I'm not really talking about dead sprints, more in the way of a typical WR/QB warmup which RT and MW apparently don't do.
LOL, because it's impossible to have success, and have one bad game. The guy was a 7th round pick who was on the bubble to make the team this year. Since Gibson got hurt, he's been a very solid contributor. He had 11 receptions in a game. That is success any way you slice it. Unless they somehow changed the definition of success and I didn't know about it.
Bad Example......Retired Female Softball Pitchers throw HARD AS HELL. Jenny Finch currently throws 67 mph which is the equivalent of a 98 mph Fastball in baseball.
This is a pretty interesting article from Salguero imo: Some things are so obvious even the secretive men inside Stalag Dolphin have to admit to them. And the difficulty the entire NFL has witnessed Ryan Tannehill have throwing the deep ball since he joined the Miami Dolphins is one of those things. "Yes, I think I just get conservative," Tannehill admitted. "You see a guy, like I said with so much space and separation between him and the defender, he had five yards or something on the guy. You see that space and you're thinking just get him the ball. Instead of, just throw it out there, play football and let it rip." You have to consider that Wallace averaged eight touchdowns per season and 17.5 yards per reception his four seasons in Pittsburgh. In Miami he's basically been turned into a possession receiver who has one touchdown and is averaging 12.1 yard per catch. But in Pittsburgh, Wallace played with a quarterback in Ben Roethlisberger who completed at least 33.3 percent of his passes on throws of 41 yards or more the past three years and in 2009 completed a whopping 46.2 percent of such passes. Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolp...how-he-attacks-deep-throws.html#storylink=cpy
There's any number of these deep balls to Wallace from big Ben on youtube, and obviously the good throws are getting their own clips: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twz6SH0ylpk And as to Wallace fighting for/positioning himself for the ball: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6vaR0nobrU From what I've seen over the last 5 years of football big Ben has a WAY better deep ball, especially as far as Wallace is concerned. Then again, I do think that RT can throw the deep ball and this is his first year with Wallace. Also, you have to factor in Ben's ability to buy time and shake off tacklers/avoid sacks. Some of the best I've ever seen, and actually Cam Newton looke a little like Ben last week in that regard. They can both improve, but I'm still thinking that the deep ball issues are more on RT than Wallace at this point.
So, I'm curious with what happened in Pittsburgh with Roethlisberger that caused his numbers to drop in 2012? What Armando doesn't cite there is the fact that Mike Wallace is simply doing right now what he did in Pittsburgh last year when their offense changed to more of a timing based, precision passing game rather than the style Bruce Arians ran which was to have Big Ben load up and throw it a long way with little regard to timing. I mean, at some point we are just going to have to realize that we seriously overpayed for a limited receiver here. We run an offense that is predicated on the receivers being at the right spot at the right time on every pass play, and we have a $60 million receiver that isn't at the right spot at the right time on every play. I mean, we are asking our young quarterback to be perfect, but we are accepting lackidasical effort and routes from our high priced receiver. From my point of view, if Ryan Tannehill has to be perfect on those throws, then Mike Wallace needs to be perfect on his routes. Joe will talk about Ryan publicly because he knows Ryan can handle it. He doesn't talk about Mike's route deficiencies though, because he knows Mike will go into a shell with any criticism.
This is spot on and part of my frustration with reading this board...so many posters completely disregard our offensive system when discussing this Tannehill/Wallace issue. Wallace is such a misfit in this offense that you have to really wonder if the coaching staff was onboard with this acquisition. Neophyte - this is how Philbin described Clyde Gates' route running. How would Philbin describe Wallace' route running? It also gives you some insight into what Philbin values in WRs. What amazes me is that there was a perfect fit for this scheme available in FA and we didn't even entertain him...why? Quite honestly, I would entertain more criticism of Tannehill if Wallace could run something other than a go-route, a slant and a 10 yard curl. You think NFL DBs are not aware of this player's limitations?
Sure it's a timing based passing offense, but aren't we talking about straight up deep balls here? Yes Wallace is overpaid, but his speed and ability to get open deep/stretch a defense are valuable assets and should be managed better. You keep talking about Tannehill being asked to be perfect on his throws, and I don't get that. He is often underthrowing Wallace on deep balls, sometimes badly. Tannehill is being asked to make GOOD deep throws to Wallace, upgrading from the fairly crappy underthrows that he's been making with the occasional overthrow in there as well. Again, the timing and anticipation aspects- if Tannehill is failing to anticipate the deep ball and forcing himself to throw very long throws to Wallace, who's fault is that? My guess is that those deep throws should be closer to 45-50 yards in the air, not 60. Isn't than on Tannehill and not Wallace? Can we really say that as a passer Tannehill is good at timing and anticipation in his throws? I would say no at this point. Wallace has been far closer to perfect at busting open fly patterns down the sidelines and getting himself open for RT on those plays. Other receiving patterns- that's a different story. But the fly patterns? Wallace looks pretty darned good to me, although his adjustments to the ball certainly could be better. Tannehill is just not getting it done with those throws, bottom line.
Why is his anticipation not a problem with Hartline and other receivers? Ryan, in his career, has an accuracy percentage on passes 20+ yards of over 40% when throwing to Hartline and other receivers. With Wallace, it is quite a bit lower.
All good points, but we're discussing specifically the deep balls to Wallace, right? The ones he's been open on in a big way, and the results are mixed at best?
"Last year Tannehill completed zero percent of his attempts of 41 yards or more. He was 0 for 3. This year he has completed 16.7 percent of his 6 throws of 41 yards or more. That still isn't good enough, but it suggests some improvement." Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolp...how-he-attacks-deep-throws.html#storylink=cpy The eyeball test tells me that Tannehill's deep balls to Wallace just aren't good enough. RTs midrange balls to Hartline, etc have been pretty goo dfrom what I can recall, but I find him to be below average in timing/anticipating throws and leading receivers. Given how mundane and relatively unproductive our offense is, we need every weapon that we can get- Wallace has been open by YARDS multiple times, and the result has been pretty much from an incompletion to a throw that was good enough to get the job done (completion) but certainly not a great throw- and a great throw would usually have led to an easy TD because Wallace has been blowing his coverage CB out of the water on those deep routes in question. Wallace as a relatively one dimensional WR who doesn't adjust enough to the ball, isn't a good route runner and isn't particularly tough- I get that. But the deep balls where Wallace is open by a country mile? Sorry, that's on Tannehill for the most part in terms of easy TDs turning out to be less than that or nothing. I will say this- I looked at the long passes several times, that first long pass for a TD- Tannehill rolled out to the right, made a nice throw, but my initial criticism was that it was a bit underthrown and thrown to far outside as per Wallace's deep route. The ball could have been thrown sooner, deeper and more inside- more of a straight up post than a deep pattern up the sideline. Wallace did have to wait for the ball and fade his body a bit towards the sideline. I thought that Wallace did a nice job on this play. Tannehill- not a bad roll out throw but it could have been better, and sooner. Wallace had his man beat after the first 20-25 yards- be your own judge at 1:15 below: http://www.nfl.com/videos/carolina-panthers/0ap2000000286927/Week-12-Panthers-vs-Dolphins-highlights Tannehill could have let that pass fly 20 yards into the pattern- Wallace smoked a pretty good CB in Munnerlin, and smoked him early. Wallace could and should have had a MONSTER game last week against Carolina. Flawed as he may be, the dude can stretch a defense and get open deep. I think that Tannehill CAN throw good deep balls, he's been coming up short on his throws and he has to correct that. I'm fairly optimistic, I think that RT and Wallace will get in sync and burn some defenses in the coming weeks. But jeez, let's see what they can do with a little pre-game practice under their belts...
Here is another outstanding breakdown, if you remove the distain for Wallace you will "see" what I mean. http://www.thephinsider.com/2013/11...d-tannehill-connect-deep-an-in-depth-analysis
Here's a better one: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...olphins-quarterback-ryan-tannehills-deep-ball
I'm sure it is if your reading with an agenda and not an open mind. Sorry but the still shots are visual facts and the guy you love to hate is consistently WIDE OPEN, thus doing his job.
His job is to run the routes the way they are supposed to be run, adjust to the ball when he has to, and also catch the balls that hit him in the hands. That's what he is being paid $60 million to do. He's not being paid $60 million to be a decoy, but hey, this is why this team needs a new GM. He foolishly gave big money to a one trick pony.
A good article, but he does ZERO play development timing and faults Wallace not at all for poor route running, not coming back to the ball, poor sideline awareness, poor zone coverage awareness, stopping his routes, or drops... The Heck it isn't. You can't fault Tannehill during the entire article, then state that the last play, a play in which Tannehill was under duress and still launched a 70 yard pass to where Wallace was able to catch it if he had tracked it correctly and still got his hands on the ball "isn't relevant". It's only not relevant if you're one-sided in your analysis or bias. Tannehill has his issues and his faults, but he has improved in every area that people have b****** about all season. Wallace has his faults as well. Chemistry and trust between them will probably take the rest of the season and it'll probably be next season before we see them connecting like we want.
How much money he makes is moot to this discussion. He's getting open, and not being found by Ryan. Tannehill is a fine young QB and I'm confident he will fix this problem.
Its 50-50 to me really. Wallace needs to start thinking its his football and going after it. And catching it when its in his face. Tannehill needs to hit him when hes two yds wide open and green grass to the horizon. Them will be some good times if they can get there.
Really? And could perhaps numbers be manipulated to make it seem that Tannehill is throwing well over the middle with timing and anticipation? Something like "on second down and 8 situations Tannehill ranks 17th in the league in completion percentage when throwing to the middle of the field." Well, maybe Tannehill isn't really throwing with a whole lot of timing and anticipation in these situations, but some other QBs are throwing WITH timing and anticipation but WITHOUT accuracy. Maybe some receivers on other teams are dropping passes, who knows. To insist on stats in this kind of analysis to back up an opinion, sounds like a Shouright argument and can of worms to me. I would MUCH rather take the Alen 1 approach and actually review the middle of the field throws by Tannehill and judge accordingly. BTW, Tannehill might send another receiver to the hospital if he keeps on making throws like the ones in the Alen 1 clip. Keller, Gibson, who's next? This whole issue of statistical analysis- I look at it as a good tool to use, but if you rely on it primarily it might make the user a tool. Case in point- Wallace deep balls. Tannehill went deep to Wallace 4 times last week, connected twice. Wow, 50% completion rate, Tannhill must be on fire going deep to Wallace, right? What, wrong? Well yeah, if you actually LOOK at those 4 throws you see how blatantly wide open Wallace was, and how 2 of the 4 throws were just poor, one was ok and Wallace did pretty darned well to get into the endzone with it after making a nice adjustment. The last one- Wallace didn't adjust well and it could, maybe should have been a TD, but not a great throw. The point is this- a straight up stat of 50% completion rate on deep balls sounds great on paper, but having watched the throws, you can see how much meat Tannehill left on the bone. 2 lousy throws and 2 ok throws. Imo Tannehill can throw a good deep ball, he just has to get his shiznitt down with Wallace. I'm more concerned about the timing & anticipation issues that Alen 1 brought up in that excellent article of his, I think that he's spot on.
You better hope we get a new coach with a different system then if you think/want Mike Wallace to perform well. As I said earlier in the thread, he's such a poor fit for this system that he will not produce while playing in this system.
Statistical analysis is the absolute best way to evaluate things and is getting better with better stats coming out. Trusting your eyes leaves you open for bias, which is the case here against Tannehil much like it is the case for those who want to claim that Nolan Carroll has played poorly this year. You cannot overcome bias with your eyes, but stats blow bias out of the water. The only way stats are manipulated are when they are used by those that do not understand them. Unless there is subjective data to back up a point, then there is no point.
Maybe not just a poor fit for the system, but a poor fit for Tannehill as well. And as to Tannehill in this offensive system, if he struggles with timing and anticipation, how good of a fit is he? Roethlisberger throws a good deep ball and buys time exceedingly well, big help to Wallace. Wallace has seriously disapponted me at times, most notably in the Saints game. But he has been getting open deep quite a bit, and it's on Tannehill to get him the ball accurately and on time- if he's holding on to the ball too long that's on him- maybe the coaching staff as well- but I would say for the most part on him.
What does the raw statistical data of last week's deep throws to Wallace tell you? Forget what you saw, go by the stats only- how would you rate Tannehill in terms of throwing deep to Wallace? ps I'm assuming that you were referring to "objective" data in your last sentence- if I 'm wrong on that let me know so I can make sure that we're on the same page here.
That argument that Tannehill holds the ball to long has already been blown out of the water by the stats. He gets rid of the ball in less than 2.5 seconds more than all but one quarterback in the NFL. Timing and anticipation is not his problem. That's on the piss poor, neophyte route runner we are paying $60 million to. It's not Ryan's fault that in a timing based offense, Mike Wallace isn't at the same spot at the same time on every play due to his neophyte route running skills. Ryan is in his second year in the NFL and is still learning, and he has had a lot thrown on his plate as a young quarterback. He has to do more with reading coverages presnap and setting protections, and has more pressure put on him to play well to win because the team cannot run the ball at all when they need to than any of the quarterbacks that came out in his class. Really, the only quarterback drafted in the past three years that has as much responsibility is probably Andy Dalton, and he has a solid running game. I see no reason to think that Ryan can't play in multiple systems. Contrary to what those of you in this thread who have criticized him without any basis or objectivity think, Ryan Tannehill is not nearly as limited as a quarterback as Mike Wallace is as a receiver. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why Mike's production in 2012 WITH ROETHLISBERGER dropped off since his lack of production in Miami is apparently all Ryan Tannehill's fault.
Ryan threw 5 times to Mike Wallace on down the field throws and 3 were catchable. 2 were completed, and 1 was dropped. 60% accuracy rate to Wallace alone with Mike making the catch only 40% of the time. Here's the comparison with the rest of the league this past week, because some of you think making 20+ yard throws is something that is standard league wide: Matthew Stafford 8 attempts, 1 completion Colin Kaepernick 7 attempts, 4 completions Ryan Tannehill 7 attempts, 3 completions Eli Manning 7 attempts, 2 completions Carson Palmer 6 attempts, 3 completions Cam Newton 6 attempts, 0 completions Phillip Rivers 5 attempts, 2 completions Christian Ponder 5 attempts, 2 completions Kellen Clemens 5 attempts, 3 completions Tom Brady 5 attempts, 1 completion Geno Smith 4 attempts, 1 completion Joe Flacco 4 attempts, 2 completions Andrew Luck 4 attempts, 0 completions
It's silly to say ignore the facts and actual data on players and trust your lying eyes and a few cherry picked plays... lol... Accusing people who provide actual statistical data of doing so like a drunk man uses a lamp post - for support rather than illumination, is to stay in the dark yourself. Your eyes told you that Jones hit Newton out of bounds for a Personal Foul. The facts are that he did not. Your eyes told you that Tannehill missed a throw to Wallace on a Slant over the middle. The fact is that Wallace didn't run the route correctly. Your eyes told you that Tannehill missed Clay for a TD over the middle. The fact is that Clay broke his route off to shove a defender, then resumed it. The fact is that Tannehill threw a 70 yard pass that Wallace screwed up catching. Yes Tannehill has missed wide open receivers. He way overthrew a wide open Wallace. He has missed others as well. I think too many people only look at the result of a play and not the entire play itself. Tannehill is an average Deep ball passer. That's the facts. He missed some plays that he will hit in the future as he progresses and builds cognizance and chemistry with his receivers.
Didn't know that needed explained. A change in offensive coordinators and a huge discrepancy in systems. Couple that with a bad OL and things are not going to work out the same way. Big Ben and Mike Wallace were/are the same players they were the years before.
The bottom line here is that Ryan Tannehill his a building block for what this team will be in 3-4 years. Mike Wallace isn't. Mike Wallace is little more than a big contract that allows the team to get to the salary cap floor for a four year period the team will dump after the 2014 season. I don't want her running things, but Dawn Aponte was magnificent in the way she structured this contract that allows Miami to keep it from being an albatross
It has a lot more to do with the fact that Todd Haley runs a timing based passing game and Mike Wallace is a piss poor fit for a timing based passing game.
Prime example of figures lying and liars figuring. Of those QBs how many have a 4.3 WR single covered and beating the DB by 3-4 steps?? Too many variables to rely just on numbers. Trust me if stats told the whole story, statistician's would be breaking Vegas capping these games.
Stats will tell you Matt Flynn threw 6 tds in one game. The film tells you the throws were ordinary and the wrs did all of the work. If you were GM and had to pick players for an nfl team, and you could only use stats or film, which are you choosing? The two need to be used together. Stats don't tell you if a qb throws 20 jump balls a game.
I don't disagree it's a poor fit, but that doesn't mean Wallace isn't putting himself in position to make Huge plays for this offense.
