5-11 Jaguars and 4-12 Eagles. His inconsistency pertains to decision making and general inaccuracy, not just 3+ INT games.... and his lack of INTs in a game isn't reflexive of consistency, as it's quite possible for a QB to lose games without throwing an interception. See below:

    With Cam at QB, Carolina has lost 15 games by a TD or less, 13 of those b/c Cam couldn't pull out a 4th QTR win.... and that's not including the 2 4th QTR games Newton lost despite Carolina either leading in the 4th quarter or having a chance to win but ended up losing by more than a TD.

    1. Zona 21-28: Newton had 5 chances on Zona's 11 with a minute left to win it. Furthermore, Cam failed on all four 4th Qtr opportunities to tie the game.

    2. GB 23-30:
    two 2nd half INTs led to 6 Packers points. In the 4th qtr, Cam had two separate 1st & 10's inside Packers 13 and came away with 3 points.

    3. Chi 29-34
    : started 4th QTR down by 1 [23-24]. 3 straight possessions with 0 points, including a 4th Down non-conversion that gave Chicago a short field FG. Then Cam couldn't convert a Cutler INT on Chicago's 29 into points. Cam was 3/10 passing on those 3 drives, with 1 completion for 3 yards on 3rd & 8, and another for minus 2.

    4. N.O. 27-30:
    Cam had 50 seconds & 3 TO's to get in FG range to tie it but went 2/7 passing to lose it. Also missed a 3rd & 2 at midfield on the previous drive.

    5. Atl 31-17:
    Tied 17-17 in 4th QTR. Cam goes 3 & out on the first drive. Second drive, trailing 24-17, Cam throws INT with 6 minutes left that gives Atlanta a short field TD. Gets ball back with 2 minutes left, 1 timeout, and throws another INT.

    6. Minne 21-24:
    Tied 21-21 in 4th QTR; first possession goes 3 & Out with 2 incompletions and a Cam run for 2 yards. Has 1st & 10 on Minnesota's 21 with 1:09 to play and 2 timeouts but Cam can't convert the TD for a win.

    7. Detroit 35-49:
    trailing 35-42 with 2:28 to play, Newton throws a 1st & 10 INT on Carolina's 23 to give the game away. Gets ball back with 2:00 to play and throws another INT.

    8. Atl 23-31:
    Trailing 23-24 in 4th QTR, Newton goes 3 & Out, can't convert 3rd & 2. Then Cam has 1st & 10 on Atlanta's 22 and fails to convert for TD, throwing 2 straight incompletions. Then trailing 31-24, 1st & 5 on Atlanta's 27, 3:54 to play, Newton throws 4 STRAIGHT INCOMPLETIONS to lose it.

    9. TB 10-16:
    Trailing 13-7 in 4th QTR, Cam cant convert 3rd down on the first drive. 3 & Out and sacked twice on second drive. Third drive- 4:02 to play, can't convert 1st & goal on Tampa's 7 for a TD.

    10. Atl 28-30:
    Leading 28-27, 1:51 to play, 3rd & 2 on Atlanta's 46 and Newton runs for 1 yard. 4th & 1- Newton delay of game. Falcons get ball back and win with a FG.

    11. Seattle 12-16:
    Trailing 16-10, 5:51 to play, Cam can't convert 1st & goal on the 6 including 4th & goal on the 1 to. Gets ball back with 0:59 left and has a sack fumble.

    12. Dallas 14-19:
    Leading 14-13 in 4th QTR, 8:54 to play- has a 3 & Out. Then trailing 16-14, 2:11 to play, can't convert 4 & 1 on Carolina's 40. Gets ball back with 0:53 left and fails to convert that as well to end the game.

    13. Chi 22-23
    : 4th QTR, leading 19-14, 6:52 to play, Newton throws a PICK 6 on 1st & 10 to give Chicago a 20-19 lead. Next drive, 2:43 to play, 1st & 10 on Chicago's 27, Cam throws 2 straight incompletions on 2nd & 3rd down to settle for a FG. Chicago then has 2 minutes left to win it on a last second FG.

    14.
    KC 21-27: Cam fails to score a TD on 3 staright 4th QTR possessions with a chance to win it.

    15. Zona 6-22:
    4th QTR, trailing 12-6, chance to take the lead and throws an INT on Zona's 11. Trailing 15-6, 2:48 left, has a sack/fumble on Zona's 40 that gives Zona an easy TD. Gets ball back and throws an INT with 1:54 to play to close it out.


    This is the definition of inconsistent QB play. Of the 19 games Cam could've won in the 4th QTR when trailing by a TD or less, he lost 15, won 2, and had 2 losses that weren't his fault. 8 of these 15 losses consisted of Cam throwing 1 or 0 INT, so as you can see, a QB can still fail to win games even when he isn't throwing the ball to the other team. Cam has done it all in the 4th quarter to both lose and not win games: repeated failure to convert 3rd downs, excessive incompletions, failure to convert near the endzone, costly INTs, you name- he's done it. To sum it up, if it's a tight game in the 4th quarter, Newton has been heavily unreliable and worse than inconsistent, so much so that if he hasn't had a 2 score lead heading into the 4th QTR the chances are the Panthers are gonna lose the game.

    Tannehill on the other hand trailed 9 times by a TD or less in the 4th QTR. He won 2, lost 3, and had 4 that weren't his fault [with 3 that could've been won or tied with a FG].
     
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  33. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    No he doesn't. He's gotta be one of the most unreliable 4th QTR QBs in the league. See my above post. Respectfully, I don't think it matters how many yards, TDs, and TOs he averages per game if he sucks in the 4th QTR, is virtually anemic to winning tight games, and is the epitome of a QB who gives you two and a half great quarters but one and a half lousy ones. That's the definition of inconsistency in my book, and it's tough to win games that way. I'll take Tannehill over that any day of the week.
     
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  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Act like an overconfident spoiled brat that doesn't understand the lines of leadership...doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut..doesn't display humility, players see the same thing.

    Chad Pennington led a talentless team to a division championship based on raising the players focus around him...newton can't post a winning record thus far..leadership is a real thing when it comes to a Qb...they gotta wanna follow you, to be as focused as you, or else you'll never execute as well as you need to..

    Of course we don't see everything, maybe someone will be able to tap into his personality and teach him how to lead..
     
  35. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Thanks for hashing out my above post (#102) haha. Good stuff. He's just not a guy who handles adversity well at all, on or off the field. He tends to have those massive stat games against the bum defenses in his division that really pad his season totals. Same thing happened with Matt Ryan and his gaudy numbers against weak NFC South defenses the last few years. And Cam's demeanor is really pretty miserable a lot of the time. Media and teammates calling him out for sulking and going into a sad, defeated shell, making it all about him. Not a good image guy for your franchise, on top of his inconsistency.
     
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  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And you say this because you live there and see what transpires?
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wow, sounds about right, must say..
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    like Minnesota...that team has mailed it in, and they were dealing with Adrian's sons death.
     
  39. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I had Newton rated as a 1st round QB coming out, but I wasn't willing to trade up for him. My hesitation was due to his inconsistent accuracy. When I watch Carolina games I still see too many throws that should be easy that he just misses. Now, he'll also make a play that almost nobody else could make now and then, but IMO he hurts the team too often. Basically, he excels at the off-schedule plays but is too inconsistent for my tastes at on-schedule plays. As for the maturity questions, I think there's some legit concern about his leadership ability. I doubt he's a cancer or anything, but I don't see him as a guy that will push his team mates to excel. That's just my read on him.
     
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  40. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Highly doubt they are dealing with much there.
     

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