1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Barry Jackson Sports Buzz: More unfulfilled Dolphins promises, expectations

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jim1, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    IMO the D has been more of a disappointment than the O just b/c I had higher expectations for the D. The D was/is? a potential top 5 unit and has been average. My hope for the O was scoring about 23 pts per game. They're a little below that at 21.7. I think the biggest difference in the D is the S play of Jones. Coyle's D is designed to get big plays from the S and they haven't been there this year. The other difference (or rather failure compared to expectations) has been the pass pressure from the ends. Wake has been hurt and and Jordan hasn't been used as much as he should be. I think the LB play has been fairly close to what we got last year. The CB play is much better this year, but it's a limited impact position.

    As for the O, my critiques are that they've abandoned the inside run too quickly and they stuck with trying the outside stretch too long when they lacked the Ts to do it. They've also resisted moving RT around in the pocket apparently out of just stubbornness. RT throws great on the run and can run. I also think that moving RT around gets him in the mindset that he needs to move and gets the opposing D to think for a beat before just aiming for a spot 7 or 8 yards behind the center. Both of those would help our protection issues.
     
    smhemi, djphinfan, MrClean and 3 others like this.
  2. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Sounds like Coyle should be blitzing him more so he can generate a decent amount of sacks.
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Why?
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    For the most part I completely agree.

    But I do think the run D has also been a disappointment, particularly in the fourth quarter. I think it deserves mention among the other criticisms.

    Should probably also be noted that when Lamar Miller got going against the Pats it was on outside runs. I don't think they need to stay away from outside runs. I think they just need to do that with Miller more.
     
  5. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    Good point. I should have mentioned the run D in the 4th as well.

    As for the outside runs, I don't want them to not use them at all. I just don't like the stretch play here. I think the off-tackle runs where Miller has the option of bouncing it outside are a great weapon. Miller's strength is his speed. Our T's strength is not at moving outside of the the ends or at mirroring them down the line. But the T is helped if Miller aims for just inside the T and the defender moves in on his own. Then Miller can use his speed to get outside or just shoot the gap inside. Miller does a poor job of breaking tackles, but he was successful when he just beat the D to the edge. I want to see more of that, but I think that is set up by sticking with run calls between the Ts.
     
  6. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

    18,425
    6,346
    113
    Dec 5, 2007
    clearwater, fl
    He was just outrunning the entire defense to the spot on almost every play. It was a clear mismatch
     
  7. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

    30,224
    36,965
    113
    Dec 2, 2007
    Jersey
    Random question, but since we're talking about sacks and pressures, is there a site that shows the number of pressures/hurries and hits a player has?

    I see people mention them at times, but never know where to go to find them.
     
  8. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

    2,671
    879
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Chesapeake, Virginia
    There is plenty enough disappointment to go around for both sides of the ball. Of all of the issues being considered I still think the offensive line is the biggest problem. With all of the tinkering they have done with the offensive line they need to change their approach because it hasn't worked so far. And if Mckinnie is an improvement over what he replaced at this juncture in his career then that is a real statement concerning the Dolphin's personnel decisions. And I really don't think it is hating on any players its just stating the obvious. Yes, I am disappointed in Tannehill's performance, but IMO it is a collective problem that he shares with the terrible line play.
     
  9. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

    7,760
    3,486
    113
    Sep 4, 2010
    Maui, Hawaii
    I remember after last season, there was a general feeling that the Dolphins had plenty of money under the cap and enough high draft picks in the 2013 to fill many of the holes on this roster. It was thought that with all the drafts picks and the free agent money to spend, this would be a much improved team in 2013.

    So far after the first seven games this season, I just don't see this team being any better than the 2012 team which finished last year 7-9.

    The overall defense this year is not as good as the 2012 defense, especially against the run. The defensive line remains the strongest unit on the entire team, but they are doing it with basically the same players they had in 2012. Jordan has made a few excellent plays this season, but his playing time seems to be decreasing in recent weeks, instead of expanding.

    The linebackers this year are not as good a unit as last year. Ellerbe and Wheeler have been a downgrade from Dansby and Burnett, and certainly not the upgrades they were suppose to be. Misi is basically the same player he has been during his entire time with the Dolphins. A very mediocre LB who never seems to make any impact plays on defense.

    The secondary basically replaced Smith with Grimes. Smith is playing great for the Chiefs, and Grimes is probably the best player in the Dolphins secondary. So that was probably an even deal for the Dolphins.
    Jones isn't playing to the level he did in 2012 and Clemons is the same dependable but also mediocre safety he has been throughout his time with the Dolphins. Patterson has played well during his time on the field, but injuries have prevented him from getting on the field much of this season. Carroll, Wilson, and the rest of the secondary backups are mediocre at best and the secondary really suffers the most when any of these backups are in the game.

    On offense Tannehill appears to be progressing earlier in the year, but with the play of the OL this season, Tannehill has regressed in recent weeks. He is just turning over the ball too often and he still hasn't shown that he has the ability to hit the deep pass when he is given the opportunity to throw the ball deep. Right now I'm not sure this 2013 version of Tannehill is better than the 2012 Tannehill.

    The OL this year is a complete joke. Even with Long at LT last year and Martin at RT, the 2012 OL was far superior to this 2013 offensive line. This is by far the weakest unit on the entire roster.

    At the TE position, I would consider it about even. Fasano was a much better blocker than any of the TE's on this years roster, but Clay is a better overall receiver. I think Keller would have been a major upgrade if he had not been injured in preseason, but since he never played in any regular season games, we really don't know what type of impact he would have made for this offense.

    I have said all along that Reggie Bush is a better RB than Miller or Thomas and I still feel that way. I would much rather have Bush as the primary RB and Miller as his back up. Thomas could have been kept as the third string RB, but without Bush, the RB position in 2013 isn't as strong as it was in 2012.

    Until Gibson was injured this past weekend, I thought this WR group was the one unit which was better than the 2012 WR group. Now with Gibson out for the rest of the season and Wallace showing that he just isn't as good as advertised, I don't see the WR group (without Gibson) being any better than the 2012 Dolphin receivers.

    When Carpenter was cut and Sturgis was given the job, the feeling seemed to be that the Dolphins had upgraded the position. Now after missing four out of his last five FG attempts and Carpenter kicking the winning FG for the Bills against the Dolphins two weeks ago, there has to be a question if the right kicker was cut during the preseason. Carpenter is 16-18 with four kicks made over 50 yards. Sturgis is 7-11, with 5 kicks made over 50 yards.

    Stugis may prove to be the better kicker in the future, but right now the stats seem to say that Carpenter is the better kicker.

    Special teams this year appear to not be quite as good in regards to punt and kickoff returns. Thighpen doesn't seem to have the quickness or awareness in the returns he had last year. The coverage units are about equal with last year. The one positive for this unit is the punting of Fields, who continues to be one of the top punters in the NFL.

    The coaching this year has not improved from 2012 and in many cases seems to have regressed.

    So my feeling is that if the 2012 Dolphins played this years 2013 version of the Dolphins. The 2012 version would win the game. That just makes me wonder why all those free agents and draft picks selected after the 2012 season was over haven't done anything to improve this roster from last year.

    Perhaps it's because the man responsible for selecting these players didn't do a good job. Hopefully the owner is taking note of that.
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Pro Football Focus
     
    Rocky Raccoon likes this.
  11. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

    30,718
    5,415
    113
    Jan 6, 2010
    That's alot of money in LB's who can't play the run, meanwhile in Arizona Dansby is having one of his best years so far....
     
  12. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    In a 3/4 scheme or a 4/3 scheme, if you have an OLB that's highly efficient as a pass rusher why not use him more in that role to the point where he's actually getting a decent number of sacks? Make use of the ability to the point of the opposing Quarterback is being put on his rear, not just pressured.
     
  13. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

    2,906
    718
    0
    Nov 24, 2007
    Giving up on the run game in the 2nd half of games and getting Tannehill passing more and getting sacked which are drive killers means one thing. The Defense goes straight back in. Anybody know what our longest drives on Offense are regarding using up the clock? I don't think the Defense is such a major problem. Offense has to stay on the field longer and 1. Give the D a breather and 2. Get a decent lead and not come out 2nd half and give up turnovers in bad field position for the D. The Offense isn't hitting on any long plays either which means our point scoring isn't great and the Defense isn't protecting decent leads. The Defense right now is about keeping it either close or to stop the opposition from getting TDs and getting FGs instead. Its damage limitation after the Offense keeps giving the ball back.
     
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    First off you really need to distinguish between a 3-4 and a 4-3 because that's a very, very important distinction.

    And I'll tell you why you have to control how much your 4-3 OLB blitzes. Every time he does that, you leave a gap in the coverage. You now have six guys trying to cover the field instead of seven.

    I think either you're kind of trying to re-invent the wheel with respect to 4-3 OLBs and how often they blitz, or maybe you just don't have a great perspective on what the low, high and normal is on blitzing for 4-3 OLBs.

    And you're way too focused on number of sacks as the end-all product of blitzing and pass rushing.
     
  15. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    17,638
    14,099
    113
    Mar 23, 2008
    Pearl, Mississippi
    As CK has pointed out, some of the statistics can mislead, but much of what Barry provides here is meat and potatoes and speaks volumes regarding outcome. An owner with this information can press the production of his front office and coaches. If these numbers do not improve over the course of the next 9 games, Ross will have a difficult time justifying the presence of Ireland and at least some of the coaches, even if he wants to keep Philbin. But unfortunately for him, if this is going to be done right, a new gm will want a new coach and staff. Losses to Cincy and heaven forbid Tampa would jumpstart discussion on this.
     
  16. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    I'm with you on the distinction, the 3/4 OLB is going to, on average pin his ears back and go after the QB on a more regular basis. That much is a given. You'll never hear me say that it's all about the sacks and not about the pressures, either. What gets me is averaging 1 sack a year over a five plus year career. It reminds me a bit of the Hartline TD discussions- is his lack of TD production a problem, given his role, or not? I'd say yes. That's not an exact metapor, so there's no need to run with the ball on that one.

    Coverage and contain responsibilities of a 4/3 OLB aside- and i'm by no means dismissing them- I'd certainly like to see more that one measly sack per year from our OLBs, especially one who is being touted as one of the very best 4/3 OLB pass rushers in the game.
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Then I think you're focusing on a very unimportant detail.

    WHEN Wheeler was used in Oakland similarly to how he's being used in Miami, he had 3 sacks. Is that a more acceptable number to you?
     
  18. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    If we lose to Cincinnati (good chance of that happening imo) and then to Tampa Bay, I'd imagine that either heads will roll or at least some coaching and FO necks are going to get mighty uncomfortable. Picture the executioner in the near distance sharpening his blade. Sometimes you just have to draw the line, case in point Clabo being canned from his starting role and the trade for McKinnie. Enough was simply enough.
     
  19. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    I'm a big Philbin fan. He was my guy when most were focusing on Cowher and Gruden, but I see more coaching failures than personnel failures from this off-season. Part of it is that we know the coaches were heavily involved in selecting players they felt fit their system. The coaches have confirmed that they were given scouting film of all of the potential targets and provided their recommendations on the targets. Obviously we don't know if their recommendations were followed or ignored, but my read is that the coaches did feel they were part of the process so their recommendations were most likely followed to a large extent.

    The main moves I questioned this off-season were Wallace, Bush and Gibson. I also questioned making the reported +$8 mill offer to Long, but since he didn't sign here I feel we dodged that. I saw a spacing benefit from Wallace, but I never saw him as a complete player or a #1. I didn't see as much benefit and cost with that contract, but the way it was structured I thought the downside was limited in terms of time. They could at least bail from it in a couple of years without long-term cap consequences.

    Bush I questioned, but I can't say I was definitive on either side. Bush has some strengths and some warts. RBs tend to be fungible and I thought it was reasonable to believe that Miller is ready.

    Gibson I questioned initially since I wanted one of the draft prospects and I think their target was Austin. They never expected to luck into the Jordan pick for so little. But until this fluke injury, I would have to say that Gibson was a very good signing. I see Jordan as a coup, but I'm still waiting for the coaches to use him.

    The LBs I think have been about a wash. They didn't get enough big plays from the old set nor are they getting enough from the new set, but they're at least younger and a little cheaper, I believe.

    I loved the Grimes and Keller signings. Grimes has been great, but CBs have such limited impact that our record doesn't reflect it. Keller obviously was hurt before the season. I don't have a problem with letting Fasano go. It would have been over-paying to keep him and I think we're getting about the same level of blocking from Sims and Egnew (surprisingly!) of late. Taking a long-term view, those two are much more cost effective for this year and beyond. I liked the CBs we drafted as well. I expect that late this year and beyond they will be solid additions. I wanted other positions taken, but I do think the players are talented and good scheme fits.

    I don't have an issue with Sturgis over Carpenter. I don't have any reason to believe that he would have been any better here and he obviously was about 10 times the cost. It's not like the kick last game would not have been blocked had Carpenter kicked it and I don't believe Carpenter would have hit the 54 harder earlier or been any more likely to have made the kicks that Sturgis has missed. I also think Sturgis' KOs are far deeper.
     
  20. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    As I said in post #38 in anticipation of you diving head first into the Socratic method:

    "I'm sure that the actual 4/3 pass rushing stats will surprise me a bit, but 1 sack per year?"

    Three sacks per year is obviously better that one, but regardless of the scheme responsibilities of a 4/3 OLB I have a hard time looking at Wheeler averaging one sack per year and saying "Man what a great pass rusher that guy is!" Points noted about how he's been used in the past, but nonetheless I'll pass on that. Is he an efficient pass rusher? Based on the numbers i can go with that. Is he a great/excellent/very good pass rusher at a clip of one per year? I'll pass on that one, and I'd think that the scheme should reward him for his efficiency and increase his number of rush attempts.
     
  21. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    As I said, you're focusing on the wrong detail. You might as well accuse Philip Wheeler of failing to notch sacks in the NFL while he was at Georgia Tech.
     
  22. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Dodged signing Long? After the crap fest that we were left with at OT this year? You've go to be kidding me. I'm not buying the argument i've seen on this board of "well, we should have done a better job replacing him." Of course we should have. But the reality is this: our OL blows now. I am left absolutely scratching my head as to comments that we're better off without Jake Long.
     
  23. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

    9,802
    7,239
    113
    Jan 4, 2008
    Swamps of Jersey
    Generally, I think they do. But at the same time I think people expect more out of the defense, so it becomes almost as equally disappointing when they're not at the level they should be.
     
    Rocky Raccoon likes this.
  24. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    Here's a copy of my same post in another thread on the same point:

    I just don't see Long as a sound long-term decision. They want to use more move blocking to take advantage of Pouncey's mobility. I don't see much sense in tying up so much of your cap on a ill-fitting player with significant health concerns. I even said before the season that I thought Long might be better this year than what we got out of Martin this year, but I didn't think it was a good bet that Long would still be the better player for us in years 2 and 3 of that albatross of a contract. And in general it may no longer make sense to allocate as much of your salary cap to Ts when you have a quick passing game that negates so much of the end pressure on it's own. Obviously you don't want a turnstile there, but you may be able to get 90% of the production for about 10% of the cost and then use some of that savings to bolster more impact positions.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  25. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Rafael, I always respect your opinions- even this one- but I'll just agree to disagree. Not re-signing Jake Long, no matter how many times the subject has been sliced, diced and rehashed in an attempt to justify it, has been a complete disaster.
     
    LBsFinest likes this.
  26. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    Agree to disagree. I just don't think it's reasonable to believe that he would have made a difference in our record this year had he signed here and I have no doubt that he would have had a huge impact on our cap this year and going forward.
     
  27. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Strongly disagree, but still agree to disagree. He would have been well worth the money.
     
  28. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    23,683
    44,622
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Personally, I think most people assumed the defense would be better than it is. I believe there are more glaring issues on offense that mask the defense's deficiencies. But, when you spend top dollar on two guys in free agency, sign another starter, and draft a defensive player 3rd overall and manage to do worse than the year before, that's pretty damning in my book and should be cause for concern. I don't think it has been talked about as much because of the offense; just trying to point out there are serious issues on BOTH sides of the ball and it is odd that it's not being discussed as much as I'd argue the D is under-achieving more so than the offense based on last year and the changes made. Which, is why I find it odd that Kevin Coyle goes relatively unmentioned, when perhaps he should be mentioned just as much as Mike Sherman.

    I mean, as Barry Jackson points out, there's been a pretty drastic drop-off from Mike Nolan's defense to Kevin Coyle's, and it's still a continuing trend as we speak.
     
  29. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Dansby also leads all ILB/MLBs in passes defensed with 6.
     
  30. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    They did against NE, on the TD pass to Dobson, Wheeler was blitzing and in Brady's face when he threw.
     
  31. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Considering that Wheeler is usually blitzing the A-gaps, I'm not sure its reasonable to expect a high sack total. Its pretty much coming right in front of the QB, he's going to get rid of the ball, and thats essentially the goal.
     
  32. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    PFF has Wheeler as one sack, 4 hits, 10 hurries. The players ranked immediately below him in pass rush rating have far fewer hurries.
     
  33. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Well, looking at the changes from last season, Odrick no longer the RDE, Ellerbe/Wheeler instead of Dansby/Burnett, and different corners, along with some scheme adjustments, it all adds up to a step backwards. To me, it most speaks poorly of the man making the personnel decisions. At best he is just spinning his wheels, not upgrading the roster.
    Looking at how well Vontae Davis is playing, we'd be better off this season if he were still on the team and paired with Grimes. PFF has Davis as the 2nd best corner currently in coverage rating. I remember all those Ireland apologists and loyal followers defending that trade last year.
     
    Mcduffie81, jw3102, LBsFinest and 2 others like this.
  34. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    They should both be equally questioned, and if there isn't some improvement the rest of the season, both be replaced next season. If Philbin won't fire his former mentor, he needs to go too.
     
    RoninFin4 likes this.
  35. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    I have been called a Ireland apologist many times and I hated the Vontae Davis trade.
     
  36. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I have hated the Davis trade from the get go, and nothing that has happened to this point makes me feel better about it. Now, in a year or two Taylor could develop into a starting corner of the same ability but until that happens, if it does, the trade is a bad mark on Ireland's record as a GM in my book. None of the reasons given last year by the defenders of the trade made sense then and still don't now. "We had Marshall, he beat out Davis as a starter." That was one reason given. How'd that work out for ya? "Davis is playing poorly in Indy". After some struggles in his first couple games, he was solid the rest of last season and this season has been stellar. Oops a daisy Ireland loyalists, guess you were wrong there too. While we are waiting for Jamar Taylor to maybe become a good starter, something Davis was even as a rookie, Davis is grinding away, logging good snaps right now this season, for Indy. One other bad mark on Ireland to me is even when he identifies and acquires good talent he often does not know enough to keep it and surround it with better support. His swap outs to try to upgrade end up being a push at the very best, and often not even that.
     
  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    I have been called a Ireland loyalist and there has been no point where I positive about the Davis trade.

    In fact, people who would call themselves, "Ireland haters" were the ones more happy about the trade when it happened due to the fact they didn't like Davis because he was drafted by Ireland.

    Still, I blame Philbin more for the trade due to his short sidenesses and unwilling to coach up a player as talented as Davis. OR Coyle, whoever on the coaching staff made the decision that Davis should not be a part of their long term plan.
     
    MrClean likes this.
  38. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    9,153
    9,876
    113
    Dec 9, 2012
    I feel like Lou Anarumo had a big part in the Davis trade, judging by his presence and opinions on Hard Knocks. Don't really know for sure though. In the end, it's Ireland that pulled the trigger.
     
  39. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    While I agree that it is Ireland who pulled the trigger, still I would put more blame one the coaching staff.

    If my wife writes me to buy red meat sauce on the list, and turns out when I come home she wanted an white cream sauce, it isn't my fault for buying it. However I would take fault because I would want a happy marriage.
     
  40. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    23,683
    44,622
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Coach A, as the players seem to call him, didn't seem like the biggest Vontae fan.
     

Share This Page