Can we please stop blaming Ireland now?

What I find disingenuous is there's always this push from some people against the opinions of what they deem to be "amateurs", when those opinions differ from that of the team. The team knows better. They're privy to things we aren't. They're the professionals. None of us get paid for this (or those that do get paid for this, that still doesn't count). This is a very widely accepted sentiment and it's a big part of fan discussion board culture.

Then those very same people turn around and defend the makers of these decisions by pointing out that there was widespread agreement from the fans with a move back when it was made.

This is a contradiction.

What is actually NOT a contradiction at all is for the fans to generally agree with moves as they're made because they want to be optimistic and they generally recognize the professionals know way more than they do, and then they turn around and criticize those moves when they didn't pan out. That's not contradictory at all. It's perfectly logical. They placed their trust in people that made a bad move. They trusted that they knew what they were doing and so they agreed with it and saw all the positives while dismissing the risks...and it turned out those people didn't know what they were doing, so now they're criticized. That makes a lot of sense.

There seems to be this push sometimes where anyone that is criticizing, their criticism is invalid unless they think and can prove that they personally could have done better. That's a self-serving fallacy meant only to insulate those in power from often deserved criticism.

 

If anyone is blaming Ireland for Long, Bush, Davis, Smith, Marshall, Dansby, then your clearly biased in the situation..

Some folks who want Ireland gone yet think with all those players we'd be a much better team then your anger should be directed towards the coach, cause he's the one who didn't want those players.

 

we drafted a QB that was converted to WR to get on the field and fill a need. he continued to attend the QB meetings and never stop working as a QB. and coaching staff is almost always up to the head coach to fill. as for Ireland not having a chance because of Philbin..that is a head scratcher, I really don't think the coach (Sparano or Philbin) has any say over Ireland. they make suggestions as to who they would like but the bottom line is the final call is Irelands

 

Virtually no evidence for this assertion. Particularly with respect to Jake Long, Reggie Bush, Sean Smith and Karlos Dansby. And only SCANT evidence at best with respect to Vontae Davis, along with a whole lot of plain video evidence that the idea to trade Vontae originated with Jeff Ireland and that he merely asked Joe Philbin if he thought it was OK and Philbin acquiesced.

 

Very little evidence, if any, to support this.

 

absolutely. I think if it were not for the coaching that has been done this team would not be 8-7. Sundays game was a stinker all around and that includes the coaching so I'm on them for that but I'm not ready to throw them under the bus just yet

 

Remember that Philbin was the fourth or fifth choice of head coach. We wanted Harbaugh, Cowher, Chuckie, Fisher. We settled for Philbin. No one else we wanted wanted the job.

Ireland was left over from The Tuna debacle. No one went out and hired him.

It is what it is for a reason.

 

Maybe now that Tannehill has demonstrated that he has some talent we can attract a good coach.

 

WADR to people and their opinions its pretty safe to say that no one knows who wanted this or that guy gone. The only thing to be said with any degree of certainty is that there was a concerted effort to sign younger players at the expense of letting older guys go. All of the multi year deals went to younger guys, Wallace, Hartine, Gibson, Misi, Jones, Ellerbe, Wheeler. Grimes, Keller and Starks all got 1 yr deals. IMO that's a pattern not a coincidence.

 

You really are a piece of work.

For the 2nd time, Ireland's job description according to the media guide:
In his role with the Dolphins, Ireland is not only responsible for overseeing and coordinating the college and pro personnel departments, but also helps manage the team’s salary cap and player contracts. He supervises all scouting efforts that relate to the college draft, free agency, the Canadian Football League, and personnel of the other 31 NFL teams. Ireland works hand in hand with Head Coach Joe Philbin in implementing a personnel plan to build the Dolphins into a championship caliber team.

Aponte:
Aponte works closely with General Manager Jeff Ireland and Head Coach Joe Philbin on football administrative matters and serves as the team’s chief contract negotiator. She is responsible for the management and strategic planning of the Dolphins salary cap, negotiating and drafting player contracts and overseeing the football operations budgets. Aponte also serves as the team’s liaison on league affairs.

 

Chief contract negotiator = highest authority on negotiating contracts.

Contract helper = helps Aponte.

The language you're providing explicitly says Aponte has more authority than Ireland regarding contract negotiations.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

He has input on contracts, and it also says he has authority on personnel. Can you please stop arguing to the contrary on the latter? Please?

 

and that I believe is the root of all that ails this team. I'm not sure that Ireland gets what Philbin is looking for, I don't think there is cohesion in that relationship. so now the question is do you get rid of the young coach with upside or do you get rid of the GM that has put mediocre talent on the field consistently since he arrived. or, more dramatically, do you once again after just 2 years scrap it all and start from scratch?

 

What it boils down to is that fans play the result, they judge decisions based on whether they work out or not whereas the people making the decisions don't have that luxury. Grimes was a good signing, Wheeler was not. That's completely disingenuous not to mention short sighted.

This isn't a defense of Ireland or anyone else. Michael Thomas made two huge plays vs NE but let's be honest, he was signed to chase punts and kickoffs, there was little or no thought given to how he'd perform as a slot corner. The coaches had absolutely zero intention of playing him on defense and I assume Ireland felt the same way. In short that that wasn't a "good move" it was merely a move that happened to produce positive results.

The reality is that some moves pan out and some don't. The disingenuous part is singling out individual choices and judging them based on info that was unavailable at the time they were made.

 

That's totally ridiculous. EVERYONE in EVERY job is judged by the results, not the process. If you guess wrong often enough as an NFL GM, you lose your job. Just like if you make the wrong call often enough at ANY job, you lose it.
It's not just the fans that don't care about the process, it's also the owners. They care about results.

 

No accountability? Your entire basis for supporting Jeff Ireland screams a lack of accountability. Apparently, he's not accountable for all his bad moves, overspending in free agency. Heck, he's not even accountable for not being professional in the way he does his job.

 

What's the common thread on why we didn't land Harbaugh, Cowher, Chuckie, or Jeff Fisher? None of them wanted to work with an incompetent GM in Jeff Ireland.

 

I guess the theory being it's not Ireland's fault that Philbin and staff cannot make good chicken salad out of...well, you know...

 

hmmm that sounds familiar, now just were have I heard that before...

 

First one I heard say it was Gary Stevens. Wonder how he is going these days btw? It was a joke when he got replaced by Kippy Brown. As bad as any OC in team history.

 

lol yea I knew who said that. it was just funny as it would seem we are in the exact same boat 14 years later. wasn't that another of Wanny's wonderful works? run Marino out, run Ricky out, run Stevens out.. and what did he replace them with?

 

Jimmy replaced Stevens with Kippy.

 

I knew it was around that time, it was such a blurr then

 

I posted this in the other IReland thread but ill post it here too

Ireland is a bad face of the franchise but please for the love of god stop acting like everything he has done has been horrible. We have one of the best and deepest defensive lines in the league. We actually have a pretty damn good secondary that he is mostly responsible for finding acorns with 2 late round guys who are starting at safety and a 5th round pick that is getting significant time at corner in Nolan Carroll and Dmitri Patterson was a pretty good addition last year.

The linebackers are obviously absolutely piss poor and that is his fault, i will give you that. The play out of those 2 have been completely unacceptable but to ignore all the positive talent he has put around this team is stupid.

He has given us our franchise QB and that seems pretty apparent at this point./ He finally had the balls out of all our decision makers since Marino retired to take a QB in the first round.

So much is made of his drafting but if you ask me it has been pretty damn solid, especially finding late round impact players which is exactly what you need if you want to build a team with depth. Since 2010 we have found a ridiculously good amount of late round picks that are making a terrific contribution. Miller, Matthews, Clay, Jimmy Wilson, Rashad Jones, Chris Clemons, Hartline are 7 guys drafted in the 4th round or later that are starters or play a significant role. That is good drafting, every team makes mistakes. Hell go look at the patriots drafting record the last 5 years. The reason everyone thinks they are so good is because they somehow load up with tons of early picks every year. Yes, we have made several bad picks but name me a team that hasn't.

Overall as far as the team itself I think Ireland has built a solid team that is capable of contending as well as having good building blocks for the future. We have what it take to win, Franchise QB and ability to get a great pass rush as well as a shut down CB and capable secondary.

Obviously I will give you that our offensive line is absolutely pitiful and that does fall on him but I would give him another year to rebuild it as well as rebuild the linebacking core and see where we are next year with another year of development for Tannehill as well as Dion Jordan taking on a bigger role.

All this aside, I would completely understand firing him because he is an awful face of the franchise and doesn't seem to quite get this point, but to act as if his personnel choices have been completely awful and the team is a complete disaster is just not true.

 

. Just to preface, it may look like I'm defending Ireland overall, but only in this obvious context am I.

There's plenty of evidence....." Scant" evidence at best?, wow...not gonna even argue that one..if what happened with Vontae wasn't enough for you to think the coach had something to do with the release, ummm..ok, sure man..

Jake long leaving had nothing to do with Jeff Ireland, Ireland was willing to pony up plenty of cash ...it was damn obvious jake wanted off this team, after a year of playing for this staff, he wanted out, why the hell would he care about the GM...Jake plays football he doesn't give a sh$) about the suits.

Reggie bush...Ireland went out and signed bush when he took over for Parcells, why in the hell after what Reggie brought to the table, Would Ireland not want him back? well, watching interviews all last year, it became apparent to me that Philbin was going to move on from Reggie..Reggie's weakness is Philbins biggest pet peave..

Karlos Dansby did not respect Philbin imo,I stated several times that Philbin could not look Dansby in the eye, and because of dansbys nature that wasn't gonna fly, the interviews I heard after his release by Dansby was enough confirmation to me..Ireland signed the guy to one of the biggest linebacker contracts ever, why would anyone think he had a problem with Ireland..

Marshall is a no brainer..

Sean smith...I saw a scene on the sideline with Sean smith where Philbin questioned smiths toughness, some took it as a joke, I certainly did not, there was real disgust on the coaches part..and considering smith tackles like a feather wouldn't be suprised if the recommendation to go in a different direction wasn't from the coach after watching a year of average to poor tape on the player.

I understand some criticisms for Ireland, but to put these players departures on him after what we witnessed and know seems like a witch hunt..

To not see the point of view and to put it all on Ireland with acknowledging, seems shady at best.

 

I don't necessarily buy this logic. Bush was going to get expensive and, although Ireland traded for him, Jeff also had a replacement that he had acquired himself. Miller was an opton as a replacement and if he worked out that would reflect well on Ireland as well.

 

Think of what DJ is saying though. He's saying that if you blame any of those PERSONNEL moves on the head of PERSONNEL then you're just biased, as it's clear those were Joe Philbin moves. There's no evidence of this, really at all. And yes you do absolutely need evidence if you're going to suddenly theorize that the head of personnel had no control over personnel moves.

 

These guys are absolutely paid to show foresight and to get results. I don't see at all this move to make them completely free of judgment based on results.

 

Because you can't. There's DIRECT VIDEO EVIDENCE, captured on Hard Knocks, that Jeff Ireland fielded phone calls from Ryan Grigson who called about Vontae Davis and that Ireland negotiated the price up for him as best he could and then asked Philbin what he thought of the idea of trading him. Philbin acquiesced to it. Just because Philbin wasn't thrilled with Vontae's progress doesn't mean he directed Vontae to be traded. That's pure BS.

Jake's leaving had a lot to do with how much money they offered him and when they offered it. Money talks. Jake had two offers on the table and he chose St. Louis' offer. But you could easily change that equation by raising the offer, or structuring it differently.

Base speculation at best. Ireland has signed many players that he either went on to cut or didn't ask back. He's the head of personnel. He made a personnel choice.

Not one bit of evidence here. Not one. A look in Philbin's eye? Seriously? Come on. Bull sh-t. The head of personnel made a personnel move. PERIOD.

Not really. But you choose to believe so despite Philbin saying many times that he never coached Marshall and therefore made no judgments about him, or other reports that moving Marshall was in the works before they even hired a head coach. There's evidence the other way as well. Difference is YOU say it's a no-brainer, while I correctly assess that it's a situation with evidence going both directions and therefore we don't know for sure.

...lol.

A witch hunt to make the head of personnel answerable for personnel moves. Riiiiiiiiiight.

 

Answerable to whom??? Who here has the authority to make any decisions regarding the employment of anyone in the organization? What exactly are you intimating when you say you want to make someone "answerable"???

 

Uhhh...what?

Perhaps you should take a sedative. You need to relax dude. We're talking about message board debates.

 

"Authority", again, is pretty ambiguous. His job description is pretty clear that he has full authority over the pro and college personnel departments. It is also pretty clear that him and the head coach both are in charge of implementing a "personnel plan". There is really nothing that indicates Jeff Ireland can sign or cut anyone he wants to. The extent of his "full authority" is how the scouting departments operate. That obviously is going to play a major role in personnel acquisition, but it does not equate to complete control.

 

It seems the desire to hold someone accountable is taking precedent over finding out what actually has happened.

 

So, what candidates are out there that we can replace Ireland with? It seems we have lists of all of these candidates but none of them ever become GMs. They just wait until whoever they work for leaves and take up that position. I don't want to fire Jeff just for the sake of firing Jeff and hire someone even worse. We can't just go to Walmart and pick up a GM of equal or greater value.