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Clabo is very perplexed..

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Oct 17, 2013.

  1. Pariah

    Pariah Revolutionary

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    Little Rhody
    I am going to throw all the stats out the window (although I do appreciate reading about them, and the time some of you put in to research and post)...

    But I am going old school - I played football for many years and was an offensive lineman, I've also watched football for 30 years.

    I know what I see, and what I see is that Clabo sucks. No stat or lack thereof will convince me otherwise.
     
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  2. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Huh? We are 16th in ppg.
     
  3. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    We thought we were getting a road grader and we got a feather duster.
     
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  4. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    NJ
    [video=youtube;EiH3CFARknI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiH3CFARknI[/video]

    Enjoy. All Tannehill's sacks.

    There are certainly a few that are all on him. Some that are partly on him. But MANY that are in no way shape or form on him.

    This was a very painful video to make. And I will only keep it up till the end of the week as the NFL apparently complained about one of my previous videos (Tannehill's designed runs from last year which was about 12 plays scattered throughout the season)
     
  5. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    It's interesting that there are those who say Ryan doesn't move around in the pocket well or doesn't feel the rush well or doesn't manipulate the pocket. Matt Waldman had an two write ups about Ryan's ability to do just that prior to that draft.

    http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/02/09/managing-the-pocket-part-i-texas-am-qb-ryan-tannehill/

    http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/02/11/managing-the-pocket-part-ii-texas-am-qb-ryan-tannehill/

    Personally, I do not believe that Ryan has lost this ability in the transition from college to pros.
     
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  6. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    Its interesting that Richie Incognito said if the Offensive Line didn't start doing their job they should be fired and Clabo tries to deflect blame.
     
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  7. Marino1384

    Marino1384 Member

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    I get what he's saying and while it may be a little tannehill, it's 70 percent oline. Sacks like the strip sack vs the falcons and the sack that blew the ravens game, those off the top and there's many more, are all oline. There's been atleast 10 sacks where tannehill didn't even complete his drop back. Sure in the ravens game on the final drive, I screamed "get rid of it Tanny!!" At the tv but in reality his first read wr didn't even complete his route. Tannehill is young and I expect mistakes and personally I'd rather have a sack then him trying to throw the ball away fast and getting hit and throwing a flacco duck, getting picked. Hold onto the ball and take the average 25 sacks a qb may take that's fine, but when he's not completing his drop back and wr aren't even completely routes then there's an oline problem. Another thing is if he gets used to throwing the ball away after the 2 seconds that he has before he gets sacked, well lets just say he won't be completing too many passes. He's gonna get that timer in his head and he's gonna miss alot of open plays because he has to play to cater the oline.
     
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Serious suggestion. If you have the ability to (YouTube takes the privilege away if you've got enough complaints against you) then make your videos Unlisted. That means they can't be found via search. That way whoever you're trying to show the video to, the NFL would have to be snooping in on that conversation to see it.
     
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  9. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    As I suspected. We don't just give up pressure and sacks. We give it up to multiple players. How many times in that clip was Ryan facing pressure from both edges as well as the inside on the same play? I'd say in approximately half of those sacks/pressures, Ryan was getting hit by multiple defenders. Even on plays where Ryan feels the initial pressure and steps up to avoid it, he is usually hit by someone else who has beaten his man.
     
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  10. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Thanks for the suggestion. I will definitely do this.

    For this video I put no tags in it, so it's not really searchable by anything really. But I like your suggestion better
     
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  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It's funny there is a Browns sack on 3rd & 14 where Tannehill is TRYING to do exactly what people want him to do, and the very next sack on 2nd & 10 is exactly the same. He's trying to step up and out and work the pocket and avoid the pressure. But in both cases, it's guys with INSIDE leverage that have perfect ability to checkmate him. On the 2nd & 10 play, Clabo's letting his man have his inside shoulder. The more Tannehill steps up when that happens, the more he's screwed.

    And then on 3rd & 10 against the Colts, my goodness where DIDN'T the pressure come from? Tannehill felt the rush to his right and scrambled away from it exactly as he should but Werner has beaten Clabo so incredibly cleanly it doesn't matter. He's got a full head of steam. Then other guys let in their rushers and Tannehill's got three players on him.

    I mean look at the Junior Galette sack too, first of the Saints game. Some of these are sacks people want to claim Tannehill should be able to avoid, but look how CLEAN Galette beats Martin on this play. With the angle Galette had, if Tannehill tries to step up off that deep drop, Galette only pulls him down even faster. He went the only place he could go but Galette had a full head of steam already and Tannehill had no hope of outrunning him.

    Very next sack, this is what I consider a perfect example of where sometimes a quarterback is just going to need to hold onto the ball a little bit longer and wait for something to develop, Tannehill does NOT just sit on his haunches, either. He feels the clock and begins working out of the pocket. Why didn't he step up into it? Look at the video. There's a rusher coming free right in front of Tannehill. He steps out to his right the only place he can go. But can Martin sustain his block on Martez Wilson? Hell no. Tannehill working the pocket trying to buy time like so many other QBs do and it doesn't matter because his blind side blocker can't sustain.

    Very next play, boggles my mind that people think Tannehill should be able to somehow magically work his way out of that. Jon Martin gets bull rushed so bad he's actually blocking Tannehill's ability to step up into the pocket. Only thing he can do is exactly what he did, scramble left. But Clabo's blown his block so bad the pass rusher has a full head of steam and Tannehill can't avoid him.

    Oh and it just gets better. Tannehill steps up into the pocket to avoid the outside pressure and there's John Jerry's man coming free and swallowing him like Fat Bastard swallows a baby.

    I mean serioulsy, it's a comedy of errors from there.

    Sigh.

    Just watch the video.

    Just watch it.
     
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  12. 54Fins

    54Fins "In Gase we trust"

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    over there
    One year contracts will do that to a person.
     
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  13. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Very encouraging metrics on Tannehill. I feel that 3rd down performance is a huge aspect of being a winning QB.
     
  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Fascinating ain't it??

    Here's what's fascinating to me...if I polled all the other 31 qbs in the league and asked them if they could play receiver in the big twelve and have over a thousand yards, how many would say yes??

    Exactly, they would all laugh....we keep waiting for this athleticism to show up, but we can't get a good read on the ceiling there because he's without a doubt, getting poor protection from many different angles, no matter how much Clabo wants to deflect..however, we can see, even when he does get time, and the pressure mounts, that he's not that deft at the avoidance of it, nor has the quickness in the footwork and COD, So the conclusion is gray, maybe the art of scrambling and evading, and the footwork and senses involved, have absolutely no correlation to the athleticism to play receiver..the disconnect of the athleticism lyes in between the lines of maneuvering thru a pass rush , or running a square in at 12 yards..both occurrences engage athleticism, but from a different part of the brain..One requires thinking before engaging, the other doesn't.

    No great Qb become that unless he can maneuver around the pocket, you must possess the quickness in your feet and upper body and have the sense of where its coming from, at this point, I think it's safe to say Ryan needs to get better at those specific traits, and it's also safe to say that he's gonna have a hard time getting better thru experience if the protection is substandard..his main focus during the offseason should include heavy footwork training and becoming more explosive all over..

    I know this, Ryan's ceiling is from the pocket, and his escapability will improve some once he has an adequate timeframe to survey, and he's played pretty well considering some pretty bad protection and weak run game, so, while I don't think he will be the dual threat (that maybe in our minds were trying to compare him to), that chance he becomes special from the pocket, with SOME escapability, certainly gives me hope.

    Leave ya on this note, just to mess with your soul like ether, we've seen plenty of qb's switched to receiver, can you tell me a case where we have seen the opposite at both levels?

    This thought always makes me stay patient in his development.
     
  15. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    Unless your name is Grimes who should be signed to an extension ASAP.
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And third down defense.
     
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  17. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'd go further and say he's shown that ability as a professional, even. He's been quite good at throwing the ball away when he needed to rather than taking a sack in the past.

    He's being told to keep his eyes down the field and keep the play going, and to tuck if he feels pressure, I think, and it's not working well.
     
  18. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here's what I saw, feel free to correct me. Thanks Eop05 for the video.

    BROWNS
    Sack #1 Desmond Bryant : John Jerry gets beat outright.
    Sack #2 Quentin Groves : Pocket folds at the ends, Tannehill steps up, Groves peels inside on Martin and gets the sack.
    Sack #3 Desmond Bryant : Tannehill runs into this one, but Pouncey could have helped Incognito. Whether or not Pouncey was more prone to helping Jerry, I don't know. I'm putting that one on Incognito first, then Pouncey, then Tannehill.
    Sack #4 Paul Kruger : Beats Clabo outright, wouldn't be surprised if Tannehill brought the ball into his body when he saw Kruger screaming on the edge. Confidence in the tackles is a factor.

    COLTS
    Sack #5 Colt orgy at the QB: Clabo gets beat outright, but either Tannehill didn't have his protection called right or Daniel Thomas didn't know who he was supposed to block. Charles Clay needs to get out of the pocket sooner so Ryan could have gotten rid of it sooner, maybe?
    Sack #6 (This one wasn't actually a sack, but I'm not renumbering my whole list) Throw/fumble, Robert Mathis : Martin gets beat, but it looks like the back did a poor job of standing up that linebacker. Our protectors are always moving backwards into our QB too much, instead of holding their ground.
    Sack #7 Jerell Freeman (I think, underrated player) : Daniel Thomas complete whiff.
    Sack #8 Robert Mathis : Clabo beat outright.
    Sack #9 "Time runs out" : Tannehill needs to get rid of the ball, that one is on him.

    FALCONS
    Sack #10 Osi Umenyiora : Martin and Incognito need to rotate, the DE rolled a stunt because Incognito got pushed back so far, which cleared a path for the DE to the QB. This one is on both of them.
    Sack #11 Osi Umenyiora : Dion Sims whiffs, welcome to the NFL.
    Sack #12 Corner blitz : Good playcall by Mike Nolan. Tannehill could have hit Hartline but that's a little hard when the corner blitzes on the blindside of a PA call.
    Sack #13 Akeem Dent : Whiff by Daniel Thomas. I was pulling for Daniel Thomas this offseason, not to beat Lamar Miller, but in general. Now, I'm getting sick of him being on the team.
    Sack #14 Falcons orgy at the QB : Everyone gets beat on this play, but Tannehill has to check out of whatever play he was in, because it clearly took too long to develop or didn't have an outlet set up.

    SAINTS
    Sack #15 Junior Galette : Martin gets outright beat.
    Sack #16 Martez Wilson : Clabo and Martin get beat. Martin gets beat on the wide outside edge and Cameron Jordan gets into the pocket that Tannehill could have hypothetically stepped into if Clabo had kept it clean for him. On both of them.
    Sack #17 Cameron Jordan : Clabo gets outright beat.
    Sack #18 Tyrunn Walker : Multiple people at fault, the edges cave yet again, Tannehill steps up into the pocket but maybe a little too much. Jerry eventually gets beat and Walker gets the sack.

    RAVENS
    Sack #19 Courtney Upshaw : Incognito gets outright beat.
    Sack #20 Pouncey and Tannehill: Pouncey snaps high, but it was catchable. Both at fault, but that one is more on Pouncey. Put the football in his chest.
    Sack #21 Pernell McPhee : Jerry gets outright beat.
    Sack #22 Terrell Suggs : Martin gets beat, Tannehill steps up, but Terrell Suggs is too good. He bends back and gets the sack.
    Sack #23 Terrell Suggs : Martin gets beat on a bullrush.
    Sack #24 Terell Suggs (I think) : Clabo gets outright beat, inside move.
    Sack #25 Elvis Dumervil : Clabo gets beat again with the same inside move.
     
  19. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Nice invid. Here's my accounting.

    First off, stats say Tannehill has been sacked 24 times but I count 25 sacks here.
    No matter. Here's who I saw as contributing to each sack, in order of egregiousness.

    SACKS (Main Contributor First, then lesser contributors in descending order)
    1) Jerry
    2) Martin
    3) Tannehill
    4) Clabo/Tannehill (tons of space to slide if he notices rush)
    5) Clabo
    6) Martin/Miller?/Tannehill (notice that **** and slide up a half step bro)
    7) Clabo/Jerry/Daniel Thomas/Coaches (Colts jumped the snap count, teach the kid to vary it)
    8) Clabo
    9) Tannehill/Receivers
    10) Incognito/Martin/Clabo (whose man got Tannehill to step up to an angle that let the other OL's guys get to Ryan quicker)
    11) Dion Sims
    12) Martin/Coaches (well disguised pre-snap CB blitz. But Martin doesn't notice him run by him after the snap)
    13) Daniel Thomas
    14) Daniel Thomas?/Martin/Incognito/Jerry/Coaches (ATL designed amazing pick-stunt)
    15) Martin
    16) Tannehill/Martin/Clabo (if Tannehill had pulled trigger at end of drop, or thrown it away once he sensed pressure, that's not a sack. Still Martin's man got him, in part because Clabo let his man collapse pocket so Tannehill had to bail out when he wanted to step up)
    17) Clabo
    18) Clabo/Martin/Jerry
    19) Coaching (exact same pick-stunt strategy defeats Incognito/Miller as was used in Falcons game. Turner did not adjust and Ravens coaches copied ATL with success)
    20) Pouncey
    21) Jerry
    22) Martin
    23) Martin
    24) Clabo/Jerry/Martin (Ravens don't even bother rushing someone over Pouncey)
    25) Clabo (Tannehill could have stepped up if Clabo hadn't failed at his block)


    People Who Appeared The Most
    Tyson Clabo 10 mentions, contributing factor on 40% of the sacks
    Jonathan Martin 10 mentions, contributed on 40% of sacks
    John Jerry 6 mentions, contributes to 24% of sacks
    Ryan Tannehill 5 mentions, 20% contributor to sacks (note: Tannehills contribution rate has lessened as the season has progressed)
    Coaches 4 mentions, contributing 16% (that we can see, obviously play calling etc could be a much bigger contributor, or actually alleviating some sacks)
    Daniel Thomas 3 mentions (top among running backs) for 12% contribution towards sacks
     
  20. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I embedded where I agree or disagree....

     
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  21. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You know, for a team that seems to want overly athletic offensive lineman, it's clear that we only have one.

    Edit: Also, Bpk, I like how you typing in all caps makes me read it in a caveman voice.
     
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  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What part isn't working well?, and do you think something else should take the place of the tuck?.... Like yo Ryan, when you feel the pressure upon you, play football.?
     
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  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I wish I could repost Eop's video on Twitter. I don't want to do it if it will get him in trouble though.

    I just can't believe anyone could sit through that thing and come out thinking yeah man definitely Tannehill should have been working the pocket on those sacks or he held it too long. What pocket?

    I mean, sure maybe we're talking about 3 or 4 sacks where Tannehill could've done something different. But even that that "something different" would mostly be a throwaway while a guy has his legs and his dragging him to the ground. Which of course risks an interception or a penalty.
     
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  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Just watch the video and then tell me that the primary problem isn't that when the pass rushers come free, they REALLY come FREE. There's not a whole lot of guys getting walked back and flashing into Tannehill's view, giving him time to feel and react to the rush. Guys just bust LOOSE and are screaming at him with a full head of steam by the time he can even sense them.
     
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  25. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    NJ
    I couldn't agree more with this.

    It's easy to say "he should just move up in the pocket." But it's quite evident that there's a ton of interior pressure in addition to the ton of edge pressure. No pocket to maneuver in many times. Pressure comes from almost all directions
     
  26. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And the interior pressure isn't always coming from the interior linemen either. Jerry gets beat a lot, but Martin and Clabo are getting beat inside almost if not as often.
     
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  27. Sumlit

    Sumlit Well-Known Member

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    The amount of times both tackles get beat inside is frankly, a little disturbing.
     
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  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Just now 3rd & 14 in the Seattle-Arizona game was a great example of what we're NOT seeing much on these sacks with Tannehill.

    Carson Palmer sensed a collapsing pocket and was able to scramble outside of it. I believe he ran for like a 1 yard gain or whatever, doesn't matter.

    Why can't Ryan Tannehill do that more often? I'll tell you why. Because on these sacks, the pocket isn't collapsing. Well, it isn't JUST collapsing. On the collection of sacks you see on the video, you're seeing rushers come FREE of the block. And oh yeah the pocket's also kind of collapsing at the same time.

    And since the pocket is collapsing from the OUTSIDE with the offensive tackles, Tannehill can't escape right or left because those are the guys getting free! You've got a buzz in your left ear, what are you supposed to do? Move to your left right into the guy? No you move to your right and hope you've got the wheels to outrun him. Except when I say the guy is free, I really mean he's FREE. He's already got a head of steam on him. Ryan Tannehill is a former 1000 yard receiver in the Big 10 and he can't outrun that. That's how free the guy is.

    So you're supposed to move up into the pocket, right? Wrong. You've got clutter. You've got Jon Martin bull rushed directly into the space in front of you giving you nowhere to move up. You've got John Jerry getting pushed directly back. OR the man that is beating one of your tackles is beating him to the INSIDE shoulder and so moving up just basically gives him a better angle. "Thanks, Ryan! That was a lot easier!"

    Basically, we're getting to the point where Ryan's only real choice is to move BACKWARD. And he's been taught not to do that. He's been taught it's a bad idea.
     
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  29. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, it is not pressure per se, SpeedBump Clabo and Co give up INSTANT pressure.

    A Qb needs time and clean feet to make things happen most of the time, THill in keyspots is simply not getting that sort of protection.

    A lack of pressure and Qb hits on 1st and 10 is not as important as a pressure, sack, or hit, on say 3rd and 5, this is one of a host of reasons why bulk stats in the NFL mean jackola, key spots, 4th qtr, Red Zone, those matter.

    Perhaps Mr SpeedBump can illucidate us on why we are a terrible team at picking up short ydg first downs, if he is perplexed, fans are befuddled why 1 yd may as well be 15 yds.
     
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  30. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Buckeye Land
    Ouch.
     
  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Russell Wilson is rather sickeningly good. I hope they win the Super Bowl this year.
     
  32. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I like Russell. Can't stand Pete Carroll even though I think he's done a fantastic job in Seattle (who says GM/Coaches are no good anymore?).
     
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  33. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    I'm glad to see people continue to ignore facts (Tannehill routinely gets rid of the ball quicker than any QB in the league, the offensive line that Jeff Ireland has assembled on his 1,286th attempt is total horse ****) and continue to blame Tannehill.

    Whatever.
     
  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Sort of, as down as I am on the OL I've also seen THill choke in getting the ball out of his hand.

    Suspect his first read is covered, second read covered..he eats the sack rather than getting the ball out "incomplete".

    He has yet to master the sort of "near miss" incompletion, suspect that is coaching and belief in his guys to come open.

    Now take Dumervil trucking Clabo in a key situation and we are talking about different things
     
  35. sandrawilliams

    sandrawilliams New Member

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    The offensive line has allowed more hits and sacks on Ryan Tannehill per pass play than any other offensive line in football.
     
  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It makes Tannehills start pretty impressive considering he has the worst two tackles I can imagine starting, and a fat slob at right guard, suck asses.

    I mean I can isolate Ryan and see what I think his weaknesses are, but there's no doubt he's not getting the space that others do to even make that initial first move..
     
  37. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Well, if he does I'll have to label DJ the QB guru since a few years back he wanted Colin Kaepernick more than any other QB... and he went to a Superbowl.
    Last year he wanted Russell Wilson more than any other QB.


    Maybe DJ can be our QB scout, if he has the time considering his current gluteal responsibilities.
     
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  38. Killer Bees

    Killer Bees Bringin' the Ruckus

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    I believe theirs another one he called out as well, not quite sure who it was though. Deej?
     
  39. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Wilson just has "it", said it many many times, Wilson just makes things happen and always has dating back to his NCSU days.

    Railed about him during that draft, thought we should have taken Kuechly, the brighter lights in FO's around the league saw his height and passed.
     
  40. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Ahh..thing is with RTHill is..he does have "it"..his mentality and arm talent is undeniable.

    His has the heart of a champion, I say that with no hesitation, his OL is failing him.

    This is why I'm particularly unhappy with Speedbump Clabo's bull****.

    Do better, or shut up
     
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