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General Manager Candidates

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    David Shaw has already stated that he has no desire to leave Stanford at this point. That could be posturing, but he has pretty much stated that his wife is happy in SF.
     
  2. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Here's a thought though.

    The Dolphins should really consider hiring a CEO/President of Miami Dolphins and bring the football operations and business side underneath this one person. I think Stephen Ross has proven to be inept at trying to be the owner and have both sides reporting to him with little communication between the two sides among each other. Then, let this person identify and hire the GM/Head Coach/Director of Football Operations....etc.
     
  3. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah, but maybe he went to the Nick Saban school of PR.


    So much of a GM's success seems is tied to coaching. Like the guy for the Pats, is that his success drafting or Belichek's successful coaching?
     
  4. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They do seem to always be cap strapped. When you have good players you generally want to resign them! Thats a concept thats been lost on us for a while. :lol:

    And not for nothing: Victor Cruz, Stevie Brown, Jacquain Williams, Kevin Boss, Jake Ballard, etc....theres a long list of late round/UDFA types on his watch that made real contributions and in Cruz and even Stevie Brown's cases really blossomed in to solid players. Brown has a torn ACL now but was a leader in INT's last year. Many of those have Marc Ross's name on it.

    My top Gm candidates are:
    1: DeCosta - He would have been a Gm long ago if he had been willing to up and leave for any chance. He knows hes good though and will get his choice imo.
    2. Marc Ross - Very strong from the college scouting side. Worked in a model organization. High pedigree education. Got an interview with Carolina this past offseason but Carolina opted for his NYG front office running mate.
    3. Omar Khan/Dawn Aponte - These guys are good from the cap management side for the most part and contract structuring but inexperience on the personnel side knocks them down a bit for me.

    Heckert wouldnt be bad either as Section mentioned. He did a great job in Philly during McNabbs prime years though his inability to get the final pieces for that team worries me. then again lets get to that point.
     
  5. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Who is running the Bengals scouting department? We should hire them.

    EDIT: Its Duke Tobin.
     
  6. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    That is why I stated that the next GM should decide if he wants to keep Philbin as the HC or not. It should not be a requirement by Ross that the next GM must agree to keep Philbin.

    Also I don't know when you read that Philbin was so highly regarded, but a loss to Buffalo at home a few weeks ago and another loss to the previously winless Bucs last night, might just have some of those same individuals questioning Philbins abilities as a HC at this time.
     
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    So no one has an opinion about a guy that helped build the current 49ers and the current Seahawks....Scot McCloughan Senior Personnel Executive from Seattle?

    I genuinely thought that would get more response.
     
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  8. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Well the issue for me is deciphering what "helped" means. Its just impossible to actually know what he did, and what type of role he plays. He could just be a conduit or he could even be a weak link in those organizations.

    His name does fit the lines of what people are speculating though; high-ranking administrator within an organization that has a recent history of winning.
     
  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    He was GM in SF and drafted 5 pro bowlers and 11 of the 22 that went to the SB. Then he went on to Seattle and has been the "Brian Gaine" of the Seahawks through their excellent talent acquisitions.
     
  10. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I would certainly hope Ross would have an interest in someone with the background McCloughan has with the Seahawks and the 49er's. I just don't know enough about him to express an informed opinion beyond your comments regarding his work in helping to rebuild the 49er's and the Seahawks.

    Hopefully he will be on the short list of individuals Ross interviews for the GM position.
     
  11. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    "Went on to Seattle" is glossing it over a little bit. He was either fired or terminated for cause, and it's never been reported what exactly happened. It occurred suddenly, so he very likely did something Pretty Bad, but it's telling to me that it hasn't been reported what. Sort of like the Ryan Mallett accusations; it's never been outright reported what the deal with Mallett was, so it's either BS or very bad.

    In a vacuum, I'd like McCloughan as a candidate, but I want to know what happened.
     
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  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I was hoping someone would know enough about him to give us an idea.
     
  13. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Me too.
     
  14. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Right, but what hand did he have in drafting those guys? Is he the one scouting them? Is he just a guy relying on a superior scout?

    You cannot copy results. What you can copy is a process. The process that led to these draft selections - and his role in that process - is what I'm interested in hearing about.
     
  15. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    1. Coughlin
    2. Pennington
    3. Tomlin


    That's my short list.
     
  16. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I went on line to read more about McCloughan. There was a Huffington report which stated that he left the 49er's GM position because of, "personal issues, not related to football". Depending on what these issues were at the time will probably have a determination if Ross will consider him for the job or not.

    Obviously the Seahawks value him as a personnel man and without knowing the details of his departure from the 49er's, it is difficult to know if he would be the right fit or not for the Dolphins GM position. I'm sure Ross will be able to find out the details of his departure from the 49er's, if he actually has an interest in McCloughan for the Dolphins GM position.
     
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  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    David Shaw says he is not leaving Stanford but the context of that statement is important. The rumor he was shooting down was that he would leave Stanford to go coach another college team. Even those close to Stanford fully believe Shaw could one day go back to the NFL where he was a long time assistant coach.
     
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  18. Third Man

    Third Man Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The worry with Shaw I would think is that he'd turn out to be Dennis Erickson to Jim Harbaugh's Jimmy Johnson.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm not seeing the parallel. Is it just because Erickson took over for Jimmy Johnson? He didn't coach under Johnson, wasn't influenced by him, didn't bring Johnson's systems with him wherever he went. That's what I think separates David Shaw from that parallel. Shaw is a disciple of Harbaugh's, not just his successor.

    I'm actually impressed this year with Shaw. I think there's been plenty of time for the Harbaugh magic to wear off that program. It's not. In fact this might be the strongest Stanford team since Harbaugh took over.
     
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  20. Third Man

    Third Man Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's not so much the specific example of Erickson and Johnson, it's more that I think we tend to want to give credit to the person who maintains success when to me at least that's not as difficult as building success in the first place. Not that it's nothing. There are plenty of examples of things crumbling. But there are also plenty of examples of success sort of being maintained for a while before it starts to come apart. This is the third year he's been the head man there and I agree it's still riding really high, even though they haven't had the kind of quarterback play obviously that they had when Luck was there.

    One thing that's undoubtedly impressive is Shaw's manner. His class. He doesn't have that self-deprecating awkwardness that Philbin has.
     
  21. ILDolPhan

    ILDolPhan New Member

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    This could be a nice setup if Ross was to hire a Russ Ball or Omar Kahn as the Team President who then could bring in a young, promising GM type in the scouting community. Then both would work together in finding the next Head Coach, so that everyone is on the same page and the long term philosophies of building a team would marry. Russ and Omar both have exp on the business admin side (and maybe some work with the newer analytical ideas?) while coming from 2 organizations that build through the draft. That structure would bring the business side and football side together rather than Miami's current setup that seems somewhat disconnected. I worry that Ross may end up keeping Dawn Aponte which prevents the full cleansing that is needed.
     
  22. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    Can moneyball work in the NFL?
     
  23. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    I think it certainly can. What people need to understand is that using stats is not taking the place of traditional scouting. It is in addition to traditional scouting.
     
  24. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    A new GM that can cobble together a few pieces to patch the Oline, and a new staff with a good system, I can see a very quick turnaround. We have some good pieces. Some playmakers. We saw it with Atlanta, New Orleans, SF, Seattle (although Schneider and Carroll have done a phenomenal job drafting and acquiring players) and KC.
     
  25. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Can we please take anyone associated with the Dallas Cowboys off speed dial!!!
     
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  26. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You assume Coughlin gets fired when the NYG front office loves him. Additionally, are you ready to assume Chris Snee as an addition because Snee is Coughlins Son in law? As long as the NYG keep playing hard for him, I think Jerry reese and the front office will see this year as a rebuilding year. They were very flawed on the OL and RB spots (sound familiar?) sattled with a qb that has too many turnovers (again, sound familiar?) and a defense that was predicated on a pass rush but had JPP recovering from back surgery just 8 weeks before the season, Tuck looking done for a while, and Kiwanuka not re-adjusting to playing DL instead of LB.

    Id be ok with Coughlin, I just dont see it happening.
     
  27. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    the poor house

    hey Frumundah do you think we have a chance to get rid of Mike Sherman ? I want him gone as much do Philbin .
     
  28. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    I used to be a pretty big proponent of having a strong GM, but nowadays I wonder if that wasn't (at least in part) due to witnessing Wanny waste perfectly good draft selections and watching Saban treat Davie like his own private Third Reich. Guys like Pete Carroll or Jim Harbaugh make a pretty compelling argument of picking a strong coach with a "personel background" (even if it's "only" recruiting for a major program) and pair him up with a GM he's comfortable with.
     
  29. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Some will laugh, but I'd take a hard look at some of the guys who have been draft pundits or gurus over the last few years -- guys like Mayock, etc. I'm not specifically endorsing any one in particular right now, as I'd need to do a lot more research, but these kind of guys have a public record of their player evaluations that can be reviewed over a period of years. That's a lot more than we have to go on for some assistant GM somewhere. I'm sure I'd find that they all have some hist and some misses and that hit rates are lower than most people think, but I don't think those kind of guys are inherently less knowledgeable or talented than the guys who are currently working in NFL personnel departments.
     
  30. gilv13

    gilv13 Well-Known Member

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    I won't laugh. I wouldn't want someone like Mayock as the actual GM, but if they wanted to be in charge of player personal or college scouting, it definitely would be interesting. Hell, Howie Roseman (GM of Eagles) was basically a draft geek, got his foot in the door, and worked his way up to GM. I'm not saying he's a good GM, but it's not outlandish.
     
  31. NolesNPhinsFan

    NolesNPhinsFan New Member

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    Good call FinD , Seattle is loaded!
     
  32. Phinfanjt

    Phinfanjt New Member

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    If that's your short list I'd love to read the long one. Two of those guys have jobs and the other has no coaching experience.
     
  33. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    My friend is a niner fan, he said McCloughan had a drinking problem, when it started to interfere with his work, an example being when he supposedly showed up to the combine drunk, they had to let him go. He had some other personal issues as well (divorce), but the alcoholism was the key factor that cost him his job.
     
  34. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    NO. But metrics based roster construction can. and will.
     
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  35. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    Section will hire him immediately.
     
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  36. Firesole

    Firesole Season Ticket Holder

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    Jason Taylor, Zach Thomas, Surtain, Madison. You sir, are a fool. With all due respect


    Sent from my iPhone5S using Tapatalk - now Free
     
  37. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Of course it can. It has for years. In baseball, "moneyball" came about because there was no salary cap but poorer small market teams had to find out a way to get the most bang for their buck in order to compete with the big spenders. With a salary cap, it has always been important to be able to identify both talent and value. Scouts, GMs and talent evaluators have always looked at stats. In the past it was more limited to the basic stats like yards, TDs, ypc, completion %, etc. Now there are so many more useful advanced stats. It is just a matter of knowing what the stat shows and what it doesn't show and an understanding of the reasons for the production that the stats reflect.
     
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  38. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Type in Scot McCloughan into Google and the first suggestion is "Scot McCloughan Alcohol."

    Lol.

    As for McCloughan, his first few drafts were good (05 he missed on Rodgers but got Gore), 06-07 were spectacular, but his drafts after being appointed GM of the 49ers were not so impressive. He now has some weird arrangement with the Seahawks. Hell I think he's still in the Bay Area or something. As a GM he withered. And drank. It got to him.

    McCloughan + Schneider is what's getting it done in Seattle I believe. Scot McCloughan by himself probably wouldn't work out too well. Plus, their philosophy is somewhat similar to the Parcells philosophy we all hear is outdated. Schneider flat out says they like size and so does McCloughan. I think their corners are some of the biggest in the league? He says he made an exception for QB but that is it. They want big, strong, brutish.
     
  39. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    First and foremost, get me a guy who has experience on a team or in a system that we'd like to use as a template b/c we've seen with Ireland that the ability to identify talent alone doesn't suffice if you lack the requisite vision to put it all together, including the hiring of an appropriate coaching staff capable of getting the most from its players and the ability to best fit the scheme to the players.

    So I'd say narrow the GM search to the type of template we want based on our current roster and then build a list of candidates from that.
    IMO our closest fit are the Seahawks, so I'd start in Seattle or look for a defensive minded GM who knows how to take a good defense over the top while assembling an offense that effectively compliments it [at least until Tannehill or whomever emerges as an elite QB capable of carrying a team]. An emphasis on offensive playmakers would be a welcomed plus.

    Then from there grab a talent evaluator with prior success finding the type of players who best fit the template. I'd actually consider Ireland for this but he won't be in Miami if he's canned as GM.
     
  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    To some degree I think it's possible considering much of the game is situational. Running backs who are adept at gaining positive [4+] yards on 1st down lead to more manageable 2nd & 3rd downs.... which allows for pass catchers who are situationally more adept at converting 2nd/3rd & manageable or for the running back who excels at situationally converting 2nd/3rd and short.... which leads to sustained drives..... which leads to more redzone opportunities.... and from there you have the running back capable of situationally converting near the goal line.... and you have a few redzone guys [like Detroit's Joseph Fauria, 5 TDs] who are situationally more capable of converting in a compressed field where the coverage is tighter and the back of the endzone is acting as the 12th man.

    Off the top of my head:

    • Eddie Lacy is a great situational back b/c he can get you the 4+ yards on 1st down, move the chains on 3rd & short, and punch it in on the goal line.
    • Jordy Nelson is a solid situation receiver b/c he can reliably move the chains AND contribute in the redzone.
    • A backup TE like Fauria for the redzone.
    • Brandon Gibson in the slot to efficiently move the chains on 3rd down.
    • A change of pace back like Sproles or Ellington who can convert 3rd downs out of the backfield, score on dump offs inside the redzone, and pass protect.
    • A dual threat TE like Martellus Bennett who can block AND catch to help convert 3rd & short in the ground game, convert 3rds in the passing game, and offer a redzone target.
    • A center/guard or guard/tackle tandem capable of pushing the pile in short yardage and goal line.
    Obviously there are stronger examples than the players above [like Gronkowski at TE and Harvin or Cobb in the slot], but if you're looking at a realistic cast suitable for "money ball" type stuff, then that's not a bad way to go. To me it seems Ireland & Philbin/Sherman are more preoccupied with scheme and play-calling being most responsible for offensive success rather than paying attention to situational play.
     
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