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Does Tannehill REALLY struggle with deep passes?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by phintasmic, Nov 20, 2013.

  1. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    Great point.

    Great write up too CK. I think I have a greater appreciation for the complexity of the situation now. Not just as simple as "he underthrew him!"

    Ultimately, I think a lot of this just comes down to trust and chemistry. And, it's just not there yet with Tanny and Wallace. Tanny and Hartline is a whole different story. Why is that? Because Tanny trusts Hartline will fight for the ball. Wallace not so much. And because Tanny and Hartline are more on the same page in terms of routes and hot reads.
     
  2. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Exactly, I should not be surprised, but still am, that people do not understand the Qb makes the Wr, Marshall is having no problems in Chicago, yet here it was "he dropped to many passes".
     
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  3. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    People claiming the lack of "trust" or "chemistry" is the reason RT is under throwing Wallace is baffling to me.

    If he was overthrowing him then I would maybe buy the lack of trust claim.

    Our young QB can fix this issue IMO, especially once the OL is intact and he can attempt those deep balls a few times a game. He will improve I have no doubts.
     
  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Other thing as well Fin-O, is this staff generally tries to win via deception not via skill v skill.

    Meaning Wallace is not seeing the deep down the field targets he'd be seeing in Pitt, heck, to me it's the reason why they let Bush walk imo
     
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  5. I do not think THill underthrowing a route is because he does not trust Wallace but I do think the amount of targets and to a lesser extent ball placement is tied to how much THill trusts Wallace. If THill is not confident in being able to predict where he thinks Wallace is going to be at a given moment it is going to effect his decision of throwing it his way and even perhaps a slight hesitation in that process can lead to an underthrowm ball sometimes. I think THill likes BLine cause he is comfortable knowing when he is looking for the ball to be delivered to him. BLine also has better hands so he is a more reliable completion. If I am doing the play cvalling I am going to likit my attempts to Wallace because of the low success rate. I do think it is an issue that will work itself out.
     
  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Consistency on the Deep ball takes feel and instincts, and a relaxed inner tempo, I don't believe the game has slowed enough for Ryan yet, so not being consistent in that dept doesn't suprise me, what I'm trying to figure out is how much is due to a crap protecting oline he doesn't trust or how much is On Ryan.
     
  7. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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  8. Phinatic74

    Phinatic74 New Member

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  9. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Multi-million dollar question right there. Magic 8-ball says the results are inconclusive.

    I'm starting to heavily lean toward taking a passer early in the draft if we get a shot at a good one. I know we have needs, but QB trumps all by a wide margin, and Tannehill is not making me feel comfortable.
     
  10. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    tannehill.played a good gwme today imo. connects on two deep balls abd we still rip him. give it a rest
     
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  11. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes. He struggles.
     
  12. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Yes. Both TDs Wallace had to wait for the ball. Also overthrew a wide open Wallace. What was a very good day for Wallace should have been a HUGE outing. I'm a Tannehill believer, but to pretend he isn't struggling on deep throws is ignoring the obvious at this point.
     
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  13. NUGap

    NUGap Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't know why people get upset when QBs don't hit 40+ yard passes every time. It's a low percentage pass. You expect to only hit it 30% of the time. It's like getting pissed if a basketball player isn't hitting every 3pt shot. Yeah some guys are Ray Allen and hit 40% and some guys are like Dwyane Wade and only shoot 29%.

    In basketball people are ok with that. That's why basketball statisticians coined Effective Field Goal percentage, which rewards you for hitting 3pt shots. The value is higher (as is a 40+ yard pass) but it's harder to hit. I don't know why that's so hard to understand with these long bombs from Tannehill.
     
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  14. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    The Dolphins offense scored one TD today. They scored zero points in the second half. While Tannehill may have passed for over 300 yards, he still had a bad game because the offense wasn't productive, especially in the second half. It is the job of the QB to lead his team on the field and to produce points on the scoreboard. Tannehill just hasn't proved that he can get the job done when the game is on the line.

    The reality is that the Dolphins have failed to score a TD in the fourth quarter in six consecutive games. Tannehill certainly isn't the only problem on this team, but he is also not part of the solution when the game needs to be won in the fourth quarter.
     
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  15. phintasmic

    phintasmic Banned

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    Thank you for being smart.
     
  16. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Right. And Dwayne wade isn't a good 3 point shooter. So was that your point? Pointing out some aren't as good as other? Like Tannehill isn't as good as most with the deep ball...
     
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  17. NUGap

    NUGap Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The point was twofold.

    1. People don't think Wade is a bad player because he's a bad three point shooter. Many here and among Dolphins fans seem to intimate that Tannehill will never progress or be the future of the Dolphins without a prolific deep ball. The point I was illustrating is that one deficient characteristic doesn't necessarily make a bust.

    2. Wade averages 1.8 three pointers per game in his career. He doesn't take a lot of shots because he knows that it's not his most efficient play, but when he does it's usually a good shot. Tannehill was actually very efficient with his throws today, if I'm not wrong he was 2/6 on long balls with one drop - so let's effectively make it 3/6. That's an efficient performance.

    Tannehill took good shots today and CK pretty clearly laid out in this article/posts that Tannehill's deep ball ability isn't abnormal for the league. So why are we lamenting his overthrow or other misses today? Even Ray Allen misses open 3s. Tannehill is going to miss some deep balls straight up. It's an inefficient play with a good reward for when it works.
     
  18. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Of the deep balls thrown to Wallace..

    -great adjustment by Wallace for a TD
    - another great adjustment and catch by Wallace that should have been a TD. Wallace was wide open
    - I like how Tanny lays it out, Wallace looks a little Hartlinish in his attempt
    - somehow Wallace gets behind the a panther Saftey, Tanny leads him to the left side of the end zone and we win, instead throws a ball in the middle that Wallace almost made a great play on.
     
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  19. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    tannehill was blasted he really could not step into the throw. wallace needs to make that catch.
     
  20. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I won't argue that Wallace could have made the catch, but he certainly isn't the reason the Dolphins lost the game today. If Tannehill had hit Wallace when he was 5 yards behind the defense in the second half, Wallace wouldn't have had to make that catch to win the game with a few seconds left. Wallace also made great catches on the two earlier throws from Tannehill which were under thrown.

    If Tannehill had been more productive in the second half and the defense could actually play four quarters, the game wouldn't have come down to the last few seconds in the first place. I haven't been happy with Wallace's contributions for most of this season, but he certainly isn't the reason the Dolphins failed to win the game today. In fact without Wallace today, I doubt if the Dolphins would have scored more than six points in the game.
     
  21. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    If he would've thrown the ball earlier then he wouldn't have been blasted.
     
  22. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    everythings tannehills fault. everything.
     
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  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'll move this discussion into this thread.

    Bottom line, as I say over and over again, DETAILS MATTER. I can't say it any simpler than that.

    The first deep shot to Wallace, the one he scored a touchdown on, the reason Wallace scored a touchdown there is because he finally located and adjusted to the football in a way that he had not been doing either in Miami or Pittsburgh the last two seasons. He does it sometimes, does not do it most of the time. That time he did it. The ball was slightly underthrown but the distance (about 54 yards) would have pushed ANY quarterback to their utmost limit while rolling to their right side. It was a fantastic throw and a fantastic catch and that produced a fantastic result.

    The second deep shot, I say to anyone who claims this was underthrown, YOU try it. The distance was about 60 yards. Perhaps even further. I also say something else to people who claim this was an underthrow. Track over 500 distances and speeds for intermediate-to-deep passes across college and the NFL among strong-armed quarterbacks and tell me how often you see a ball go 60+ yards measured in a straight line. Go ahead. I'll wait. Bottom line, it's a RARE throw. One I've only seen a handful of times and I track a lot of this sh-t among the STRONGEST arms in the business. The throw pushed Tannehill to his absolute limit. It would have pushed almost any quarterback to his absolute limit.

    Why was it an underthrow then? Because AGAIN the route did not match the backfield timing. Wallace's "out and up" on the play was a hell of a lot more "up" than "out". I'm not blaming Wallace, I think he's coached to run the route that way. Meanwhile in the backfield there's another play-fake. Not just ANY play-fake, a play-fake from under center. A half-roll. The play proceeded exactly as coach but a 60 yard pass still didn't cut the mustard. Ask yourself, why is that? Because the play design does not account for Wallace's speed.

    I told you guys this before when Mike Sherman offered his reaction to the San Diego underthrow. He said it was an underthrow. He didn't say anything about the timing of the play. I said that told me right there two things. One, Tannehill and Wallace are not being coached to run their routes and adjust the drop in the backfield to get their timing right, and TWO, they WILL mis-match the backfield timing with Wallace's route again. Sure enough, they did. Hate to say I told ya so, but I told ya so.

    The third ball, an overthrow. Guess what though. Tannehill has been taking crap including from his own coaches all week about underthrows to Wallace. He's been instructed to "let it rip". A one yard overthrow is an incomplete pass. A one yard underthrow is not only complete, but if the receiver tracks and adjusts to the football properly you might not even recognize it as an underthrow. You instruct the quarterback to "let it rip" because suddenly you hate underthrows more than overthrows, you're going to get overthrows. That will happen.

    I hear stuff about wrong shoulder or "ball placement" and all I can do is shake my head. There's no such thing as "ball placement" on a 150 to 180 foot throw. There really isn't. You're asking the guy throw into a target area. You're not asking him to bull's eye the thing. That's what you pay the receiver for, to see the ball in the air, adjust to it properly, play off the defensive back and finish the catch. If you just want a person that runs fast and can be taught to catch a perfectly thrown football then go buy Christine Ohuruogu and pay her a bunch of money. I prefer to give my money to football players that play football the right way.
     
  24. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    I'm just curious. Did Dolphins fans see Cam Newton underthrow Ted Ginn Jr. on a much shorter throw than Tannehill made?
     
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  25. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    He did, but he still ended up making more plays than Tannehill.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Or did they see Ben Rapistberger score a touchdown pass on a deep underthrow to Antonio Brown?
     
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  27. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Cam Newton isn't a Miami Dolphin, or an exceptional passer....what's the point?
     
  28. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    The point should be obvious. The fact is, the large majority of down field throws are under thrown, and all this criticism of Ryan Tannehill is utter nonsense by and large. He needs more consistency, but he's a 2nd year quarterback who is being asked to do more than any other quarterback in his class right now. He has no blocking, no running game, and no receivers that can go up and get the ball.
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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  30. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    I agree for the most part, but mixing in a ball that hits Wallace in stride would be nice.

    But your right, the blocking/ supporting cast plays a big part in it.
     
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  31. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    All interesting stuff, but the bottom line seems to be that Tannehill isn't very proficient at throwing the deep ball. I would suggest that Wallace take a break from his pre-game rituals and catch a few from RT to get in sync. Both deep balls that were dropped were catchable or nearly catchable- at the same time the 1st one was no gimmee and Wallace did make the catch.

    Stats are fine, but at the end of the day you can watch the film and judge for yourself if Tannehill is throwing a good deep ball or not. In my opinion, he is not. Even if the sample size of deep balls from RT to Wallace is small, those are important, potentially game changing throws. Both of them are being paid a lot of money to do it RIGHT. Wallace could certainly adjust better to some throws- wtf with the bomb at the end of the game, wasn't that chatchable?- but at the same time excuses for Tannehill ring hollow to me- when he's setting and throwing deep that is not very high quality product that he's cerating. As to rolling out- work on it. All of this is doable- long throws indeed, but he has the arm strength and this is the NFL, not some junior college. Tannehill starts for a reason. Wallace was paid a boatload of money to come here for a reason. 4 deep throws to Wallace, 2 completions. Should have been 4. 3 would have won the game.
     
  32. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    So if I go to NFL.com and find a throw of Mike Glennon hitting Underwood in stride, what would that prove?
     
  33. Pro-X

    Pro-X End Game Club Member

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    I got to ask has any QB (Big Ben) ever hit a receiver as fast as Wallace is, in "stride"? I remember when Moss played Culpepper always under threw him, also Moss was able to adjust and jump for the ball, where Wallace doesn't. (just using Moss as an example)
     
  34. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with KB n CK but what's curious to me is all this talk of had RT made 1 more play we win. I say to that possibly so, but I counter with 1 definite play that had it been made we win, that stop Car from getting 10 yards on 4th and 10.
     
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  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Never boils down to just one play and you're absolutely correct. Stop him on 4th & 10 and tomorrow is Victory Monday.
     
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  36. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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  37. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly it an accumulation of plays and you can always point to 1 play here 1 play there.
     
  38. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    bollocks. That's not close to the same thing.
    First off, Antonio Brown's was a 45 yard pass thrown diagonally to him, so all Brown had to do was turn slightly back to it, and the diagonal nature of the throw makes it easier to gauge. That's not on the same receiving planet as what Wallace faced.

    On that last throw you could draw a straight line down the left hash mark connecting Tannehill, Wallace, and the pass, meaning the flight of the ball was in direct line with Wallace's path, and anyone who knows anything about catching [be it an outfielder or receiver] knows it's tougher to gauge a ball coming right at them. Instead of Tannehill erring to caution and targeting a yard or two to the left to give Wallace a chance to track it from right to left for an easier reception w/o taking his eyes off the ball, he fired it directly at Wallace, and since he fired it directly at him it left no room for error to the right, so even though his throw was off by shoestring it caused Wallace to pirouette and thus making catch attempt incredibly difficult. Like I said, you're acting sanctimoniously by trying to pardon Tannehill's throw but lay blame on the receiver who couldn't come down with what might be the toughest throw in the NFL to convert.
     
  39. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Completely untrue. At the point Tannehill threw the football Wallace was on the right hash mark and Tannehill threw a ball with final destination at the left hash mark. He led him exactly as you want but Wallace adjusted to the football poorly. I never said it would have been an easy play for Wallace. Quite the opposite. Fact of the matter is you still have the wrong read of the play.

    And besides, when I'm pointing out Big Rape's UNDER throw, I'm obviously more directly referring to peoples' complaints about Tannehill's "underthrow" (using the term sarcastically) on the 57-yard bomb to Mike Wallace.
     
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  40. rtl1334

    rtl1334 New Member

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    I want someone to explain why when Wallace is running a deep post that looks over his right shoulder.

    Had he just stayed on track and tracked the ball over his left shoulder, he makes the catch.

    I think Wallace looking over his right shoulder threw everybody off and thus the assignment of blame to Tannehill. I can't fault him for Wallace' inability to track the ball in the air.
     

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