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BUILD MIAMI's 2014 starting Offensive Line.....Let's see what you can do!

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by vt_dolfan, Dec 20, 2013.

  1. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I think after 2013, if you never realized the importance of an offensive line, you do now. In my opinion, we have one start in place for 2014 on the Offensive Line. Mike Pouncey. That is it. So, given that....below are the 2014 Offensive Line Free Agents, AND...the top ranked draft picks for the Offensive Line. Maybe there is a trade you think we can make. The Challenge is to put together the best potential offensive line for the 2014 season. Keep in mind our 2014 salary cap space. Also...what kind of scheme would you choose...man or zone.


    Offensive Tackles

    Eric Winston ARI
    Jeremy Trueblood ATL
    Mike Johnson ATL
    Michael Oher BAL
    Thomas Welch BUF
    Jordan Gross CAR
    Bruce Campbell CAR
    Byron Bell CAR R
    J’Marcus Webb CHI
    Jonathan Scott CHI
    Anthony Collins CIN
    Oniel Cousins CLE
    Rashad Butle r CLE
    Winston Justice DEN
    Jason Fox DET
    Marshall Newhouse GB
    Ryan Harris HOU
    Jeff Linkenbach IND
    Sam Young JAX
    Cameron Bradfield J AX R
    Branden Albert KC F
    Bryant McKinnie MIA
    Tyson Clabo MIA
    Will Svitek NE
    Zack Strief NO
    David Diehl NYG
    Austin Howard NYJ
    Jared Veldheer OAK
    Tony Pashos OAK
    Khalif Barnes OAK
    Guy Whimper PIT
    Breno Giacomini SEA
    Rodger Saffold STL


    Guards

    Mike Gibson ARI
    Travelle Wharton CAR
    Garry Williams CAR
    Chris Scott CAR
    Matt Slauson CHI
    Eben Britton CHI
    Mike Pollak CIN
    John Greco CLE
    Shawn Lauvao CLE
    Brian Waters DAL
    Zane Beadles DEN
    Dylan Gandy DET
    Wade Smith HOU
    Mike McGlynn IND
    Joe Reitz IND R
    Jon Asamoah KC
    Geoff Schwartz KC
    Ricky Henry KC R
    Richie Incognito MIA
    John Jerry MIA
    Danny Watkins MIA R
    Charlie Johnson MIN
    Seth Olsen MIN
    Tyronne Green NE
    Kevin Boothe NYG
    Willie Colon NYJ
    Vladimir Ducasse NYJ
    Andre Gurode OAK
    Chad Rinehart SD
    Rich Ohrnberger SD
    Paul McQuistan SEA
    Jason Spitz SEA
    Lemuel Jeanpierr SEA R
    Chris Williams STL
    Shelley Smith STL
    Jamon Meredith TB
    Rob Turner TEN


    Centers

    Joe Hawley ATL
    Jeff Byers CAR
    Roberto Garza CHI
    Alex Mack CLE
    Ryan Cook DAL
    Dan Koppen DEN
    Dominic Raiola DET
    Evan Dietrich-Smith GB
    Brad Meester JAX
    Joe Berger MIN
    Ryan Wendell NE
    Brian De la Puente NO
    Jim Cordle NYG
    Fernando Velasco PIT
    Cody Wallace PIT
    Jonathan Goodwin SF
    Ted Larsen TB
    Chris Spencer TEN


    DRAFT

    Jake Mathews - OT Texas A&M
    Taylor Lewman - OT Michigan
    Antonio Richardson - OT Tenn
    Cameron Irving - OT FSU
    Cyrus Kouandio - OT Alabama
    La'el Collins - G/OT LSU
    Zack Martin - G/OT Notre Dame
    Greg Robinson - OT Auburn
    Cyril Richardson - G/OT Baylor
    James Hurst - OT NC
    Gabe Jackson - Miss State - G
    Xavier Su'a-Filo - UCLA - G
    David Yankey - G/OT Stanford
    Tre Jackson - FSU
    Anthony Steen - G - Florida
    Travis Swanson - C - Arkansas
    Bryan Stork - C - FSU
    Hroniss Grasu - C - Oregon
    Weston Richberg - C - Colorado State
    James Stone - C - Tenn
     
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  2. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LT- Robinson from Auburn, LG- Let Sam Brenner and Dallas Thomas duke it out, RG- Resign John Jerry for depth, pursue Roger Saffold from the Rams, who has moved to guard from tackle and is now playing better, let them duke it out, RT- Draft or Free Agent, don't care. No RT's in the first though, please.
     
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  3. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Alright, without too much thought.

    LT: Resign Mckinnie to a one year deal.

    LG: Give Brenner a chance to start, however draft a mid round guy to battle. Not sure who, I havdnt done my research yet.

    C: Sign Alex Mack

    RG: Pouncey to RG

    RT: Resign Clabo. Draft someone to challenge as at LG.

    I think you can run any scheme at least fairly effectively that way. Minimal turnover while giving yourself a chance to improve via draft.
     
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  4. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    QB - Ryan Tannehill
    RB - Adrian Peterson
    The Rest: Profit...
     
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  5. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we should acquire any more FA linemen. Invest heavily in the position early in the draft. I would draft 3 linemen with our first 4 picks.
     
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  6. Marino1384

    Marino1384 Member

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    Originally when I saw Mack was a free agent I wanted to sign him and move pouncey however if it ain't broke don't fix it. Pouncey has been the best center in the league and idk if its worth playing him at guard since he really hasn't played guard at the nfl level.
     
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  7. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    normally, I'd be okay with that (although 2/4 would be a choice for me), with our proven track record of weak draft at OL, I'd rather shell out the money for 1 high priced Oline (tackle) and pickup a couple of mid-level guys to compete. then draft 1 or 2 more to also compete.
     
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  8. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Dallas Thomas developing would be huge.
     
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  9. MIASportsFan

    MIASportsFan New Member

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    I agree completely. Shore up the line with cheap, young, athletic talent. Versus overpriced and or past their prime FA's
     
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  10. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I'm pretty sure Pouncey would actually be a much better guard than center, which is scary.
     
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  11. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    What this year has shown is that it's more important to have an OL that works well together than to have a collection of high picks on the OL. Cogs would be considered a ton better than Breuner and even a (non-quitting) Martin would have been at least as good as a broken down Mckinnie, but Mckinnie and Breuner play together far better than Martin and Cogs.

    I would re-sign everybody but Jerry then I'd draft a T in the first (maybe Richardson, Tenn?). I'd draft another G in the top 5 rounds. I'd bring in FAs at G and T (no idea who), but they wouldn't be break the bank types. They'd be brought in to compete. My expectation is that the only replacement is RG unless the 1st round T is just so good right out of the gate to keep off the field. This coaching staff has shown a very slow trigger when it comes to trusting young players so I don't expect a ton of turnover unless players just don't re-sign. And IMO the OL as constructed could probably be as good as they've been since our winning streak started for another year or so. My main goal would be to add developing talent that can be brought along slowly. That's generally how the best OLs are built.
     
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  12. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    I am just hoping, Pouncey wont have GUARDS watching him 24/7 based on Hernandez mess!
     
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  13. Deerless Dice

    Deerless Dice Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    i think having rookies at the bookends is a terrible move. Which means Jeff Ireland will do it.
     
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  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think Bryant McKinnie played well immediately, before Richie Incognito ever got suspended.

    McKinnie has played next to Richie Incognito (NE), Nate Garner (CIN, TB, NYJ) and Sam Brenner (SD, CAR, NE). PFF gave him a +1.0 in the first NE game next to Incognito, a +4.8 in the three games he's played next to Nate Garner, and a -8.9 in the three games he's played next to Sam Brenner.

    I agree that offensive line chemistry is important but disagree with the conclusion that McKinnie and Brenner play better than McKinnie and Incognito or McKinnie and Garner. If anything, playing next to a guy as inexperienced as Brenner is really hurting Bryant McKinnie.

    It's really about both the individual talent and the chemistry. We saw IMMEDIATELY when Bryant McKinnie got here that even though he might not be a very good left tackle on a league-wide basis, he was far and away better than Jonathan Martin. It wasn't even close. The difference was noticeable and immediate.

    At the same time, "Bad McKinnie" is more likely to show up when he's got to bail the water of an undrafted rookie like Sam Brenner constantly. At the same time, Sam Brenner would have been a lot worse in that latest NE game if he hadn't had a veteran like Bryant McKinnie to help him along. That's where the chemistry is important.

    When it comes to the offensive line, you're usually talking about the worst athletes in the game...so the differentiation is relatively small from one guy to the next. You draft high when you see talent that actually does differentiate. I think Mike Pouncey is a good example. His movement ability makes him unique and highly differentiated from the crowd at his (relatively low impact) position.

    I think at tackle is where you're more likely to see the differentiation that could translate a lot more on the football field. That's where you're going after a Taylor Lewan or Cyrus Kouandjio, someone like that all the way up in the 1st round.

    I think a good mix of veterans and young people is probably the way to go here. I don't think of that as reinventing the wheel or anything. It makes sense.
     
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  15. MIASportsFan

    MIASportsFan New Member

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    It's worked for the Bears this year
     
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  16. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You've got to have tackles you can put on an island, and you've got to have guys who can hit all the blocks on outside zone plays. It's fairly evidence this coaching staff is going to plow forward regardless if they've got the players to do those things or not, so I think you've really got to sit down and expend the resources.

    I think you've got to look at signing Brandon Albert or Jordan Gross at Left Tackle, and then taking a hard look at the guys on the roster.

    You know Mike Pouncey fits. You know Sam Brenner fits. If you think you've figured out wtf was wrong with Tyson Clabo that has improved late in the season, I think you see if you can re-sign him for another year more cheaply.
     
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  17. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think there's any way in hell this team could draft Taylor Lewan after the Richie Incognito thing.

    The guy might be Richie and Jake Long's test tube love child clone.
     
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  18. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Id like to sign Geoff Schwartz, Roger Saffold and Jared Veldheer, draft a RT. Schwartz and Saffold have had under the radar good years across the board. No sacks allowed by either and good run blocking and pass blocking metrics. Veldheer is coming off a serious triceps tear so I think he may get less then he really should to be honest. The biggest thing is whether Oakland franchises him or not. Hes a much better player then Albert or Gross in my opinion and younger. Resign McKinnie as a swing tackle. Zane Beadles would be a nice depth signing

    LT: Veldheer (McKinnie)
    LG: Schwartz (Beadles)
    C: Pouncey (Brenner)
    RG: Saffold (Beadles)
    RT: Draft pick (maybe 2 of them...Plus McKinnie)
     
  19. Deerless Dice

    Deerless Dice Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The Bears right side is composed of rookies, but their left tackle is the former Saint Jermon Bushrod
     
  20. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    I would not be surprised in Roger Scaffold at LT is the FA and the drafted OT is later round developmental guy.
     
  21. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think I know what you're referring to about Lewan and while I'm not keen on dismissing it, I think it's a bit early in the process to just start wiping guys off the draft board because of an ugly incident that boils down literally to a he-said/she-said thing.
     
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  22. Deerless Dice

    Deerless Dice Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't see Veldheer leaving the Raiders. Oakland has a ton of cap room and they need to spend it on somebody.
     
  23. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not saying this is what I'd want, but I could easily see Miami going into 2014 with a line of:

    LT - Dallas Thomas
    LG - Sam Brenner
    C - Mike Pouncey
    RG - John Jerry
    RT - Tyson Clabo/Nate Garner

    Ideally, I'd like to sign Branden Albert and see a line look like:

    LT - Branden Albert
    LG - Dallas Thomas/Sam Brenner
    C - Mike Pouncey
    RG - John Jerry/Sam Brenner/John Urschel
    RT - JuWuan James/Tyson Clabo
     
  24. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There's the part where he may have called up the woman whom accused his roommate of rape and threatened to rape her himself, but then there's also the part where he got pissed because his team was getting waxed in a rivalry game and repeatedly face-masked opposing players after the whistle blew. Both of those things are pretty Incognito-like.
     
  25. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension
    LT-Cedric Ogbuehli LG-Brenner/Thomas C-Pouncey RG-Zach Martin RT-Billy Turner

    young and athletic, big and slow need not apply.
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yes that's the incident I'm aware of and like I said it literally boils down to a he-said/she-said because I believe he denies ever having said that, and it's too early to just emphatically wipe a guy off the board because of that accusation. As for the facemask penalties, that barely even registers unless it gets to Vontaze Burfict levels. And even then, that stuff didn't end up mattering all that much with Burfict.
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    In free agency I would give strong consideration to a plan that involves targeting Anthony Collins and Rodger Saffold.

    1. The first part of the plan would be doing everything you can to secure Anthony Collins as a free agent. Simply put, you've got to estimate the market on him, then beat it.

    I was lukewarm on Collins coming out of Kansas. That means there were times I liked him, potentially even as a 1st rounder, but there were things I didn't like about him. I consistently had him as one of Miami's top potential targets at tackle on Day 1 of that draft...but there were issues. From chest down he played exactly as you'd want in a left tackle prospect. I think he has long arms, but he didn't use them well and that was something that bothered me at times.

    I caught back up to him some time I think around 2012 (see: THIS THREAD), taking a look at his 2009, 2010 and 2011 work at right tackle for the Bengals. I came away convinced that he's a guy Miami should pursue in free agency. He made strides in how he used his hands. His lower body explosion was fantastic.

    The Bengals re-signed him for a mear $2.8 million over 2 years. And worse, that was for him to be a backup to Andre Smith and Andrew Whitworth. Andre Smith has finally rounded out as a decent right tackle but I think you can make a case that Collins would have been better. Whitworth is genuinely one of the best left tackles in the NFL. So if you want to know why this guy will be able to leave Cincinnati, this is why. They drafted Andre Smith real high and he's become decent. Whitworth is one of the best in in the business. That's why Anthony Collins could escape.

    Fast forward and over 2012 and 2013 he's been playing primarily left tackle in place of Whitworth when he leaves the field. He's been even better there than he was at right tackle. He is playing left tackle currently in place of Whitworth and has the BEST pass block efficiency in football through 240 pass plays (98.1). This is not terribly surprising. He played 80 pass snaps in 2011 and had a 99.1 pass bock efficiency (at right tackle). He played 146 pass snaps in 2010 and had a 98.5 PBE (at right tackle).

    I agree with Disgustipate in that Miami's coaching staff seems like they're going to plow forward with the things they want to do regardless of the personnel and so you have to start getting them the guys that can do these things and Anthony Collins is a GREAT first step in doing that because of his lower body explosion.


    2. The second part of the plan involves making a heavy run at Rodger Saffold in free agency.

    I wasn't just lukewarm on Rodger Saffold coming out of the draft. I was firmly in the tank for him. I didn't necessarily think him a top 5 or top 10 kind of guy, but he was a guy I noticed right away in Shrine practice even though I'd never watched him play at Indiana to that point. From then, the more Indiana tape I could get hold of, the better. He was very fun to watch. Very smooth athlete with great natural strength, and he's a good technician.

    Health has been a big issue for him in his NFL career and that's something you need to watch for. The Rams felt like they had an opportunity this off season to grab Jake Long at a reduced price and I can't blame them. That ended up being a great value for them. Unfortunately it bent Rodger Saffold's nose the wrong way because he wasn't keen on the idea of moving to right tackle.

    The Rams went ahead and made that move of Saffold to right tackle and he got hurt in the second game. Coming back from the injury they had him in as a part-timer. Now, I have not had a chance to dissect his tape, but what is interesting to me is that starting in Week 10 they moved him to right guard and since then he has been getting huge PFF grades. He's got a +9.0 in his 5 games at that spot, which would give him +28.8 over a 16 game season.

    I'm not totally shocked because the guy is a very balanced, technically sound athlete with good core strength. I expect him to do well wherever they put him, truth be told.

    But the idea of him playing his best football at right guard interests me. He's not a rabbit as far as his mobility goes. Again I haven't dissected the tape of him at right guard but I don't imagine I'm going to find him pulling and releasing out to the second level and looking like Mike Pouncey. I expect him to do it well because he's a good athlete but I don't expect him to stand out. The question is whether that's what we need in the guy that sits to Mike Pouncey's right shoulder. I don't think it is. I think because of Pouncey's strengths you want to use him a certain way, and need someone next to him that that balances out the dynamic.

    I would make a hard run at Rodger Saffold. I don't have a problem beating the market on him because in addition to being a good all around player, I believe he's also a good character from what I remember in my draft research. Collins is a little more questionable that way but the upside is there if you can get Collins to be your left tackle.


    3. The big question that I don't know that anyone can answer is what you do after you grab them.

    The benefit of getting two versatile athletes like Rodger Saffold and Anthony Collins is that you head into the draft with OPTIONS. And you should always head into a draft with options. You can't just sit here and peg, in DECEMBER, which guys you're coming out of the draft with. And you shouldn't do that in March (when free agency happens), either.

    If you need to play Anthony Collins at right tackle you can play him at right tackle. If you need to play him at left tackle you can do that. Rodger Saffold can play any of four positions on the offensive line. I think in an ideal world you'd find that Anthony Collins can be your long term left tackle and Rodger Saffold your long term right guard. But sometimes we don't live in that world.

    By grabbing these two guys you really don't have to force a tackle in the 1st round wherever Miami ends up picking. If you find in your digging that Taylor Lewan truly is as scummy as one incident in his past makes him look, then there's no need to force the issue. If you love Billy Turner or Wesley Johnson but not quite in the 1st round and there are players available at that pick at other positions that you just know for a fact will be bigger impact players than them, so be it. No need to force it. You have options.

    Some guys that I really like in the draft include Jake Matthews (LT/RT), Greg Robinson (LT), Cyrus Kouandjio (LT), Wesley Johnson (LT/LG), Billy Turner (LT/LG), Taylor Lewan (LT/LG), Ja'Wuan James (RT), Seantrel Henderson (RT) and Cyril Richardson (RG). I don't have any clue whether Josue Matias (LG) or Arie Kouandjio (LG) plan on coming out. If they do, I like them. I think all of the above play as rookies.

    Thing is you don't want to force the issue with any of them. If you feel like your 1st round pick is stuck in a hole where you missed the top of that list and don't yet like the next tier, you have enough options to hold off and go for your best available players.
     
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  28. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Lol....I kinda like having the brawling biker mentality on the line
     
  29. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Well, Burfict went undrafted and he certainly had the talent to warrant a draft pick, so something mattered. I don't think there is any real way to say precisely what mattered and what didn't.
     
  30. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension
    I would think Marshall Newhouse, Ryan Harris, Seth Olson, Evan Dietrech-Smith would be sought for their experience in a ZBS.
     
  31. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    Scrap the zone blocking scheme.

    If we could sign Veldheer that would be great, but I have a feeling he won't even make it to free agency. Same with Eugene Monroe. Gotta sign a starting guard and a tackle (right or left) in free agency at minimum. the other tackle will come with our 1st pick in the draft. It's easier to find a RT in free agency, so I gave us one from there.

    LT - Kouandjio or Tiny Richardson
    LG - Geoff Schwartz
    C - Pouncey
    RT - Zach Streif

    As for RG, let a handful of players compete for this spot, whether it's a draft pick (like a Seantreal Henderson, who I would pounce on in the mid rounds if he fell, way too much potential to pass up there), or a vet we signed in FA, or a current player on the roster (this option is obviously last resort).
     
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  32. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension
    Might want to see what the availability and asking price for Matt Tobin is as well.
     
  33. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Awsome stuff CK...gonna go watch some tape on both players.

    What I am getting from both you and Gusti...is, its not so much getting the best over all players or talent on the line...its the best group of guys that can work together in unison. It seems like a case...where....money doenst buy you the best line. This is the one place....scouting pays off.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think it always has been true that fit, chemistry and coaching are way more important on the offensive line than 3rd party concepts of "talent" (which translates into price tags).

    Talent is important too. This isn't an argument against grabbing talent high when you can identify it. I had David DeCastro as a 1st round possibility for Miami and I'd have given the money to keep Jake Long.

    I just think you have to operate with awareness that the fit, coaching and chemistry are probably going to determine at least as much as the 3rd party measures of "talent".
     
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  35. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't know where he's likely to fall in the process, but it's hard not for me to watch Cameron Erving block the outside zone and be really enthusiastic about it.
     
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Smooth player that would probably fit this scheme. Not necessarily a great athlete. I still have more to look at with him. Sometimes I ask myself if liking him is going to get me Jonathan Martin'd again.
     
  37. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    Serious question, are Stanford players going to be rated lower for Miami from now on?
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Huh. I suppose it's a good question. I'm not sure I would agree with it though.

    I don't know of any other Stanford players that have gone on to be softies like Jonathan Martin. In fact Richard Sherman is pretty much the exact opposite.
     
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  39. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    So it sounds like the general assumption is that Turner will be back next year as the OL coach?
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't know that I've seen anyone in this thread comment on the issue.

    I have no idea if he'll be back or not.
     

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