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Barry Jackson sports buzz: new chatter says Dolphins knew about Martin's issues

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LBsFinest, Nov 13, 2013.

  1. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    Might this news be related to what's been reported in the Club forum?

    http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sports-buzz/2013/11/more-buzz-on-incognitomartin-scandal-and-fins-hazing-fins-heat-canes-notes.html


     
    Itsdahumidity and dolfan22 like this.
  2. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Where there is smoke...there is fire.

    Honestly....I mean logically. How COULDNT these guys know. For one thing...players dont just you know...go AWOL for no reason.
     
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  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Howie Long sounds like he's been told exactly what Richie Incognito's father said during his rants. When Howie says, "as major as you can get"...he's referring to suicide attempts.

    I know nothing about the validity of Richard Incognito Sr's claims with respect to suicide attempts. I'm just saying that it sounds like Howie has also heard the same. Maybe his source is from Incognito's side.
     
  4. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Isn't part of the process at the combine a psych eval of some kind? Shouldn't Ireland and company have gotten a better picture of Martin's make-up at that point? It's become alarmingly clear that this guy should never have been drafted.
     
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  5. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    Which makes the whole hazing thing more inexcusable particularly because Incognito was not restrained from making things worse.

    BTW there is more that has not been revealed yet.
     
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  6. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I think at this point....Im wondering how much it really matters.

    I think the overall perception, and logically so, is one of two things.

    A) Either they knew....in which case, they will be let go.
    B) They should have known....in which case, they will be let go.
     
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  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    See, people are going to mash all this together and keep saying the dolphins should have known this or that was going to happen.

    Let's say they knew Martin was depressed. Let's say he did try suicide and they knew about that as well. Those two things have nothing to do with the Incognito issue.

    If they saw Incognito paling around with Martin and Martin carrying on with the pranks and laughing and having a good time, then they probably reasonably thought that he was fitting in and possibly overcoming his depression.

    If this news is about his depression, then it certainly points not to Ritchie, but to him being demoted then benched that set him off.
     
  8. Dolfan330

    Dolfan330 My wein is so chaffed...

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    What does this have to do with Richie and "harrassment"? I understand that the NFL is unlike regular professions, but its not the team's responsibility to provide Martin any kind of treatment or counseling. That falls on Martin. I'm no expert on privacy of medical conditions, but if he does have some kind of emotional imbalance issues can management not disclose that information to other players on the team?
     
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  9. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    This is what will ultimately get Joe Philbin. I speculated that when the two met back in the spring, Jonathan Martin mentioned something to Joe about his "emotional" issues after missing two days of OTAs. I stated that if that were the case, then what should have been done BACK THEN was to arrange counseling for the player to help him through this. That didn't happen. Instead, it is speculated that the coaching staff decided that he needed to be "toughened up". If there is any truth to this whatsoever, Joe Philbin is dead in the water as a head coach in the NFL, perhaps as a coach period.
     
  10. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    No. HIPPA laws prevent the disclosure of any medical issues, including psychological issues, without consent of the the patient.
     
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  11. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If J-Mart had attempted or contemplated suicide and it was known by the team, don't you think it would also have been known by his family? And if it was known by his family, shouldn't they have sought counseling for him? Forget the locker room environment, why would he be allowed to continue in an extremely high pressure job that is publicly critiqued on a weekly basis.
     
  12. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The Dolphins would not be obligated to inform his family if he didn't wish it.
     
  13. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    You're assuming that Martin was at the same level of stress in college that he's been under since coming to the NFL. His inability to cope with stress may have only been pushed to the extreme after being drafted and put into the situation where he could no longer excel
     
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  14. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree but I can't believe if it was known to be serious emotional issues, that Philbin would be so quick to dismiss it. Remember his son's death was intially rumored to be a suicide.
     
  15. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    There's so much grey area. We don't know what Martin was feeling or what exactly he told Philbin. I highly doubt Martin told Philbin he was clinically depressed and tried committing suicide and Philbin's response was to have someone like Richie Incognito "toughen him up". Not only does that go against Philbin's character but you'd have to be borderline mental to not take serious action in that case. And don't forget Philbin lost a son not too long ago.

    Joe Philbin has faults, but he is a high-character guy. There's no way I'd believe he would do something like that.
     
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  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Two of the primary questions Ted Wells will seek to answer stuck out at me.

    One asked whether the Dolphins knew of any mental issues with Jonathan Martin before the bullying and what steps if any did they take protect him. The other asks why nobody reached out to Martin after he left the team.

    Those seemed like loaded questions to me. I'm having trouble finding the questions now though. Can anyone help?
     
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  17. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Seems like this keeps getting worse and worse. Members here hinting it will definitely get worse. Going through all the permutations of what could be worse, what's been whispered about, etc. I can only reach one conclusion:

    Martin is most likely gay, was being harassed about it, coaches knew. That would be the most heinous thing I could think of. If he was being bullied because of his sexual orientation with coaches and/or front office knowing.
     
  18. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's true but I'm pretty sure suicide attempts need to be reported to the police. So unless this organization is so dysfunctional that they would try and cover a suicidal player, this thing would have blown up last spring.
     
  19. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    With what he went through with his son, it is possible that this is simply something Joe doesn't deal well with, and he let it go. I can see a situation where Jonathan starts talking about it, and Joe zones out thinking about his son, all the while not hearing a thing Jonathan Martin says.
     
  20. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Multiple people reached out to Martin after he left, including Joe Philbin who visited him at the hospital.
     
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  21. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Didn't Ross say that he texted Martin but that Martin didn't respond until after a few attempts?
     
  22. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Why the police?

    The only thing you are obligated to do in this case is to refer him to the mental health facility to get treatment. If I see a patient in the clinic who is having suicidal thoughts, I don't call the police. I call the on call psychiatrist at the mental health facility and get him admitted. I can actually get a 72 hour hold put on people who are suicidal but aren't willing to go to inpatient therapy.
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Here's some stuff I found:

    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer...nfl-investigation-will-be-sweeping-exhaustive

    The questions highlighted scream to me, you're screwed. In some ways, the questions speak of evidence already in the investigators' possession, as well as conclusions that may have already been drawn.
     
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  24. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    if they should have known, what could they have done besides recommending he get counseling? I don't think they could have gotten him institutionalized, and hipaa laws would have prevented them from telling his co workers.
     
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  25. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That hospital visit happened waaaay after the fact.

    In Jason La Canfora's article he mentions specifically that investigators want to know why almost no effort was made to reach out to Jonathan Martin and resolve the issues until they received the explosive voicemails/texts which led them to immediately ask the NFL head office to step in.
     
  26. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    I'm 95% sure Philbin said he visited Martin the same day he walked out. I know Ryan Tannehill also said he called him that same day too. Incognito as well.

    There's a ton of information out there, some have already been confirmed or debunked. Who knows what to think anymore. I still don't think Martin is all that innocent in all this.
     
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  27. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Do you really think Philbin is that much of a flake?
     
  28. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    on another note how extensive are the psycho profiles during draft time? Most depressed people I've known are reluctant initially to talk about it. So, depending on that, I could see it not coming out on draft day.
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Philbin met with Jonathan Martin that evening. Martin had an episode in the cafeteria and coaches excused him from practice following it, then that night Philbin met with him. Then Martin went to California and all that week it appears investigators seem convinced that there were little to no attempts to reach out to Martin or his representatives. Philbin claimed otherwise, saying he was in contact with Martin "throughout the week", but the statement was sufficiently vague that for all we know he's referring to one phone call in which he had his mom take a message for him, or some such.

    The investigators are not concerning themselves with players and whether they texted the player. They want to know what involvement the TEAM had or did not have.
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's the biggest sham of this is going off those personality tests. Jonathan Martin is a smart guy. A Stanford-educated guy. He knows what the NFL wants to hear. That's how that one independent personality testing service ended up passing Martin with flying colors saying he has the ideal personality to fit into the locker room and would in fact be known as an "enforcer".

    I'm sure it didn't even take other players a month practicing with Martin before they could have read that report and been like, "say what?!?" Murtha seemed to indicate it took a matter of days.
     
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  31. NUGap

    NUGap Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here's another thing that sticks out to me from a legal perspective. Keep in mind while I'm writing this, I'm not a lawyer nor have any legal experience. The Americans with Disabilities Act (1990) is pretty vague, but this passage sticks out to me:

    Assuming Martin sat down with Philbin during OTAs and told him he had emotional issues and needed time off (when he left the team), I think that's where we get tricky. From what I understand, this passage applies to giving employees time off to deal with any hardship from dealing with a mental illness. To me the problem comes for the Dolphins (outside of the harassment) if Philbin explicitly knew he was taking time off during OTAs and the coaching staff still had members of the team 'influence' him to come back. That to me would seem to be in legal opposition to the passage I posted above.

    A lot of it depends on the timeline and what Philbin/ the coaching staff knew or didn't know. But it's possible they could be in violation of this. There has to be at least one attorney here that can chime in on this.
     
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  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Thank you for bringing up the exact language. I saw Dolfan330's post and the ADA stood out to me as essentially saying yes you do have to make accomodations for a guy if he has emotional issues. I just couldn't quote it.
     
  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Wouldn't those mental limitations have to be officially diagnosed? Otherwise, you could walk in to your boss and just say you were depressed and get time off with out an issue.
     
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  34. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    According to Dan Le Batard, Joe Philbin has personally visited Martin three times since he left, and he paid out of his own pocket to fly Martin's parents in when Martin initially checked in to whatever facility he went to.
     
  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    How many times are we going to get screwed by the media before we learn?
     
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  36. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Can somebody answer me this honestly? Because it is my biggest nightmare.

    Lets say the Wells Report comes back bad, Miami FO knew about it and did nothing, he was bullied etc...you know worst case scenario...

    Can Goodell take draft picks at that point? I mean Ross will get fined but I don't care about that...but the draft picks being lost would devastate me I think....

    Thoughts?
     
  37. NUGap

    NUGap Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is per the EEOC website on "reasonable accommodation" (http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/accommodation.html)

    However if you read the entire passage, if an employer chooses to ask for this documentation that's their choice - but if they take an employee's word for it then it's not any less legal or official. The passage above is only applicable if the disability is not obvious (which it wouldn't be for depression)'

    Here's the text of the entire ADA by the way: http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/ada.cfm
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    He visited him in California?

    Keep in mind what they're talking about here. There's a timeline. Martin had an incident in the cafeteria and was excused from practice. Martin and Philbin met that night (Monday) and as a result of that meeting Martin left the team and went to California. About six days later (Sunday) the Dolphins received allegations of misconduct by players on the team and the evidence included was the voicemail transcript and some text messages. At that point the Dolphins contacted the NFL and asked for an independent investigation. Everything the Dolphins did from that point on was with the knowledge that an investigation was going to occur.

    The investigators are focusing on the six days. They SEEM to think that very few attempts were made by the team to reach out to Martin or his representatives during those six days. Either you have evidence to refute this, or not...but Joe Philbin visiting him in the hospital is not relevant to that six days. It happened after. Nor is Philbin's flying his family in. If you have anything to suggest that the Dolphins did reach out to Martin during those six days, by all means. I have no dog in this. I'm just reading the tea leaves set out by the investigators who seem to have their minds at least partially made up on a specific issue.
     
  39. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yes. And he probably will, as a message sent to the rest of the league that they need to be aware of this stuff and proactively avoid it.
     
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  40. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Goodell can absolutely take draft picks away from us. He can also use that as leverage to make Ross do what he wants, like cleaning house so that everyone responsible for this goes away. Chris Mortensen hinted strongly that the league office wants to see major change in Miami.
     
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