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Mike Wallace..showing signs of life?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Dec 4, 2013.

  1. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    He very likely is on track. Between 2009 and 2012, Mike Wallace caught a touchdown for every 12.7 targets. That number is completely unsustainable. Even Calvin Johnson (who caught 38 TDs between 2009 and 2012) "only" managed a TD for every 16.7 targets in that same span. Larry Fitzgerald, in his best 4 year run between 2007 and 2010 (41 TDs), managed 15.7 - and hasn't even sniffed at that percentage ever since. Andre Johnson? 17.1 between 2007 and 2010 (33 TDs) and not even close ever since.

    We were royally kidding ourselves if we genuinely believed that Mike Wallace would be able to sustain the numbers we bought in 2013. He wasn't just due an off year; he was virtually guaranteed one. No WR can sustain numbers like that.
     
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  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Your putting The blame for his production not being on par to what he accomplished in Pittsburg all on him?
     
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  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    if the staff wasn't sure how the skillset of Wallace would fit in their offense and didn't realize it was different than that's on them.not Wallace..I would bet the staff all wanted him.
     
  4. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Actually, I blame Jeff Ireland for signing him and overpaying him for what he is. Mike Wallace brings nothing to the table other than speed. It was very apparent before he was signed that he brought nothing else to the game.
     
  5. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    So why not troll Ireland threads or create your own??
     
  6. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    I don't troll. I present facts with objective data. I don't try to back up my views with subjective ideas and act like someone makes an impact by just being on the field.
     
  7. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    If that's the case, please explain why his career stats are so overwhelmingly superior to those of Clyde Gates. It's never just about speed.
     
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  8. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Calvin Johnson could have 2 catches for 20 yards tomorrow. ..and I promise you he still had an impact on his offense.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
     
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  9. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Opportunity and Ben Roethlisberger.
     
  10. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    I think that maybe the nice way to put it is that your desire to be right all of the time is stronger than your desire to think clearly and rationally.
     
  11. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    He's produced plenty of open opportunities for TDs this year. Unfortunately he's dependent upon someone getting him the ball.
    If my internet signal goes down I don't send my laptop for repair when the router is at fault.
     
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  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Maybe coach thinks he can't teach speed but can teach route running.
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    oh goodness, your not implying that, are u?
     
  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Your gonna have to put that rap on the coach..cause he had a lot to do with the decision.

    So you think Clyde gates would of scored 35 tds by the age of 26 if he played in Pitt?
     
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  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think there is a point in this where mike has to have some accountability, in order to be a great player, adjustment in ones game needs to be there, versatility, the ability to change up your game needs to be evident.if he truly wants to be known as a great player.
     
  16. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    That sounds good and all.... until you realize how many touchdowns were left on the field b/c Tannehill couldn't convert all year. Or are we all back in selective comprehension mode and so quick to forget Tannehill himself speaking of the issue?

    Here, in case anyone needs a reminder [which should not have to happen]:
    This was Nov 21, so it clearly didn't include the Jets game where 2 more wide open deep TDs were left on the field.
    If Tannehill hits just 40% of those self-admitted open Wallace opportunities then the NFL's best vertical threat would have over 1000 yards and 8+ TDs at the moment and we'd be headed to the playoffs while you whiners tug on his junk and brag about his monster season.

    It's like we've got the best fishing lure in the country but the guy casting it can't get it anywhere near the big fish, yet you people wanna blame the lure for going home empty handed. Pathetic.
     
  17. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    I think we really need to stop the silly blame game. The truth of the matter is that Mike Wallace was putting up unsustainable numbers in Pittsburgh and is now regressing towards the mean. It happens. Calvin Johnson had 5 TD seasons in 2009 and in 2012 to go along with his 16 TD and 12 TD performances in 2010 and 2011. No NFL WR can sustain a TD/target percentage of around 10. Sure, we see Ryan Tannehill missing on a couple of deep balls, and we make a mental note of how many TDs Mike Wallace should have had. But do we know how many he should have had in 2010? No, we don't. We simply assume that 2010/2011 was the mean for Mike Wallace (which it wasn't; no WR can sustain that level of production in terms of targets) and are now trying to figure out why he's not there. Try reality for an explanation.
     
  18. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Opportunity that Wallace creates and that Roethlisberger converts on. So basically you're saying what we've been saying all along- that the QB has to be able get Wallace the ball when he's open, which Ben was able to do and the slew of bums in NY are not.

    Let's try Jim's point again but changing Gates to Trindon Holliday who ran a 4.21 at Indy and is even faster than Wallace.
     
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  19. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    You would think those facts would rid of us another Wallace hater...but yet there is still one who will ignore it and continue to troll any thread possible with blind Mike Wallace sucks posts.
     
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  20. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    So pray tell: How many? And how many did Ben Roethlisberger leave on the field in 2010 and 2011? And how many does an NFL QB, on average, leave on the field each year? Do you know those numbers? No, you do not. You only know the first one, and you happily pronounce it The Cause, when in reality no NFL QB/WR tandem can consistently produce the numbers you happen to consider perfectly achievable "at the moment".

    And no, I did not forget Tannehill speaking of the issue. Oh, and you will stop calling me a whiner and/or pathetic when all I did is point out numbers and not attack any poster whatsoever.
     
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  21. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Stop whining. :shifty:
     
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  22. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    Stop blindly trolling every thread with your mindless Tannehill hate :shifty:
     
  23. Rhody Phins Fan

    Rhody Phins Fan Well-Known Member

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    I think this is the problem right now with this discussion. We simply don't know enough. We hold it against Tannehill when he misses a throw but every QB in the league misses throws. We are judging Tannehill against the perfect quarterback when we should be judging him against actual NFL quarterbacks.

    Last week there was a play where Brady had at least four seconds of an incredibly clean pocket and he still underthrew a ball to a wide open Gronk who was just able to snag it off the grass for a touchdown. That sort of thing happens.
     
  24. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    I like Tanny lots actually. Just not enough to pretend he has no flaws....like the deep ball.
     
  25. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Then explain why Wallace caught only 7 of 31 targets on deep passes in 2012. That has nothing to do with Ryan Tannehill.
     
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  26. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Exactly. Apparently, Ryan is the only quarterback in the NFL that misses on long throws. No one that continues to blame Ryan can tell me why he only caught 7 of 31 deep passes in Pittsburgh last year.
     
  27. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If the fanbase and everyone continues to put pressure on every throw you are only creating more anxiety game day..I would like to see how both players adjust to each other's skillset for more than half a season, I'd like to give Philbin some time to make Wallace a more well rounded receiver, we know mike can produce with a certain type of Qb, lets see if both mike, Ryan and the coaches can figure out how to use this skillset best..
     
  28. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    More to it, Ryan heaved it...Wallace managed to get his hands on it. Could've been a much better throw and a much better catch.

    Neither made a great play. Result was a loss.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
     
  29. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Part of the frustration for me is that it's not just RT missing open deep receivers, it's missing them regularly. These are plays that should be made, and I'm not all that concerned with comparative stats in this regard unless those stats incorporate how wide open Wallace has been on deep patterns this year. That's not something that I'm willing to gloss over, because it's a seriously important issue imo. I'd much rather see stats as to how other QBs perform in similar situations, specifically what is their success rate throwing to WIDE OPEN receivers on deep patterns? Not all situations are created equally, and these multiple references to stats showing that Tannehill is actually throwing deep balls well are wrong imo. You have to compare apples to apples as per these deep ball stats, so until I see a "wide open deep ball" passer stat I'm less than interested.

    The phinsational post, #418 I think, has something interesting in it- Tannehill actually discusses a psychological hang up with not being able to let it rip on deep passes, in part because Wallace gets wide open so often. Those who want to dump on Wallace should read that. It sounds like an issue of anxiety, fear of failure, maybe anal retention- he can't let it go. I've said it so many times before, but I do like Tannehill- I see him becoming a very good QB, but I'm not at all convinced that he'll become a great QB. That being said, it's so blatantly obvious that Tannehill is not throwing quality deep balls that I have to wonder what some posters are watching and what their criteria is. To me, a stat-based model that judges a mere completion on a deep ball that was underthrown and should have easily been a TD as a resounding success, is just wrong. That's a great play for the WR to get open deep and a bad pass from the QB. As to the incompletions on those kinds of plays- that's just plain bad throwing, and sometimes poor pass protection can be involved, of course.

    Wallace's job is to get open deep, and he's doing a pretty darned good job of it. Wallace can't throw the ball to himself- making judgments about Wallace and his productivity, especially per the deep ball, is for the most part nonsensical. If you want to get to the heart of the matter judge him by how often he gets open deep, that's a big part of his job and he's not in control of the qaulity of passes thrown to him in those situations. So does he get open deep? Yes, and he does it a lot.
     
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  30. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    A tremendous WASTE OF TIME! Not to mention the money that is being wasted.

    Mike Wallace's presence is slowing Rishard Matthews's development, as Rishard should be playing the position that Mike Wallace currently holds. In this system, Rishard Matthews will be a better player long term. He's a better route runner, has better hands, and is more physical as both a receiver and a blocker.

    Mike Wallace is in 5th season, and he still hasn't learned to run routes to precision. It's not going to happen.

    The Dolphins would be so much better off building this offense around Ryan Tannehill with Rishard and Keenan Allen as his main receivers. Oh, we overpaid for Hartline as well, but he's a better receiver than Mike Wallace. Still, I don't like Hartline long term in this offense. He doesn't have enough RAC ability.
     
  31. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    I don't think that it was nearly as easy a catch as you make it out to be, the video clip of it is somewhere in this thread. Tannehill waited WAY too long to throw it and it was a bit behind him. Wallace was able to get behind a defense with 20 seconds left in the game and his team down by 4, that's a victory in terms of him doing that part of his job. If RT does his job that's a TD- the pass is so late that RT has to throw it 65 yards in the air, and even then it is so short that Wallace has to basically stop, the DB catch up and Wallace has to adjust to the short, late pass. Even if the pass was perfectly on target, there is a simple factor involved, and that factor has become a running, damaging theme this year- Tannehill threw the ball too late. Between that and sometimes just flat out underthrowing those are two huge issues, and they're hardly Wallace's fault.
     
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  32. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    I think most of us know how a zone works but I'm betting you Reed knew exactly where he was heading from the snap. The second sequence proves it. Wallace is not the first person up field yet Reed is ingnoring that and heading towards him to help Cromarite
     
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  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No one was tooting Keenan Allen's horn more than me predraft, but we had cap space and we needed a weapon in free agency,..Jennings or Wallace...coach made the call, so your gonna have to blame him...Rishard Matthews is a Miami dolphin so no need to stress there, that's a good pick and that's a good thing..you have a conviction that it's all a big mistake, well, I can't say your wrong at this point, to early to judge for me.
     
  34. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    WHAT?! If you think Roethlisberger left 95% of his Wallace downfield TD opportunities on the field then you clearly don't watch football. You ignorantly act like Tannehill connected much of the year and that myself and others are just nitpicking, when the truth is you're trying to rationalize a QB missing the massive majority. Do you know how foolish that sounds?

    Nice straw argument. I said 40% for a reason, yet you argue as if I said 85%. If you think an NFL QB shouldn't be capable of converting 40% of his open downfield attempts to a competent vertical threat then you're as confused as a horny blind man in a fish market. You act like the goddam football is covered in tacks and broken glass or something. Tannehill stated his current downfield conversion rate is unacceptable, yet you persist with this crap as if you think it's the norm.

    I said "whiners"... with an s. And you certainly aren't doing a good job with this post of disproving the pathetic comment.
     
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  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You can see the trajectory of his angle relative to where Clay is he's going over to cover for his corner being beat..on both plays.
     
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  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Some are saying that while the throw was great, he could of gotten to his platform and set up quicker...whatta you think, I'd have to look at it again, I do know that Wallace plays the ball wrong in the air.
     
  37. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    So am I to believe a QB who has struggled to hit a wide open WR 20 yards away consistently, put it right where HE wanted to on a play 3x farther away??

    He heaved the ball to the middle wich admirably gave Wallace a fighting chance, credit to him for that. But by no means do I believe he threw the ball where he wanted too.
     
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  38. Fin-Omenal

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    It could've been a much better throw. To the left pylon and we have a TD, but I'm not blaming Ryan for not making that throw. Due to the circumstances it was very difficult, as was the catch.
     
  39. Fin-Omenal

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    I never said it was a bad throw, I simply do not think it was a great throw.
     
  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    You've gotta be kidding. Firstly, that takes into account ALL deep targets, not just the ones that Wallace is wide open on [which is what we're talking about]. So if you wanna speak pertinently, show the stats of how often Roethlisberger missed an open Wallace. Secondly, 4 of those 7 downfield catches went for TDs, so I'm not sure your point b/c that's a 400% higher TD rate than Tannehill.

    From 2009-12, 22 downfield Wallace passes went for TDs. Tannehill has ONE. It has EVERYTHING to do with Tannehill, and you continue to ignore the fact that Tannehill has disappointingly mentioned missing a wide open Wallace all year long.
     
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