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A bruised, battered Tannehill for Dolphins

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jim1, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    And solely blaming Tannehill for every negative play is either ignorance or forcing an agenda. No one is blaming everyone else for everything. The strip sack was on Clabo. The pick 6 on a 3 step drop was on coaching and Tannehill executing the play too fast. The End zone INT was all Tannehill.
     
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  2. Zeke0123

    Zeke0123 message board ******* Club Member

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    When I see other coaching staffs come up with great gameplans for flawed QBs like Case Keenum Geno Thad Glennon Mccown and I watch the Dolphins with no tendency breakers no decent motion for Wallace no Max P.. Rookie DBs picking up on our tendencies...gotta say Im a little hesitant to throw Tanny under the bus..how that makes me testosterone deficient is beyond me though.
     
  3. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    That's a good point. I would add to that by pointing out that we rarely hide plays with formation. Our run formations and pass formations are so clear.
     
  4. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    He's not athletic?

    Ok....do me a favor. Go back and watch the 4-10 pass he hit against Baltimore to give us a shot at winning. Then...go look at the 4-10 play at the end of the game yesterday....

    Now come back to me and tell me he isnt athletic.
     
  5. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    In addition to a franchise QB we need a franchise oline.. paging SF oline.. please report to MIA
     
  6. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    Harbaugh is quite lucky - he got to inherit a line with 3 first round picks after they booted their prior GM. Just as in KC, someone else put in the work and the next guy gets the credit.
     
  7. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    True.

    Still want their oline.
     
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  8. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Tannehill definitely gets blame for two stupid interceptions, which was at minimum a 10 point swing.
     
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  9. PhinishLine

    PhinishLine Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's you.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
     
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  10. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    No excuse actually.
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Here are the parts of the article that stood out to me:

    These parts piqued my attention because all game long I felt like the Buffalo Bills had a bead on Miami's offensive tendencies and were adjusting to them.

    So I checked the play. The coaches tape isn't available yet. But the broadcast does show some interesting things.

    [​IMG]

    First off the look that Buffalo gave the formation every time involved a single high safety with man coverage on the outsides. Both corners are playing the same technique on Mike Wallace and Brian Hartline, but I find the differences in how they play them to be interesting.

    Clearly Leodis McKelvin respects Mike Wallace's speed, so he keeps his leverage over top of Wallace while he plays man technique. To me, this should make it easier for Wallace to pull up on a hitch and get open. But he doesn't. McKelvin is all over him. He respects the speed but he knows what is coming.

    Similarly, look at the technique Aaron Williams is using on Brian Hartline. He does not respect Hartline's deep abilities whatsoever. He's giving up about two full steps of separation vertically, and he's doing it on purpose. I'm no coach but to me it seems like he KNOWS the comeback is coming, and that's what he's guarding against. By the end of the play, Aaron Williams is damn near two years behind Hartline so that he could defend the comeback.

    So when Ryan Tannehill says all we needed was half a second longer...I just wonder, are you sure about that? There's absolutely no guarantee Hartline is going to come open on that comeback against the technique that Aaron Williams played. And when I see quotes about how the play is a staple of the offense and they run it a bunch and the Bills have given the same defensive look against that formation all game long...I dunno, I think that makes the whole thing come off looking predictable. Which I think has been a problem in Mike Sherman's offense. I think he's a predictable offensive coordinator, and ever since college I've always felt like Tannehill falls in love with the same pass concepts during a game and runs them too many times and ends up burned for it.
     
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  12. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Clay was more open, even though it would take a nice throw.
     
  13. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Your last paragraph nails it. One of the main complaints Aggie fans had with Sherman/Tannehill were there performances in 2nd halves of games. When teams made adjustments they didn't have an answer.

    And I agree about predictable. The first series of the game being the prime example; Run, Run and then the little rub the Dolphins love to run on 3rd and medium that was jumped for a pick 6. You could almost envision the Bills DB's watching that play all week on film.

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
     
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's exactly right. But Tannehill was locked in on Hartline because he trusts him to get open.

    Sure enough I'm reviewing and in the 2nd quarter the Dolphins showed the same formation and the Bills had the same look against it. Hartline runs a comeback that takes forever to develop, but does come open because Aaron Williams kept his leverage over top of Hartline and so Brian was able to break underneath him back to the ball for a 5 yard gain.

    Then in the 3rd quarter, they ran nearly the same route from the same formation against the same defensive look. I say nearly the same route because Hartline took an inside release against Williams and his comeback became a curl.

    At the beginning of the 4th quarter, the Dolphins ran a similar play out of a different formation but against the same defensive look and the same coverage technique from the corners. The ball went to Wallace on the fade-stop/back-shoulder. But on the other side Gilmore was covering Hartline and unlike the play in question that Tannehill got sacked on, Gilmore stayed on top of Hartline leverage-wise and so the comeback was probably going to be open.

    Then the Dolphins ran something similar to the play again, on the sack that happened the drive before the sack-strip.

    I think during the play in question, Aaron Williams knew what was coming. I don't think that ball is complete even if Tyson Clabo gives Ryan Tannehill the extra half second.

    By the way Tannehill wasn't going to get that half second no matter what because the Bills succeeded in rushing Jerry Hughes into the backfield unopposed at the line of scrimmage, and Hughes forklifted Daniel Thomas directly back into Ryan Tannehill. Thomas actually fell on Tannehill. Seriously. Tannehill doesn't get that ball off even if Clabo did his job, because Daniel Thomas blew his block.
     
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  15. jpep13

    jpep13 Coach Of The Year Club Member

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    Which O coord could be available this offseason, not saying Sherman gets canned, but any upgrades just in case?
     
  16. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    I agree with everything you usually post, but Williams would have been destroyed on the comeback route on that play. When the DB is on your inside hip on a comeback route, thats a win for the WR/QB 99 out of 100 times. Hartline goes 3-4 more yards, chops his feet, sinks his head, and turns to the sideline. Ball is there. Completion. Williams would not have been able to stop that. Now, if Williams was on Hartline's outside hip and didn't give him a clean outside release, the ball would have most likely been incomplete.

    The comeback would have been a completion and open. A curl would have been picked off or swatted down. Thats the difference.
     
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  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Well it's interesting, but it just seems to me as if Williams is purposely slowing up on the play to take away anything breaking underneath. He's reading Hartline's body language so closely.

    I agree that allowing Hartline an outside release on that play is an excellent way to get burned on the comeback, and if Williams actually stayed on Hartline's outside hip on the play or kept over top of him them absolutely that's a complete pass. But letting him get two yards ahead of him like that, Williams is staying in 3rd gear so that he's got the agility to break on the comeback.

    I guess we'll get a better view on coaches tape because I don't think either player could be aware of the sack-fumble before they reach the break on the route. But I think it's a fair bet that Williams would have had the route covered.
     
  18. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Are we really going to go through the Brian Daboll saga again? If that taught us anything it's that the head coach is equally to blame.
     
  19. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    Clay looked open to me but it doesn't matter. Mike Sherman acts like the middle of the field is a shark tank.
     
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  20. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    The Ravens fired their offensive coordinator in the middle of the season, and won the Super Bowl. Sometimes, coordinators are 100% to blame.
     
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  21. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    I understand where you are coming from, but again Williams wouldn't be able to turn around quick enough even in 3rd gear. The comeback route is one of the hardest routes to defend in football and Williams was not going to do anything from where he was/playing. Its a picture perfect example of a CB getting burned on the comeback. The WR has a free outside release and he is driving downfield. Williams is on his hip pocket and his momentum is going downfield as well. Hartline sinks his hips, throws his head, chops his feet and turns outside and the ball is there. Williams is going to be late to the ball because of how he is playing it.
     
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  22. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    Sherman isn't going anywhere unless Philbin goes.
     
  23. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    In this case the head coach is also a former offensive coordinator. Changing the coordinator for this team isn't going to do a god damn thing.
     
  24. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    And you know this because you are in the meetings and now how "hands on" Joe Philbin is with the offense?

    I'm not saying Philbin is without fault, his free pass has expired. I'm just saying, sometimes it really is a coordinator issue. I think Sherman should get fired if this team wins less than 8 games and/or continues to show zero growth on the offensive side of the football.
     
  25. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Philbin isn't going to fire his former boss, get used to it Sherman will remain the OC as long as Philbin is around. Only thing you all can hope for is Sherman gets a head coaching offer.
     
  26. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    I like it. We just need a better QB to run the offense.
     
  27. jpep13

    jpep13 Coach Of The Year Club Member

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    I think all coaches and Tannehill get 1 more season to prove what they have. If we have a losing season next year get the **** out. With that being said still 10 games left in the regular season.
     
  28. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    As I said he throws great great on the run. Nobody can deny that. But when hes in the pocket or when he tucks it to run he just looks so uncomfortable. His reputation as a college wr belies the way he plays QB. It doesnt translate well.
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I understand that those are the rules and the coaching axioms and I don't doubt your experience with them, but it just seems to me like NFL athletes break those rules all the time. Like I'm pretty sure I've seen corners defend that route from exactly the position Williams was in, because they trail the receiver far enough back that it nullifies the advantages you're talking about.

    But a LOT of this would obviously depend on the quality and timing of the throw.
     
  30. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Actually, he had to clear the Ref, they were trying to use him as a pick on the Db.

    THill has to show mental toughness to be great, do think Ck is correct in that our tendencies are fairly visible even to casual fans, Hartline is going to run a comeback route, THill has no time to hit Hartline on the double move.

    Hopefully, ditching Speed Bump will improve the situation, and moving Martin back to RT should help as well, he was a better player at RT than LT.
     
  31. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    just as bad as you posting as another teams fan in disguise
     
  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    While this certainly leaves plenty of room for interpretation and I respect the disagreement nonetheless, the coaches tape for the 2nd & 8 comeback route is up and I feel like Hartline did not necessarily get open on the play. Despite allowing the outside release, I think Williams played the route specifically knowing what to expect and so when Hartline chopped his feet and began his break on the comeback, Williams was able to use Hartline's position being ahead of him by nearly two yards in order to react to Hartline's break and cover the comeback.

    What you have is two things working against one another. Hartline's going to make his break and there will be a human reaction time delay for Williams recognizing the break and making his own break. If the two were even with one another, this reaction time would have caused an advantage for Hartline in moving back the way he came. By allowing Hartline to run in front of him instead of running even, Williams appropriately canceled the reaction time disadvantage because he doesn't have to travel as far back down his stem as Hartline does. As soon as he reacts and breaks back, he's already where the ball will be whereas Hartline has to travel two yards back down his stem in order to get there. This creates an advantage for Williams that may have nullified the reaction time advantage that Hartline had.

    Of course, a lot would have depended on the quality and timing of Tannehill's throw, and whether Hartline could have made a physically challenged catch (which if you'll allow me to say, is not a strong suit of his).

    [​IMG]
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Also here's a nice screen cap that shows that Ryan Tannehill was not going to get that ball off well regardless of whether Clabo's block held up or not.

    Charles Clay released on the play without getting a lick on pass rusher Jerry Hughes. Clay seemed more focused on using his hands to get a clean release off the line of scrimmage. That was fine with Hughes, because he was thinking the same thing, as he used his hands to get into the backfield as cleanly as he could. Rookie tight end Dion Sims blocked down on the play, leaving Hughes unchallenged at the line of scrimmage. This left Daniel Thomas the unpleasant task of trying to stop Hughes. Thomas set up too close to the quarterback and approached the block flat-footed instead of using momentum to attack Hughes. The result was Hughes absolutely fork-lifted Thomas directly in the air and straight back into Ryan Tannehill.

    Even if Clabo had held up his block, Tannehill was going to be hit by the flinged Thomas right as he was trying to release the football. It would have been recorded as a "hit as threw" attempt and was not likely to be accurate. It might have even been intercepted, given the positioning Aaron Williams had on the play...which he seemed to know was coming.

    [​IMG]
     
  34. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    On this route, he would be completely blanketed. For one, Hartline doesn't even run a comeback. He's running a curl, which is completely different than what Tannenhill said yesterday. That's my mistake. If Hartline ran an actual comeback route, turning to the outside and veering back towards the sideline, it would have been complete.
     
  35. iknoweverything

    iknoweverything Banned

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    I sure as hell hope so. Whatever it takes. But a fire needs to be lit in his ***.
     
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  36. iknoweverything

    iknoweverything Banned

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    Good job. I like that. If Tanny actually got the ball off it would have been his second pick 6 of the day. I saw Clay or maybe it's Miller (hard to tell) open over the middle. That would have been a good option and possibly lead to a big play. Another thing, Hartline had the CB beat for the fly route. All that said, just wish Tanny would have sensed the pocket collapsing and just held onto the ball as ball security was priority number uno in this scenario.
     
  37. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    Yeesh. We left 7 into to block. What was the timing on that hit? < 2 seconds?

    Does anyone have a gif of that Hartline overthrow? I deleted my DVR'd game out of anger
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Wow, I was concentrating so much on where Aaron Williams was that I didn't even notice that you're right, Hartline turned inside instead of outside.
     
  39. DePhinistr8

    DePhinistr8 Season Ticket Holder

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    My very unofficial stopwatch has it at 1.8 seconds from snap to contact on Tannehill. I don't know how in the world he could be expected to do anything in that time. I think I blink slower.
     
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  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I wouldn't call it "beat" because I think it was voluntary for Williams. He knew that if Hartline started looking up for the football on the vertical, Williams has enough of a speed advantage to be able to gear up and close the distance. He was more worried about the underneath breaking route.
     

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